mesob laid eggs

Mesob is our family ball python, whom we all thought was male. We have had him for about nine years. he is an only child. The odd thing is that he laid six eggs in saturday and is now coiled around them. how is this possible. thanks for any help

Call me crazy but I think you were misinformed.....;)

I've never heard of a spontaneous pregnancy nor immaculate conception in pythons- are you sure they are egss and maybe not urates? About how big are they? You've had this BP for 9 years . . . could you possibly post some pics?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Smulkin

I've never heard of a spontaneous pregnancy nor immaculate conception in pythons- are you sure they are egss and maybe not urates?

---

It's actually been documented in burms and ball pythons.

Was she a hatchling when you got her or an adult? The eggs may not be fertile.

-adam

Quote:

---

It's actually been documented in burms and ball pythons.

---

Is this some kind of hermaphroditic thing? Are the involved eggs, organs etc. vestigal? Likely to be slugs then?

That's fascinating to say the least - are there any online links we could check out?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Smulkin

Is this some kind of hermaphroditic thing?

---

Many claim that they are higher order cases of parthenogenesis, but I don't think that the histories of the animals involved to date can be documented well enough to know with any certainty that sperm wasn't present within the female at some point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Smulkin

Likely to be slugs then?

---

They are likely to be slugs if the female has with a doubt never been in the presence of a male. The popular thinking being that if conditions are right a sexually mature female may spontaneously ovulate without being inseminated and then go on to develop and lay eggs which would of course be infertile. While rare, it is certainly not beyond the realm of possibilities.

In the cases that I've heard of, the most probable conclusion has been long term sperm retention. A female python kept at ideal temperatures may be able to hold sperm for many years. It's not an idea that breeders like to talk about, but there is evidence to suggest that it should at least be considered.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Smulkin

That's fascinating to say the least - are there any online links we could check out?

---

No links that I know of ... I think I have an old copy of an Italian herpetological journal that has an article. Other cases I've heard of were one first hand account and a couple other second hands.

-adam

We had a turtle that laid eggs without ever being introduced to a male. The turtle was purchased when it was way to tiny to breed so retained sperm could not have been the answer. All the eggs that were produced were slugs. It is very odd but I have read about this happening a few other places. If you do a search on cornsnakes.com you should be able to find a few similar stories.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Smulkin

I've never heard of a spontaneous pregnancy nor immaculate conception in pythons- are you sure they are egss and maybe not urates? About how big are they? You've had this BP for 9 years . . . could you possibly post some pics?

---

they are a little smaller than chicken eggs but longer but you cant really see them. she is coiled around them tightly

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Many claim that they are higher order cases of parthenogenesis, but I don't think that the histories of the animals involved to date can be documented well enough to know with any certainty that sperm wasn't present within the female at some point.



They are likely to be slugs if the female has with a doubt never been in the presence of a male. The popular thinking being that if conditions are right a sexually mature female may spontaneously ovulate without being inseminated and then go on to develop and lay eggs which would of course be infertile. While rare, it is certainly not beyond the realm of possibilities.

In the cases that I've heard of, the most probable conclusion has been long term sperm retention. A female python kept at ideal temperatures may be able to hold sperm for many years. It's not an idea that breeders like to talk about, but there is evidence to suggest that it should at least be considered.



No links that I know of ... I think I have an old copy of an Italian herpetological journal that has an article. Other cases I've heard of were one first hand account and a couple other second hands.

-adam

---

how will i know if the eggs are infertile. and what will happen to them if they are. what should i do now

here is how to check if a egg is infertile....
http://www.joecompelreptiles.com/bal...ndle/index.asp

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mesob

they are a little smaller than chicken eggs

---

Probably not fertile.

-adam

Here's a link to Markus Jayne's site. If you scroll down there is a great clear picture of some fertile eggs right beside some slugs if that's a help to you. Also a pic of candling as well.


http://www.ballpython.ca/gallery/breeding.html

Congrats to the ummm happy mother (even infertile slugs hey she tried and ought to get some credit for that LOL).

Actually if this snake hasn't been around a male for 9 years and suddenly pops out some eggs and this is really rare, should the owner be letting someone know in order to document it properly?


~~Jo~~

that would work if she wasn't coiled around them. should i try to move them

here is a nice demo of how to get the eggs out....

http://ballpython.ca/gallery/eggs_out.html

ha ha....people are going to start calling me the linkmaster if I dont lookout :)

Gotta love that MJ site. Those pics are so clear and really helpful to first timers aren't they.

I'd just be careful when you approach and remove her from the eggs. Like any "broody" female of most species I'm sure she'll be instinctively protective and momma's can be fierce.

~~Jo~~

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mesob

should i try to move them

---

Not if you don't have an incubator set up.

-adam

This is all very strange. I would love to see some pics. Not trying to say I don't believe ya, but it would be cool to see!

i u piss off the mother wont she flail around and possibly crush the eggs?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alexrls

i u piss off the mother wont she flail around and possibly crush the eggs?

---

No.

1. Moms usually come off the eggs pretty easily. They might hiss a little bit, but 99.9% of the time, you just have to unwrap them.

2. The eggs aren't hard like chicken eggs ... they don't "crush" ... the shells are soft and pliable. You just have to make sure that you don't rotate them as you remove the female.

-adam

Just a quick offside question about bp eggs. I was watching an Animal Planet thing about nesting croc's and noted when they removed the eggs they marked them as to what side was up as apparently placing the egg in the incubator upside down (to the way it was laid) would potentially kill the developing croc. Are snake eggs also this way?


~~Jo~~

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by frankykeno

Just a quick offside question about bp eggs. I was watching an Animal Planet thing about nesting croc's and noted when they removed the eggs they marked them as to what side was up as apparently placing the egg in the incubator upside down (to the way it was laid) would potentially kill the developing croc. Are snake eggs also this way?

---

As far as I know, all reptile eggs are this way. Turning the egg may cuase the embryo to detach from the egg wall. Basically, if that happens, it dies.

ok so since they are not fertile what should we do. she is still gaurding them?

I'm a complete newcomer so this is only my "instinct" speaking here so pls do take it that way.

If it were me I'd just simply unwind her from the eggs, gently but firmly grasping her behind her head and as far down her body as you can mange and just unwind her slowly from the egg mass. I believe the Markus Jayne site previously posted in this thread shows a good pictorial of this. Have a secure container nearby ready to pop her into and then just remove and dispose of the slugs, clean out her cage good, put in new substrate, provide fresh water and just pop her back in. Then I'd leave her pretty much alone for at least a few days to settle back in and offer food when appropriate. Since she's sitting on slugs she's probably not eating, drinking or tending her own needs so best to get her back to regular routine as soon as possible I would think.

If you are worried about her being aggressive or hard to handle I'd probably have another person nearby to help if you've got your hands full of crabby momma snake. Perhaps an experienced breeder could chime in here as far as how aggressive most female b.p.'s are when being removed from eggs. I know some breeders do it by hand, others use snake hooks.

Again, I'm not a breeder this is just what I'd do instinctively.


~~Joanna~~

thanks for all the great help everyone.