Maternally Incubating - Concerned about Disturbing Female to Feed Her

I've read some great info on this forum regarding maternally incubating a clutch. From what I've read it seems that feeding females who are maternally incubating is ok. Some will eat, some will not. This is my first clutch so I'm a bit paranoid about disturbing the natural process.

I bred a pastel male and a spider female. The mom spider is young (right around 3 years old) but she was fat and very healthy when she laid a clutch of 7 eggs. She is clearly hungry now however, I'm concerned about disturbing her by taking her out of the enclosure to feed her (frozen) in a separate large container (which I normally do.)

BIG NOTE: I also can't move her easily without disturbing her clutch because she is incubating in a nice cozy shelter inside the enclosure that she is filling up with her coils. I'm worried the eggs will roll/move if I move the shelter and take her out to feed her.

If I don't feed her it will have been about 3 1/2 months since this first-time mom will have eaten.

Questions:

1. With my info above should I just thaw a small rat and leave it in the enclosure *outside* of the protective shelter she's in? Note: male is now in separate cage.
2. Could she hurt an egg by striking at the thawed rat?
3. Also, if she eats I'm assuming she'll get back on the egg clutch...?
4. The temp is good (85-88F on clutch, 83F ambient) and the humidity is ok - should I not risk this and just let her be hungry until they hatch?

Much appreciated!

From the only pic of a female eating while incubating they offered it to her right where she was on the eggs and she ate without even uncoiling from them. But I've never tried it myself.

I fed her immediately after she was done incubating her eggs and I removed the unpipped eggs from her to finish off on their own. During her incubation period I avoided messing with her at all. This made about 9 months of her not eating in total. She took the food immediately, and has been a decent feeder since. I honestly am having a hard time convincing myself to not breed her again, considering she already (3 feedings) has put back on the weight from before I started breeding last.

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Originally Posted by hatchcrab

I by taking her out of the enclosure to feed her (frozen) in a separate large container (which I normally do.)

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Why do this?
There is no need to feed her in a seperate container ever. It will only add stress.
If you feed while incubating feed in her tank.

I honestly wouldn't suggest removing your snake from her eggs at all, unless you intend to artificially incubate. I have never seen my female more upset with me than when I removed her to count her eggs. And I have never seen her more psychologically distraught than when I did that. Her immediate reaction was to keep moving toward the tub, dodge my hand and hiss, and keep moving toward the tub. I felt horrible.

Pretty much everything that happens she will try and get back to her clutch. If you are going to feed, as said before just offer her food while she is on the clutch. Personally I will continue to maternally incubate, won't offer them food while they do so, and will remove them only once to count the eggs. Additionally during the pre-lay shed I will remove all bedding and put in fresh bedding, then not even bother to clean it more than spot-cleaning, if necessary. I loved maternal incubation, but I am going to mess with the snake as little as possible unless absolutely necessary. My own curiosity cost her a baby (she reacted and I'm sure that is what broke its neck), and honestly I would hate to ever remove the snake's eggs because of the stress generated by counting, and removal to finish incubation artificially.

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

This made about 9 months of her not eating in total.

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How old/large was your female when she went that long without eating?

I've had other pythons that went upwards of 10 months without eating - I know they can do it but I'm curious if yours was a larger snake.

Thanks for the reply.

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Originally Posted by StillBP

Why do this?
There is no need to feed her in a seperate container ever. It will only add stress.
If you feed while incubating feed in her tank.

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Fair question... these 2 snakes are technically my 10 year old daughter's snakes so my feeling is that by feeding them outside of their environment they would never expect that when I (or she) reach my hands in I'm potentially feeding them. It's never been an issue I just put them in a large storage bin, dangle a thawed frozen rodent in front of them and put them back in their terrarium after they eat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

I honestly wouldn't suggest removing your snake from her eggs at all, unless you intend to artificially incubate. I have never seen my female more upset with me than when I removed her to count her eggs. And I have never seen her more psychologically distraught than when I did that. Her immediate reaction was to keep moving toward the tub, dodge my hand and hiss, and keep moving toward the tub. I felt horrible.

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Wow - good advice based on experience for sure. That's my gut - to not mess with her. It's just tough because she was/is such a good eater and I know she's hungry. That being said I've had snakes in the past just stop eating for many months (a move to Chicago from Miami caused it in a big bad way!)

I suppose I should play it on the safe side and not feed then.

I wish I had put more bedding down right after that last shed. The eggs are currently on the glass because she's dug so deep. There is an under-mount heating pad but it's just off the to the side so I don't think it's over heating them. The temp is between 87-90 in the clutch so I'm thinking all is well.

Thanks for the advice.

IMO I would just leave her be till they hatch. Just keep the humidity up as high as you can and fresh water. When I bred my female she went from November till May(7 months) be starting to eat again. Both my fire/spider and Bee went 9months with out eating.



I wish I had put more bedding down right after that last shed. The eggs are currently on the glass because she's dug so deep. There is an under-mount heating pad but it's just off the to the side so I don't think it's over heating them. The temp is between 87-90 in the clutch so I'm thinking all is well.


I hope you have a THERMOSTAT with the UTH!!

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Originally Posted by hatchcrab

How old/large was your female when she went that long without eating?

I've had other pythons that went upwards of 10 months without eating - I know they can do it but I'm curious if yours was a larger snake.

Thanks for the reply.

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No longer have a working scale. It died in the last few years and I didn't replace it. She's easily like 2.5-3kg so I can't use my kitchen scale. Unlike on the babies. In total the birth weights of all her babies amount up to 1.5-2 of the rats I feed her. Even with going to the bathroom she definitely looks as big as she did before breeding. And she's probably going to grow a bit more before breeding season.

She's about 7 years old and has eaten regularly in that time (10-30% her body weight monthly, depending how often she wanted to eat) and this was her first time breeding

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hatchcrab

Fair question... these 2 snakes are technically my 10 year old daughter's snakes so my feeling is that by feeding them outside of their environment they would never expect that when I (or she) reach my hands in I'm potentially feeding them. It's never been an issue I just put them in a large storage bin, dangle a thawed frozen rodent in front of them and put them back in their terrarium after they eat.

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I can understand that.
But on the same argument is every time you take them out of their tank they will expect to be fed. I have more than a few snakes and have never had a issue with any being agressive when i reach into their tub.
Now i will not even attempt to tell you how to feed your snakes. You do what ever makes you the most comfortable
But there is no true advantage to feeding them in a different tub.
Again tho do what makes you the most comfortable
And again if you feed her while on eggs. Just do it in her tank. Not worth the risk of stressing her over a meal she may or may not eat

I would recommend feeding her within the enclosure so that she can stay close to the eggs and also not stress her out too much. I've incubated and hatched dozens of babies using maternal incubation and in every single case I've offered mom food while she was directly coiled around the eggs. If she's hungry, she will eat!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ybc2RU_L6EI

That was a great video. I love seeing her coiled back around her eggs!

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Originally Posted by blk02ssmonte

I hope you have a THERMOSTAT with the UTH!!

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I don't and I am a bit worried so I'm being as careful as I can. The UTM is only half-way under at best and the eggs are "off" of it to the left. I can pull the pad out/in to adjust. The temp probe only shows 88 right over where the pad is so I'm hoping the temp is ok. We'll see - first time dad - newbie mistake if I botch the clutch. Uggh.

Thermostat is a MUST not just for the eggs but for your snake. Those heat mats can go haywire and cook your snake if even the slightest thing goes wrong.

So great news! On day 61 they started hatching. One is completely out and there are at least 2 others trying to hatch. I'm temped to take mom out of the enclosure but I'm thinking at this point I shouldn't disrupt the process. My only concern (see pic) is, that while mom has moved some coils and isn't as tight around the clutch, she seems a bit clueless about the head position of the babies. As you can see in the pic her main coil is in contact with 2 that are trying to poke there heads out. Is there any risk (breathing or physical damage to necks) in allowing her to remain around the clutch as they hatch over the next couple days?

https://i.imgur.com/9G1THl0.jpg

So - perhaps partially answering my own question... the babies emerging seem pretty capable of wiggling around enough to make mom "jump" away so they get get air and emerge. I have a feeling all is well and I should leave them as is especially considering she's been maternally incubating for the last 2 months. I'm up to 4 out of 7 confirmed live babies. Hopefully more to come!

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Originally Posted by piedlover79

Thermostat is a MUST not just for the eggs but for your snake. Those heat mats can go haywire and cook your snake if even the slightest thing goes wrong.

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I second this. Glad to see you have babies though!! Pictures please when they're all out!

Will do regarding thermostat. I see people talking about the "Jump Start Thermostat" on amazon. I will pick one up unless you have another brand suggestion.

So I now have 6 out of 7 confirmed to be hatching. Hopefully they will all make it. I can't tell if the 7th is in the process of hatching due to the fact they are under a hide inside the tank. Here is a quick pic of one being born. So far it looks like one pastel and a couple spiders. I'm hoping to get a bumblebee or two.

I will post more once I've taken out momma and they have all made it out of the eggs.

https://i.imgur.com/SmvCiEC.jpg

I posted some pics of the hatchlings in a morph sub forum. Feel free to help me identify the morphs! I love the super-light pink ones. I'm not sure what they are.

We have 6 of 7 hatched and the 7th is taking its sweet time. Hopefully by the AM he will come out of the egg.

The mom is a spider and the dad is a pastel.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...lp-me-ID-Morph

Congrats on the new babies!

Phew! Nice job. Congrats. Put a "RUSH" on that thermostat. :D