Yet Another Feeding Question - FULL VIV SETUP DETAILS INCLUDED

Hello All,

My normal ball python Louis never used to be a finicky eater. I got him from a reptile show from a breeder just about two years ago the day after he hatched. (His second birthday is October 15!) He was always fed live rats from a great local pet store -- he started on pinkies and moved his way up to his current diet of small adult rats without ever having to switch to mice, and would eat every Friday without a doubt.

The trouble started when that pet store closed and I was forced to switch him to frozen-thawed from Petsmart. Every time I tried feeding him a F/T rat was a hit or miss. Sometimes he would eat it, but most of the time he would not. I started decreasing his feeding intervals to once every two weeks, but I was still experiencing hit or miss results, so I eventually moved to just once a month. (I know, not nearly enough. But even then he would STILL only eat them a portion of the time.) I tried plenty of methods with the F/T rats, from heating them up with a hair dryer to make them extra hot to giving them a hot-water bath just before feeding, dangling with tongs or leaving it there for him to find. About 30% of the time he eats it, and the other 70% the $11.99 rat goes in the trash.

I drove about an hour to another town to get him a live rat yesterday, but he wouldn't strike at it all when I offered it to him around 10:30 p.m. in a darkened room. He would get very close to it and stick his tongue out like he was interested, but every time the rat got close to him he recoiled in fear and eventually retreated back to his hide, so I removed the rat. Can a BP forget how to hunt? It's been about a year since he was offered live.

VIV SETUP:

Enclosure: Exo-Terra Extra-Long Low Viv

Substrate: Coconut Fiber

Temperatures:

• HOT SIDE:

1. Exo-Terra Large Size UTH with a Vivarium Electronics VE-100 thermostat hooked up to it. The thermostat probe is sandwiched between the UTH and the glass of the tank and is set at a constant 92 degrees F.
2. I use a 60W ceramic heat emitter over his hide in the cooler months, and the temperature is measured by a probe thermometer placed at substrate level inside his hide.
3. The lowest this side ever gets is 85 and the hottest is 93. He spends most of the daytime there while it is generally 90-91 degrees.

• COOL SIDE:

1. Another hide with a 100w ceramic heat emitter placed over it. (Only turned on at night to prevent a dramatic night drop.)
2. Same probe thermometer as other side -- lowest it ever gets is 77, highest is 85.

Humidity: I use a Crane humidifier outside the viv rigged into it with plastic hosing. It does an excellent job at keeping the humidity between 55-65% and offers me great control to up humidity to the mid-70's during a shed. Measured with probe hygrometers placed inside both hides at substrate level.

Extras: Obviously I have two almost-identical hides on either side of the tank, a large water dish in the center big enough for soaking, and lots of fake vines to make Louis feel extra safe and secure.

My research on husbandry yields so many mixed results that it's hard to tell if my temperatures and other viv aspects are really ideal, but I'm pretty sure they are which is why I'm so confused. He sheds beautifully, always in one nice piece, drinks plenty of water and pees several times a week. So why won't he eat? I thought that offering him a live rat would surely remedy the problem, but we're going on about a month without a feed and my concern is growing by the day.

I tried assist-feeding him once, but he refused to open his mouth and started thrashing the back end of his body around trying to wriggle away from me every time I pushed it against his snout. His reaction seemed like he was so scared I couldn't bring myself to try it again, and don't see why I should have to because he should be eating!

The one thing I really don't want to hear is that "it's normal for them to go off feed for a few months." Because one thing that most experts agree on is that it's not. A healthy snake with the proper viv setup should be eating regularly, and that's all I want for my little boy.

Any and all help is much appreciated, thanks in advance.

How much does he weigh? I know when I was having trouble with my 1500g female, I found that giving her live small weaned rats (40g) worked best as she too was scared of larger ones. That got her eating again and I was eventually able to increase the prey size.

And there's plenty of people on here that have a large collection of BPs and sometimes they do just stop eating. Not sure what experts you're referring to that believe this is not normal.


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I agree that my saying all experts agree is a sweeping generlization -- my apologies. Just like with any topic there is plenty of conflicting information.

And I actually don't have a scale for him but I will pick one up today and get back with a report.

So just to be clear, you were feeding smaller live rats, correct? Not F/T?

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Originally Posted by BPGator

How much does he weigh? I know when I was having trouble with my 1500g female, I found that giving her live small weaned rats (40g) worked best as she too was scared of larger ones. That got her eating again and I was eventually able to increase the prey size.

And there's plenty of people on here that have a large collection of BPs and sometimes they do just stop eating. Not sure what experts you're referring to that believe this is not normal.


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Meant to reply with quote, my bad.

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Originally Posted by BPGator

How much does he weigh? I know when I was having trouble with my 1500g female, I found that giving her live small weaned rats (40g) worked best as she too was scared of larger ones. That got her eating again and I was eventually able to increase the prey size.

And there's plenty of people on here that have a large collection of BPs and sometimes they do just stop eating. Not sure what experts you're referring to that believe this is not normal.


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What he said. I think there are lots experts that would agree that it can and does happen.

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Originally Posted by cletus

What he said. I think there are lots experts that would agree that it can and does happen.

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I understand my mistake, I made a big generalization that was inaccurate.

With that said, is it perhaps normal then for him to just not want to eat right now? And if so, for how long before I should get concerned?

In my case, when I bought her she was on live rats. I tried to convert her to F/T but she never took. When I then tried to do live so she would eat she was scared of the rat. I then tried the small weaned rat and she finally ate. She's eaten well ever since, except for when she's in shed. She's very shy and typically prefers the rat walks into her hide and that's when she strikes.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by BPGator

In my case, when I bought her she was on live rats. I tried to convert her to F/T but she never took. When I then tried to do live so she would eat she was scared of the rat. I then tried the small weaned rat and she finally ate. She's eaten well ever since, except for when she's in shed. She's very shy and typically prefers the rat walks into her hide and that's when she strikes.


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Thank you for the detailed account, very helpful.

I'll give that a try and see what happens next week. I don't mind driving a distance once a week to buy him live so long as he eats!

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Originally Posted by b.rt

I understand my mistake, I made a big generalization that was inaccurate.

With that said, is it perhaps normal then for him to just not want to eat right now? And if so, for how long before I should get concerned?

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Yeah I walked away from the computer before I submitted. Had I seen your reply afterwards I wouldn't have posted. Didn't mean to dogpile on you. lol
As long as you keep your husbandry right and he isn't losing too much weight I think he will be ok. It looks like your husbandry is pretty good based on what you posted.
He will eat when he is ready. I haven't experienced a serious hunger strike yet. I'm sure I will freak when it happens. lol There are lot's of good threads about this very topic. Lot's of
people that have delt with it for years.

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Originally Posted by cletus

Yeah I walked away from the computer before I submitted. Had I seen your reply afterwards I wouldn't have posted. Didn't mean to dogpile on you. lol
As long as you keep your husbandry right and he isn't losing too much weight I think he will be ok. It looks like your husbandry is pretty good based on what you posted.
He will eat when he is ready. I haven't experienced a serious hunger strike yet. I'm sure I will freak when it happens. lol There are lot's of good threads about this very topic. Lot's of
people that have delt with it for years.

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Haha, no problem.

And I know there's plenty of threads on the topic but I just wanted to post my own so I could include my husbandry because without that no one would have any idea where to begin helping.

Thanks for your advice :)

Can you define this

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small adult rats

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with an average weight.

And how much doe your BP weighs?

And PLEASE DON"T DO THIS

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I tried assist-feeding him once

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You do not assist or force an animals that knows how to eat no matter how frustrated his refusals are to you.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Can you define this with an average weight.

And how much doe your BP weighs?

And PLEASE DON"T DO THIS You do not assist or force an animals that knows how to eat no matter how frustrated his refusals are to you.

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I'm going to buy a scale on my way home from work and will post rat and snake weights ASAP.

And I didn't EVER plan on doing it again. His response was enough to tell me that it was a bad idea!

Okay everyone,

Louis is just a little over three feet long and weighs 970 grams.

The live rat I have right now weighed in about 150 grams. It was a bit hard to get an exact reading holding him by tail :p

I think his F/T rats I usually buy are probably closer to 100-120 grams cause they're a bit smaller than this live guy.

I'm just so concerned because the vast majority of my research says that "an eating python is a happy python" and I just want him happy.

Should I keep the rat for a few days and try again or let it go outside? I feel bad keeping it in a box on the porch.

Well the size of the rat for starter are way too big for a male, while he is capable of eating them does not mean he should. Over feeding is a common issue with those animals.

If you want a BP that feed with consistency you want to feed smaller prey once a week, males even at 1500 grams don't need anything larger than than a 80 grams rat and of course when fed too much it sooner or later catches up and they will fast.

Also around 800/1000 grams BP will reach what we call the wall and tend to skip meals or fast.

Finally depending on where you live tempertures may already start to drop causing changes in BP'S behaviour.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Well the size of the rat for starter are way too big for a male, while he is capable of eating them does not mean he should. Over feeding is a common issue with those animals.

If you want a BP that feed with consistency you want to feed smaller prey once a week, males even at 1500 grams don't need anything larger than than a 80 grams rat and of course when fed too much it sooner or later catches up and they will fast.

Also around 800/1000 grams BP will reach what we call the wall and tend to skip meals or fast.

Finally depending on where you live tempertures may already start to drop causing changes in BP'S behaviour.

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Deborah,

Thank you for the guidance, I'll let this rat go!

I live in upstate New York, so right now is when our seasons are really changing, and we are experiencing significant temperature drops. Do you think that the weather coupled with his weight could just mean he's in a healthy fast?

And if so, how long should he fast for before I should start to worry?