BP intelligence/emotion?

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So first, I want to start off by explaining that I am a first time pet owner, not just a first time snake owner. Though, ignorant that I am not, I am facing the interesting dilemma unique to those of us who seek information first before field experience. I am directly referring to the differing opinions that the internet has to offer.

On one hand, the theory that all animals have their personalities, much like we do. If that is synonymous to intelligence or not, I am not so sure. However, it creates a sort of anthropomorphic view, and causes one (like myself) to question if they really possess these qualities, or if we are simply interpreting them in a way that is easier for us to understand. This is not abnormal, as we are empathetic as a species. However, on the other hand, there is also the theory that snakes, as a related example, do not lack the intelligent capacity for feelings outside of hunger, fear, and other productive in-the-wild emotions. Suggesting, of course, that feelings are a product of the brain.

That being said, after so many generations of captive breeding, could a species so suggestively unintelligent evolve in such a way to possess emotions? Dogs, and even cats... Domesticated animals that do possess complex emotion. Horses, elephants, dolphins... Wild undomesticated (by definition) animals who possess complex emotions. Not in the same way we do, but certainly more than your basic survival instincts.

I bring this up, more so because my little beep named Wheatley (named after the derpy antagonist from Portal 2) has shown curious behaviors that dangerously suggest a higher level of intelligence outside of normal snake behavior described on many forums/websites/youtube videos.

Given, he's not taking up a pen and writing long letters. However, there is an interesting level of non-verbal communication between me and my baby ball. I'll get to that in a second, but I wish to add some necessary details first.

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Wheatley was hatched maybe sometime late july, early august. He's very tiny. The pet store I had bought him advertised base morphs like spiders at $40. And I went with the intention of spending most of my money on good equipment for a home for my snake. The pet store in question did not have the proper materials for a comfortable home, however even if it was imperfect, I felt that for short term it would be alright. It wasn't unhealthy, just not ideal in my own opinion. In store, the two spider morphs were priced at $60 each. The ball pythons at the top most tanks (oddly, bigger snakes in smaller environments) were laying down and not doing much of anything. However, little Wheatley in the bottom most tank was exploring around. More than likely he was looking for food, but what really got to me was when he met my eyes. He froze, as an animal would upon realizing they are being stared at by something possibly dangerous to them, however instead of freaking out, he started checking me out. "Sniffing' around in my direction, and wiggling around trying to get closer to me. He struck me as a very brave little guy, and decided right then that THIS was the exact snake I would be leaving the store with. Not at all disturbed by the increase of $20 from online to the sticker price in-person, I sought a store associate to assist me. In my excitement, I completely ignored the fact that I was passed off multiple times by several employees until I was stuck with a small young lady. I asked her, as she was getting the box out to put my future snake in, if she was scared of snakes. She said "no." Her words, however, did not match her actions, as when she yanked open the tank, and began to approach the snake from above, fingers splayed. Other store associates gathered to watch, as if it were a game to them. The older male employee said something to the effect of "careful, he might try and bite again..." which in turn freaked this young lady out to the point where she started raising her voice and getting shaky, talking about how nervous this particular snake made her.

Now, I'm sure as all of you could assume, this poor little baby snake could only see a large, claw-like object coming at his face from above. He had the characteristic defensive "S" position and he was entirely fixated upon that hand. I had no other choice. I shoo'd her away from him, and said that I would get him out for them. I didn't mean anything by it, but my concern was for this baby snake's safety and security. I gave him a second after moving her away, and immediately he was looking at me as I approached slowly from the side. He twisted his head just enough to see my hand, but not in a "I'm about to bite you" way. I gently pet his side, which got him to move slowly away, stretching his neck out and sniffing around. I picked him up and put him in the box they had given me to carry him in.

The older gentleman who had messed with the younger lady apparently took a strong offense to the fact I had shoo'd her away, and I left out the door looking at my receipt which priced this spider ball python as a "Fancy" ball python at close to $200! I was absolutely livid, but I knew raising a fuss would only leave me with the option of returning this baby back to that environment. So today, I affectionately refer to Wheatley as my expensive rescue.

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I made a newbie no-no on day one. After getting Wheatley set up in his new home, after maybe an hour or so I decided to fiddle with his environment more. I paid no heed to him or how he was reacting to me suddenly moving around the plastic leaves and it earned a small hiss and a nip. Naturally I jumped back, as I was not expecting it. I backed off for the time being, but then returned an hour later to try again. This time I picked him up out of his tank and held him close to me. He was breathing heavily, and balled up, but he did not hiss or bite at me. I waited for him to relax before putting him back in his tank. And that took a while.

I had to take him out a third time, as I had to return to the Petstore as the lamp I had bought had a broken bulb and I wanted to get a second hide-spot for the warmer end of his home. It was bigger than the half log, (which I had set up so that the aspen was covering the one end, so there was only a single entrance), and he has since made this large hollow plastic rock his favorite hide. It was during this trip that the store disclosed to me that they had not fed him since they received him from the breeder, who "normally feeds them a day before shipping."

Now, in my research I had learned that ball pythons tend to refuse food when they are stressed, and since that day had been filled with exhaustive amounts of new things and new environments, I decided to wait two days before feeding. He ate a frozen-thawed fuzzy just fine the day I fed him. This was last wednesday. I waited a little after 24 hours to handle him.

Now, when I handle him, I don't keep my hands on him. I do that for a small bit, maybe a couple minutes, then I'd place him on my chest or around my neck, and he'd basically "hang out" with me for a couple hours. After just a week of doing this regularly, and far more frequently than recommended, now whenever I open his tank and lift up his hide, he'll look up at me and ignore my hand, sniffing and never getting defensive. He doesn't tense up any more, nor does he get that defensive "s."

Here's the thing that got to me though. Another rookie mistake I made just today:

I had him wrapped around my neck while I was preparing his meal. I didn't really think so much about it, simply because I was on the phone at the time discussing work stuff with my supervisor. It wasn't until I had picked Wheatley up from around my neck to place him in his tank so I could feed him did I realize that he was completely fixated on the meal I had for him. I had to go dry it off first, before getting the tongs on it to feed it to him, but I was just thinking about how lucky I was that he didn't just strike at my hand thinking it was food. After eating the meal, I situated his tank, my hands still within distance of him, so everything was back in place.

Now, according to research I've read, snakes tend to remain in "feeding mode" for a time, so it's very ill-advised to be doing exactly what I just did. However, he came up to my hand, flicked his tongue, then just turned and left.

Snakes, even "domestic" ones, are opportunistic hunters. Bite first, ask questions later. The fact that he came up while in food mode, and didn't bite me is causing me to SERIOUSLY consider, on top of everything else, that Wheatley is actually pretty intelligent for a snake.

He's timid, like the majority of ball pythons, for sure. But it's highly suggestive that despite all my rookie mistakes that would have stressed out a normal snake, that in just a week he was familiar enough to not even be a little startled when I'm going to pick him up. These past couple days he's been going straight up to me to soak up the warmth when I've put him nearby. He's very trusting. Even as a small little baby who is generally head-shy, will let me boop him on his nose without much reaction.

So based on this, I really feel that some snakes do have the capacity for more complex emotions outside of fear and hunger. Maybe not attachment, but certainly trust.

That was a very interesting observation you wrote, and I completely agree. Snakes may not wag their "tail" or lick your face, but to an extent they do trust their owners.

Reason being, is that if you spend everyday with them they probably recognize your scent or at least associate you with safety. For example, when my friends/family want to hold my boy, he tends to move around quickly or try to get back with me because he knows I'm much calmer then they are and knows at least this jungle gym won't drop him. That's always been the case.

I've also noticed that with breeders they say snakes don't have any emotion or intelligence, but then again they have dozens of snakes to take care of and don't have the time to spend with one like some do. I'm not saying all breeders think that or don't have the time, but some do and some don't.

Anyway, I thank you for this piece you wrote because I hope it can at least open a few eyes.


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There's also a pretty wide range of intelligence within snakes. Most pythons are more aware of my presence and their surroundings than (for example) some colubrids like corn snakes. Corn snakes just seem totally loopy to me with no particular recognition of my eye contact or anything like that, while my green tree python (when she's not sleeping) is much more aware of when I'm looking directly at her from outside her enclosure. Usually, my eye contact disturbs her and she shrinks away while keeping her eyes on me. LOL. Not sure what to blame this on. :P

I think most snake owners would agree that they do learn more than just fear and hunger. They learn bad experience vs good experience- becoming more defensive if they've been stressed or manhandled when taken out of their enclosure before vs. not being frightened when being held, so learning that it's okay to stay calm.

I feel that you can count this level of intelligence is still "productive when in the wild emotions" though. No bad experiences = safe. Bad experiences = attack/hide/avoid. So there's that...

I loved reading your story! Sounds like Wheaty has a lot of personality :) I think that love is not an emotion. It is many emotions. Trust and saftey are important parts of love. Snakes can absolutely learn to trust us and feel safe with us. My experience has shown that snakes do have personalities. I recently interacted with some wild Gartner snakes and was taken aback by how they each reacted so differently to the same stimuli.

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"Emotion" is a complicated subject. One thing that snakes most likely do not have is social attachments the way that mammals and birds (that care for their young, live in social groups, etc) do. But I think it's also an oversimplification to think that they feel only hunger, thirst, pain, heat, cold, fear, and security (being basically the lack of any of those other things). Some are more inquisitive about their world than others. Some are more risk-averse than others.
I think they can definitely tell when you're looking at them - and if they're feeling even the slightest bit insecure, they don't like being stared at. It does make sense: if you're a snake in the wild, the only reasons an animal bigger than you would be staring at you is if it's deciding whether to eat you, swipe at you, drive you away from its nest, etc. Much safer to go unnoticed.

My story about snakes being smart is that my BP's cage sits in the living room, in the same place that my old corn snake's cage was. The corn snake lived in that spot for ten years, and had a variety of hides and boxes and tubes and stuff during that time, but he usually liked to hang out with his head facing the corner of his cage that would let him watch the living room door. I got the BP when the corn snake died, so his cage is in the same spot. And if he's awake and sticking his head out, he always hangs out facing that door, especially when he's hungry. When I take him out, he always heads toward that door, no matter where he is in the living room. And the longer it's been since his last meal, the harder he tries to go that way.
My theory is that both of them figured out that food comes from that door. And I think the BP has learned to recognize the metal bowl I usually use to thaw rats in, too.

But I think we should be careful how much logic we ascribe to them. If a snake is terrified while being handled, but doesn't actually get hurt, it doesn't go home thinking "well, that turne out OK because nothing bad actually happened". It just associates the whole business with being terrified. Actually, we humans are that way too, we just don't like to admit it. If you're afraid of flying and you have a flight with a lot of turbulence but the plane doesn't crash, you don't go home thinking "Nothing bad happened, so I won't be scared next time"; you go home thinking about how terrified you were and you dread the next flight that much more. Or you drive instead, even though it is an easily demonstrable fact that your actual risk of getting hurt is exponentially higher if you drive than if you fly.

It's something to keep in mind, anyway. If handling is always a terrifying experience, the snake is going to have a hard time learning that there's nothing to be afraid of.

I have grown up surrounded by many different animals from horses to snakes. I can say it has been my experience that although some species have larger processors (mental capacity) than others, they are all limited by their internal wiring (instincts) and software updates (training and life experiences).
I have personally trained horses, dogs, cats (as much as one can train a cat) and in some cases reptiles (again to the extent that an reptile could possibly be trained. I can say with certainty ever behavior I have witnessed can be directly tied to either an instinct or some sort of learned behavior. Original thought and or self expression is not something I have ever seen in any animals I have worked with.
As far as love, I personally believe love is nothing more of the action of putting others before oneself regardless of one's feelings for that person or thing. Emotions have nothing to do with it. With that said, some pack instincts could follow those lines and appear to be love however I think it (when animals are concerned) is a programmed response and not a conscious decision.

That's very interesting! I was set on naming my ball python Wheatley too from Portal 2 (I love that game), but I ended up giving mine a differed name. But I think that snakes have their own intelligence and personalities. :)

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Could a unintelligent species evolve in such a way to possess emotion

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While intelelligence is relative, yes they can be conditionned for simple things (like feeding routine) snakes mainly rely on instincs which we often interpret as intelligence.

As for emotions while many snake owners credit their snakes with emotions, it's been seen many time over with thread titles like "my BP loves me", "My BP hates me" "my BP loves to cuddles" etc they do no possess that capability.

Emotions are located in the frontal lobe of the brain, which does not exist in snakes.

So we can make ourself feel better pretend they love us but they don't.

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He sounds like a really happy, laid back dude to me. :)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23979455 I haven't had time to read through this but it looks very interesting. I think reptiles are underestimated.

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Originally Posted by Yzmasmom

He sounds like a really happy, laid back dude to me. :)

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Very much so. The only time he gets any bit of antsy (as I quickly figured out...) is when he needs to poop.... :oops:

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Originally Posted by skymall

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23979455 I haven't had time to read through this but it looks very interesting. I think reptiles are underestimated.

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The brain of any/all animals are quite complex in structure. I enjoy reading about brains, especially ours. Curiously, I tried the mirror test on Wheatley to judge how intelligent he is. He did what some cats do. Look, try and get around the animal into the world beyond it, realize there is resistance, then he moved a bit and observed the "other snake." At no point did he start panicking. It may have just been because he was in my hand and felt safe, but I would like to believe that he has at least shown a level of intelligence equal of that to a cat when it comes to the awareness of self test. (Cats typically fail/ignore the test after picking up on the fact they can't get past the other cat in the mirror. Very few will actually pass it. Another good technique in this is approaching directly behind the animal. If they see you in the mirror and turn around to look at you, it could mean they are actually aware of themselves in the mirror. However trying this with Wheatley, he, of course, paid more attention to the hand in the mirror that seemingly was coming towards him and tried to climb on.)

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Originally Posted by Deborah

"my BP loves me", "My BP hates me" "my BP loves to cuddles" etc they do no possess that capability.

Emotions are located in the frontal lobe of the brain, which does not exist in snakes.

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Love is a very broad term that seems to fit many different things. In one definition, love is simply the protective instinct within us. In another, it's a connection between two parties of knowing/understanding. Personally, I feel that love is not really an emotion, but a level of bonding. Wheatley knows/remembers my scent, and is comfortable being around me. He likes my warmth, and feels safe. He's fallen asleep on me before. Though there is nothing clearly indicative of a bond, I think it's unfair to claim that they cannot bond to their handlers.

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Originally Posted by Coluber42

If handling is always a terrifying experience, the snake is going to have a hard time learning that there's nothing to be afraid of.

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Rest assuredly, my BP has definitely associated my smell with safety and comfort. It's gotten to the point that instead of picking him up from his tank, I'll lay my hand near him, and once he smells me out, he starts climbing up my arm.

I have an Australian Woma python that I handle frequently and when I got a new albino dwarf reticulated python I was almost positive he got jealous and curled up in his hide for almost a whole month before coming out to play again. Most people say that snakes are not smart enough to feel jealousy but who really knows?

I think most animals are way smarter than we give them credit for, it's just that they don't have the will to do our 'tricks' to evaluate their intelligence. Take for example cats, I think they are much more smarter than dogs, they are just not as willing to do tricks for people. Now take a snake with no arms and no legs who can't do any tricks at all really and may not even have the will to do tricks, how do you judge their intelligence?

I used to have a pet jumping spider that was one of the smartest spiders (and the coolest). I would peer down at him and he would look up at me and tilt his head sideways like he was trying to figure me out. You can't say it's the size of their brain because that spider brain was as small as a grain of sand.

They say reticulated pythons are one of the smartest snakes, my retic will look out the window of his tub and just watch me work in the rodent room. All the other snake will totally ignore me, that retic kind of freaks me out how smart she seems. Some of my rats will just sit and watch me too... Freaky smart.

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Love is a very broad term that seems to fit many different things. In one definition, love is simply the protective instinct within us. In another, it's a connection between two parties of knowing/understanding. Personally, I feel that love is not really an emotion, but a level of bonding. Wheatley knows/remembers my scent, and is comfortable being around me. He likes my warmth, and feels safe. He's fallen asleep on me before. Though there is nothing clearly indicative of a bond, I think it's unfair to claim that they cannot bond to their handlers.

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It's one sided, he does not love you, does not cuddle, he seeks heat that has nothing to do with love or bonding but has to do with basic needs.

Now you can chose other words to replace needs or instincks but it's still does not mean there is love, protection or bonding on the snake's end, only on yours.

Again you are attributing human emotions to a snake that is lacking the frontal part of his brain where emotions such as love resides.

Ball pythons are solitary creatures. They have not needed nor evolved any of the required pack animal instincts that one would compare to one of the many definitions of love. If ball pythons were capable of what you are talking about, they would do better kept in pairs or groups. Clearly this is not the case.

BPs are certainly capable of recognizing familiar environments. If you as their owner have established yourself to them as a safe place, they may seek you out. I have a BP who comes out of her hide when she smells me in the room and if I offer my hand, she will occasionally leave her hide to crawl up my arm. Her hot spot is about the same as my skin temp and by all (snake) logic my arm would offer less safety as it's out in the open. However, she still chooses to come to me, which I can only attribute to smell and curiosity. It may not be affection as is shown in pack animals, but that exists for the sake of safety and protection. A snake associating its owner with safety is pretty close to the same thing.

My snake is very capible of communicating if she doesn't want to come out. Sometimes she seeks me out. She has a hide that is warmer than I am. I don't think anyone is arguing that snakes experience the same level of emotions as people do. But love is subjective. If my snake can differentiate me from other people, prefer my handling her from other people because she has come to trust me and associates me with positive experiences and saftey then I consider that love. Obviously she would never jump in front of a car for me and I recongize she is not a domesticated animal but I have seen the same species of snakes react differently to the same stimuli which would indicate they have personalities.

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It is also important to know that it is much more difficult to prove a hypothesis than it may seem. My evolutionary biology professor said for example that our understanding of ears would indicate that bats have large ears to facilitate better hearing. While that is logical, you have to prove it. This is because what is logical is not always true. For example there is a species of ants that live in some kind of berry bush. Many of them has large butts that look identical to the berries. Logic would say this is to blend in with their enviorment but it turns out that isn't true. The ants with the "berry butts" are infected with a parasite. The parasite must go through ants and birds to complete its life cycle. Birds that eat the berries mistake the ants for food and eat them and the parasite. Then they poop on the bush, the ants eat the waste and the parasite enters the ant's system. It may be that the anatomy of a snake brain is different from ours and logically this should indicate they can't feel emotion. But they do express personality (damage to the human prefrontal cortex can change personality). I also don't know how much research has really gone into snake brains. My personal experience (though not statistically valid) indicates snakes (at least some snakes) seem content with their owners and some don't. They certainly can develop trust.

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Originally Posted by treaux

BPs are certainly capable of recognizing familiar environments. If you as their owner have established yourself to them as a safe place, they may seek you out. I have a BP who comes out of her hide when she smells me in the room and if I offer my hand, she will occasionally leave her hide to crawl up my arm. Her hot spot is about the same as my skin temp and by all (snake) logic my arm would offer less safety as it's out in the open. However, she still chooses to come to me, which I can only attribute to smell and curiosity. It may not be affection as is shown in pack animals, but that exists for the sake of safety and protection. A snake associating its owner with safety is pretty close to the same thing.

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*mic drop*

seriously, though. I honestly think that love and bonding is a lot deeper than frontal lobes. Snakes still imprint on things, much like birds and other animals do. It has nothing to do with emotion, to be honest.

and nobody can tell me that snakes don't imprint, because I know for certain they imprint on favorite prey items.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

It's one sided, he does not love you, does not cuddle, he seeks heat that has nothing to do with love or bonding but has to do with basic needs.

Now you can chose other words to replace needs or instincks but it's still does not mean there is love, protection or bonding on the snake's end, only on yours.

Again you are attributing human emotions to a snake that is lacking the frontal part of his brain where emotions such as love resides.

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You are familiar with the term "imprinting," i'd imagine? Snakes do actually have that ability as they tend to imprint upon favorite prey items.

They have a capability, as such, to associate a specific smell with safety and warmth. He feels content to be curled up around me, or chilling out on me. if it was just warmth, he'd go hide under my heat blanket when I have him out.

I wouldn't go as far as to say he loves me like I love him. Or how I love my cat (rip) and my cat loved me (maybe...). But he has definitely shown that he is quite content and prefers to be on me than any of the other less lively but equally warm things.

its not a human emotion. This is a very basic "emotion" that the majority of all creatures feel. With little exception.

Establishing prey items is a far cry from imprinting. Considering the lack of maternal instinct once hatched and the rate at which neonates disperse out into the wild coupled with the lone mentality of ball pythons. There is no reason for nor benefit to imprinting nor affection. It has no reason to exist. They do however possess a level of curiosity otherwise they never would leave the nest but even that could be attributed to instinctual drive to eat or be alone. You are attempting to place human emotional explanation to behavior that is nothing more that instinctual or learned response. Not trying to bust your bubble but what you think you are experiencing simply is not what you think it is. At least in the way I understand your description.

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Originally Posted by enginee837

Establishing prey items is a far cry from imprinting. Considering the lack of maternal instinct once hatched and the rate at which neonates disperse out into the wild coupled with the lone mentality of ball pythons. There is no reason for nor benefit to imprinting nor affection. It has no reason to exist. They do however possess a level of curiosity otherwise they never would leave the nest but even that could be attributed to instinctual drive to eat or be alone. You are attempting to place human emotional explanation to behavior that is nothing more that instinctual or learned response. Not trying to bust your bubble but what you think you are experiencing simply is not what you think it is. At least in the way I understand your description.

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they do imprint. It's not a maternal instinct, it's recognition. It recognizes a certain smell to mean a certain thing. I may be wrong in thinking that's what imprinting is, though.

I don't consider love to be an emotion, however. Bonding is a social animal thing, though. So I suppose I am mistaking a preference to be a bond.

even still. its hard to say for sure, to be honest. no matter which side you look at, neither of us know for sure because we are simply going off logic and observations. It's only natural for us to attribute something familiar to ourselves to other people/animals.

And it's our instinct to do so.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

It's one sided, she does not love you, does not cuddle, she seeks heat that has nothing to do with love or bonding but has to do with basic needs.

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Wait, are you talking about my snake or my wife?

:partyon:

Seriously though, I think all my snakes love me! :rolleyes:

Hmm, I have to say that my mom and I's BP, Cooper has shown great intelligence and some emotion. :confuzd:

He was in his cold(er) side hide, my mom was worried about him, for some reason thought he was dead....I went in, poked around, and he poked his head out and said "Hi moms!"
She was crying and sniffly, idk why still, but she was INCREDIBLY worried.

From that day on, whenever someone comes into his room, he pokes his head out if to say "Hey, I'm okay!" He never did that before. He also will touch the top of his enclosure rather frantically if I do say so myself when he wants to come out and be held.

When he had a traumatic experience with f/t, he wouldn't show my parents he was hungry because they were the ones who gave it to him regularly. I had never fed him and he would come out and try to get my attention despite me never doing anything with/for him previously. Why? Because I wouldn't give it to him. I hadn't been the one who gave it to him and he thought I might give him something else.

I understand why some people might think that snakes have no emotions, no personalities, but...can you really say that's true? I just recently started giving a hoot about snakes, before that I didn't care at ALL. I still thought that he was amazingly smart and oddly emotional for a snake. Now I truly believe that he is a caring creature despite being a solitary animal.

He also really likes to climb onto my pikachu snapback....it has the ears and he loves to climb onto it, wrapping around the ears, about crushing my poor neck from his weight :rofl:

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Originally Posted by cchardwick

Wait, are you talking about my snake or my wife?

:partyon:

Seriously though, I think all my snakes love me! :rolleyes:

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Although it is believed both are cold blooded I believe their attitude is more in line with a wild caught mangrove snake.