2 Part Question: BP Shed and Poop

My little Beep is having his shed, and it looks like he's going to need a little help. I helped him out a little last night. But during one bit he jerked away as if it hurt him, but then came back and pressed against my fingers. After a little bit he seemed overwhelmed or overstimulated and wanted to hide. I kept a wet towel on him under a lamp, and the shed was loose in some places, but more firm in others. It's coming off in pieces rather than all together.

When I was helping him take it off, I was peeling it off him. I was trying to go head to tail, but some pieces of it went backwards. I tried my best doing it slowly and carefully so I didn't take out any scales, but around his neck and head he kept pulling himself away after I'd get ahold of some of the skin. After two times of this, I gave up with that and put him back. Currently he's sitting in his hide still half in his skin.

Secondly... He seems to have nothing against pooping on me. Is this a sign of stress? I've heard that snakes poop when stressed, but I've also heard this is a rumor resulting from anthropomorphizing them, and that it's actually because they are relaxed. He seems more apt to sit and chill on me when he's had a good poop. Sometimes he will fall asleep directly after.

1. What are his temps and humidity like in his setup? When did your ball python start his shed? You should give him 24 hours to see if he can manage it on his own. If he's having trouble, there's a couple things you can do that are less involved than picking him up and peeling the skin on your own. These include: switching to a tub setup, covering 3/4 of the mesh screen on your tank with a sheet of acrylic or other plastic or offering him a humid hide box made out of an opaque tupperware. Shedding is already stressful on snakes, so you're probably compounding it on a baby ball python by picking him up and handling him.

If none of these methods work for you, then should you consider intervening by hand. It's easier if you let him soak for 20-30 minutes in a small tub with a couple holes for air poked in it. I've found that the skin comes off easier afterwards, especially if you use rubber thimbles for extra traction:
https://www.amazon.ca/Swingline-Rubb.../dp/B00007LB0H

2. For the poop thing, a lot of animals use poop as a defence mechanism or as a reaction to a stressful situation. I can't think of a way that you could link that behaviour to humans (I know I don't really poop on things that stress or threaten me). Or you could have the luck of picking him up as he needs to go.

His temp is normal. I spray his enclosure and hides down, but not to the point where it's damp and can mold. Just before shed I have him a lukewarm bath and let him sit there for a bit, however the ceramic sink bottom was cold despite the warm water so he was trying to escape... So I didn't keep him in very long.

he seemed alright when I held him in the water though. I worry about cutting off the oxygen supply to his tank by covering the top, however I read a damp pillow case or towel under a lamp works as well. I did attempt that. It's been over 30 hours now and some of his shed is still stuck. A lot of it came off with a paper towel.

peeling was not a process I thought would be fun for him. And I am worried he's going to hate me. But bacteria can fester under the loose skin...

as as far as pooping goes, he doesn't generally show signs of stress, so I'm trying to see if he has hidden signs and is just harder to read...

Also...

When I feel anxious or whenever I experience fight/flight, generally speaking I have to void my bowels. I get cramps under stress and gassy. And I imagine that this response might be normal.

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Originally Posted by KingWheatley

...Just before shed I have him a lukewarm bath and let him sit there for a bit, ...

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I'm a completely new BP owner and am going through a bad shed right now too. Maybe the more knowledgeable will tell me if I'm right or wrong on this but I've heard you should only soak if there is a problem. Soaking him before a shed may actually make things worse because it washes away the oils they produce in pre-shed to help them shed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KingWheatley

His temp is normal. I spray his enclosure and hides down, but not to the point where it's damp and can mold. Just before shed I have him a lukewarm bath and let him sit there for a bit, however the ceramic sink bottom was cold despite the warm water so he was trying to escape... So I didn't keep him in very long.

he seemed alright when I held him in the water though. I worry about cutting off the oxygen supply to his tank by covering the top, however I read a damp pillow case or towel under a lamp works as well. I did attempt that. It's been over 30 hours now and some of his shed is still stuck. A lot of it came off with a paper towel.

peeling was not a process I thought would be fun for him. And I am worried he's going to hate me. But bacteria can fester under the loose skin...

as as far as pooping goes, he doesn't generally show signs of stress, so I'm trying to see if he has hidden signs and is just harder to read...

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You're not going to cut the oxygen supply, reptiles have different oxygen requirements but you would still obviously have to make air holes just like if you would put him in a tub, not too much so that humidity would escape but just a few holes to have some air flow.

You are also reading into your snake way too much. He's not going to hate you in the common sense that you are thinking of. If anything he might just associate you with an unpleasant experience. Honestly, if the humidity problem is fixed in the enclosure, he'll figure out how to shed himself. Helping a snake with their shed is generally very unpleasant and should only be done IF and ONLY IF you haven't fixed the humidity and it's been roughly two weeks and they still haven't shed.

Ball pythons aren't helpless as you might think. They're good and efficient at what they do and rarely do they need human intervention. As for stress, stop handling him every day. Ball pythons aren't social animals and at most you're just going to have him associate you with, "oh this creature isn't going to kill me." He's never going to love you, hate you, associate you with safety, etc. Your ball python is very small and should have minimal handling. You handling him all the time is probably the single most contributing factor of stress.

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Originally Posted by Seven-Thirty

You're not going to cut the oxygen supply, reptiles have different oxygen requirements but you would still obviously have to make air holes just like if you would put him in a tub, not too much so that humidity would escape but just a few holes to have some air flow.You are also reading into your snake way too much. He's not going to hate you in the common sense that you are thinking of. If anything he might just associate you with an unpleasant experience. Honestly, if the humidity problem is fixed in the enclosure, he'll figure out how to shed himself. Helping a snake with their shed is generally very unpleasant and should only be done IF and ONLY IF you haven't fixed the humidity and it's been roughly two weeks and they still haven't shed. Ball pythons aren't helpless as you might think. They're good and efficient at what they do and rarely do they need human intervention. As for stress, stop handling him every day. Ball pythons aren't social animals and at most you're just going to have him associate you with, "oh this creature isn't going to kill me." He's never going to love you, hate you, associate you with safety, etc. Your ball python is very small and should have minimal handling. You handling him all the time is probably the single most contributing factor of stress.

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when I handle him I don't have him in my hands. He is either on my chest or lap and I have a blanket over us. He falls asleep frequently there and if he starts moving heading back to his tank I pick him up then and return him. He does not show any signs of stress which is why I'm being very watchful for any possible signs.

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Originally Posted by KingWheatley

when I handle him I don't have him in my hands. He is either on my chest or lap and I have a blanket over us. He falls asleep frequently there and if he starts moving heading back to his tank I pick him up then and return him. He does not show any signs of stress which is why I'm being very watchful for any possible signs.

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Whatever works for you then. If a ball python is still eating it's a good indicator that it's fine. I'm just saying that removing him from his secure hiding spot every day could be a big source of stress, especially for a small snake.

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Originally Posted by KingWheatley

Also...

When I feel anxious or whenever I experience fight/flight, generally speaking I have to void my bowels. I get cramps under stress and gassy. And I imagine that this response might be normal.

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:8:

sorry but that's funny.

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Originally Posted by noodlestsc

I'm a completely new BP owner and am going through a bad shed right now too. Maybe the more knowledgeable will tell me if I'm right or wrong on this but I've heard you should only soak if there is a problem. Soaking him before a shed may actually make things worse because it washes away the oils they produce in pre-shed to help them shed.

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I got that from watching Cinnamontoastken and his girl, SuperMaryFace. Bathes encourage bowel movements and ensure the skin and scales are hydrated and can assist with shedding. A sort of proactive approach. At least that's the impression I had. I have heard that over hydrating, over bathing, and keeping humidity too high encourages bacteria growth which can lead to infections, also that over-bathing creates shedding issues.

I have had some guy yelled at me for not keeping my heat constant at 100-105 (without gradient) because that's desert heat. Evidently he heard this from some professional snake breeder. I don't believe it, mind you, because I've also heard from another person that higher than 88(?) can sterilize your snake. But my point is that sometimes you hear things from people who have experience and background who know what they are talking about that make it seem that is the ONLY way to care for snakes. Something that I've run into frequently is mostly people who have vicarious experience tend to repeat what they've heard from their Heros (I guess...?) without testing it themselves.

Like people who watch Brian Barczyk (may have spelled that wrong) from SnakeBytesTV. That man is VERY skilled at breeding snakes successfully. And I've had very pleasant conversations with the guy. I would recommend talking to him. However, and the reason I brought him up, is people who watch him act like the viewers of the Dog Whisperer. People watch these guys and suddenly become self-acclaimed professionals/experts and think that because it worked for them/their idol it must be the only way to care for an animal.

For example, the rack system. Having small plastic tubs. There are a lot of people here who think that's the only way to house your snake. This is not true. (There are also a lot of people who know that glass tanks work too and recommend some awesome materials to get. So don't get me wrong on this. Just don't take one thing from one person.)

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Originally Posted by Seven-Thirty

Whatever works for you then. If a ball python is still eating it's a good indicator that it's fine. I'm just saying that removing him from his secure hiding spot every day could be a big source of stress, especially for a small snake.

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:) I know. You've given me tons of helpful advice, so don't think I'm arguing with you.

Im trying to keep a very watchful eye on him. I'm always watching out for stress and anxiousness. Since he can't speak and say "not right now" or make any noises outside hissing or huffing, a lot of his communication is nonverbal.

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Originally Posted by noodlestsc

I'm a completely new BP owner and am going through a bad shed right now too. Maybe the more knowledgeable will tell me if I'm right or wrong on this but I've heard you should only soak if there is a problem. Soaking him before a shed may actually make things worse because it washes away the oils they produce in pre-shed to help them shed.

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I haven't heard about washing away the oils on the skin (the fluid that helps them shed builds up underneath the old skin). If husbandry is correct, there shouldn't be a need to soak before a shed.
I have one snake who, for some reason, has trouble shedding even when there's visible condensation built up on the side of his tub. I made the decision to soak him after he seemed to give up on trying to get the skin off himself after a couple days. Even after switching to coconut, his sheds come off in a couple pieces.

I've also heard that bathing before a shed is bad because it strips away natural oils that aid in shedding.

Do you keep the humidity at 50% to 60% when not in shed and then 70% to 80% when in shed?

Winter is coming and the air has dried out, so we've actually had to put a small humidifier in Yzma's room to keep her humidity above 50%. (It kept dropping to the low 40's. We leave her door cracked and now it sits between 59% and 65%.) It's funny, cause when you open the door to the room, it feels like a jungle with all the warmth and humidity! I expect to hear tropical birds and jaguars, hahahaha.

In my opinion, the washing away oils thing is total BS, a complete wive's tale.

One person said this in post 1-2 yrs ago and others picked up that football and started running with it and have repeated the statement in their own posts.

All of my snakes, BP, Boa's, and Carpet Pythons have soaked on their own right up to shed before. No mites present, temps and humidity on point.

Most people here think that BP's don't like to soak probably because their water bowls aren't big enough for them to even have the opportunity to soak.

Besides, Seven-Thirty just stated a physiological fact: the oils are UNDERNEATH the skin so the skin can slide off. Soaking can't affect that.

Sorry folks, I have first hand EXPERIENCE on my side, NOT second hand statements that I have read on the Internet.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...401951946a.jpg
Elvira, Ball Python


http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...695f48b1b4.jpg
Esmarelda, Jungle Carpet


http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...2c3c3a90fc.jpg
Punch, Boa

I'll stop here, I have photos of my other four snakes doing the same.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KingWheatley

My little Beep is having his shed, and it looks like he's going to need a little help. I helped him out a little last night. But during one bit he jerked away as if it hurt him, but then came back and pressed against my fingers. After a little bit he seemed overwhelmed or overstimulated and wanted to hide. I kept a wet towel on him under a lamp, and the shed was loose in some places, but more firm in others. It's coming off in pieces rather than all together.

When I was helping him take it off, I was peeling it off him. I was trying to go head to tail, but some pieces of it went backwards. I tried my best doing it slowly and carefully so I didn't take out any scales, but around his neck and head he kept pulling himself away after I'd get ahold of some of the skin. After two times of this, I gave up with that and put him back. Currently he's sitting in his hide still half in his skin.

Secondly... He seems to have nothing against pooping on me. Is this a sign of stress? I've heard that snakes poop when stressed, but I've also heard this is a rumor resulting from anthropomorphizing them, and that it's actually because they are relaxed. He seems more apt to sit and chill on me when he's had a good poop. Sometimes he will fall asleep directly after.

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Many creatures are head shy. Including humans. Ever tried touching someone's eye? They pull back or turn away. So I'd call that ball python's behavior normal. IMO, he will need a little soaking and then start peeling off the old skin around the lower lips. Good luck with that.

Nearly every wild snake I have caught has pooped on me. Garter snakes not only poop but wipe it everywhere they can reach. :) So I would call it a sign of stress in many cases. It's not the only sign of stress, and there are other reasons for pooping, though.

If there are natural oils on a snake's skin, shouldn't they feel oily to the touch instead of dry? Shouldn't dirt stick to the skin?

I read something about a lamp? That might have dried things out. About the soaking, I never soak Karma before/during her shed. I lightly spray her with some warm water when she clears up from being in blue and that does it for her.

I wouldn't hold a baby BP every single day, stressed or not. Ball pythons are not social or display animals they want to hide. I take any snake pooping or peeing on me as a 'leave me alone, put me back in my home'.
And yeah,snake don't have the capacity to hate or love. They either associate you with good or bad experiences and respond to you based on them.

All of my snakes poop when they shed, I don't think I've ever had one shed that hasn't pooped at the same time. I think that's totally normal. Personally I wouldn't use an overhead lamp, just dries stuff out a bit too much. If you have an undertank heater I'd probably turn off the light just before a shed and crank up the humidity. With a coconut substrate like Reptichip you can really soak the substrate and it will still be fine, it won't mold at all. I spray my substrate down until the coconut is dark brown, just before it really gets drenched, just nice and wet. And in 2-3 days it dries out quite a bit so I'm always spraying it down with a lot of water. If you are having mold issues I would certainly change to a different substrate.

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Originally Posted by cchardwick

All of my snakes poop when they shed, I don't think I've ever had one shed that hasn't pooped at the same time. I think that's totally normal. Personally I wouldn't use an overhead lamp, just dries stuff out a bit too much. If you have an undertank heater I'd probably turn off the light just before a shed and crank up the humidity. With a coconut substrate like Reptichip you can really soak the substrate and it will still be fine, it won't mold at all. I spray my substrate down until the coconut is dark brown, just before it really gets drenched, just nice and wet. And in 2-3 days it dries out quite a bit so I'm always spraying it down with a lot of water. If you are having mold issues I would certainly change to a different substrate.

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I don't have any mold issues, thankfully

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Originally Posted by Yzmasmom

I've also heard that bathing before a shed is bad because it strips away natural oils that aid in shedding.

Do you keep the humidity at 50% to 60% when not in shed and then 70% to 80% when in shed?

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I haven't come across a tool to measure the humidity properly. I just spray his enclosure plenty.

also, I can tell you why it doesn't strip oils... I'm using just water and soaking him. Have you tried washing oil off anything with just water? It doesn't work.

Also, he had a wet tshirt around him. The lamp wouldn't have dried him out but would have kept him warm in the damp tshirt. This was something Google had to offer...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KingWheatley

when I handle him I don't have him in my hands. He is either on my chest or lap and I have a blanket over us. He falls asleep frequently there and if he starts moving heading back to his tank I pick him up then and return him. He does not show any signs of stress which is why I'm being very watchful for any possible signs.

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There are many types of stress that can negatively impact your snake's health that do not have readily apparent outward signs.

If your snake is having problems shedding then your husbandry is off. Your humidity is too low. It's just not a smart idea to handle him frequently until you have you environmental issues fixed. It doesn't matter if you handle him with your hands, your feet, or your butt cheeks - unless being under that blanket is providing him the proper temps and humidity he doesn't need to be there till he has a stable proper environment to get back to. I'd stop handling except for moving for cleaning until there is a proper shed under his belt.

Balls are aestivators. When they face a too arid of an environment their metabolic processes slow down. Excessive handling during that, making the snake be more active then it's primed to be is one of those stresses that you can't see - but really taxes the immune system and can leave the snake vulnerable to parasites, viral and bacterial infections. Which can kill.

Not saying that's what IS happening with your snake. Just an example of one of those stresses that you can not readily observe.

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Stresses, little and big, as well as the direct effects of environmental problems (cage size, orientation, heating, lighting, feeding, humidity, etc.) can lead to illness. Thermal burns, dysregulated endocrine system, sleep deprivation, constant fear and/or insecurity, malnutrition, etc., lead to numerous illnesses and disorders. Stress itself can suppress immune function, making the body unable to naturally fight off infection or keep internal parasites under control. The more stress, or the longer that it is allowed to continue, the weaker the animal becomes and the less tolerant it is to continued stresses and other problems in its environment.

Reptiles take a long time to die. Because of their ectothermy, their cold-bloodedness, they are able to conserve energy to maintain basic body functions for a long time, long after a mammal or bird would have succumbed or have deteriorated to the point where the owner would notice. Reptiles do not die "suddenly." When someone says that, what has happened is that their reptile was sick for a long period of time but, according to the nature of wild animals (which, after all, most reptiles still are, even if they were captive bred), they hid their distress: in the wild, it is the sick and the weak who are preyed upon. Those animals most adept at suppressing signs of ill-health or injury are those that will have a chance to recover before being eaten.

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http://www.anapsid.org/signs.html

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Originally Posted by KingWheatley

I haven't come across a tool to measure the humidity properly. I just spray his enclosure plenty.

also, I can tell you why it doesn't strip oils... I'm using just water and soaking him. Have you tried washing oil off anything with just water? It doesn't work.

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You can get a digital thermometer/hygrometer for cheap on amazon or Home Depot.

The oils are underneath the skin, so they don't come into contact with the water.

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Originally Posted by Seven-Thirty

You can get a digital thermometer/hygrometer for cheap on amazon or Home Depot.

The oils are underneath the skin, so they don't come into contact with the water.

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Thank you. I have a Digital infrared thermometer (which is how I've gotten the proper temperature gradient now.) but definitely need a hydrometer.... brand you use? I haven't seen any that had perfect reviews.

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Originally Posted by Reinz

In my opinion, the washing away oils thing is total BS, a complete wive's tale.

One person said this in post 1-2 yrs ago and others picked up that football and started running with it and have repeated the statement in their own posts.

All of my snakes, BP, Boa's, and Carpet Pythons have soaked on their own right up to shed before. No mites present, temps and humidity on point.

Most people here think that BP's don't like to soak probably because their water bowls aren't big enough for them to even have the opportunity to soak.

Besides, Seven-Thirty just stated a physiological fact: the oils are UNDERNEATH the skin so the skin can slide off. Soaking can't affect that.

Sorry folks, I have first hand EXPERIENCE on my side, NOT second hand statements that I have read on the Internet.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...401951946a.jpg
Elvira, Ball Python


http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...695f48b1b4.jpg
Esmarelda, Jungle Carpet


http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...2c3c3a90fc.jpg
Punch, Boa

I'll stop here, I have photos of my other four snakes doing the same.

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by the way... Beautiful snakes c:

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Originally Posted by KingWheatley

Thank you. I have a Digital infrared thermometer (which is how I've gotten the proper temperature gradient now.) but definitely need a hydrometer.... brand you use? I haven't seen any that had perfect reviews.

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I just use an all living things hydrometer and thermometer combo which you can get at your local petsmart or something. It's not perfect but it gets the job done. Like you don't need to get perfect percentages, just a rough estimate of the humidity.