There is a learning curve, I think

My local library has several ball python books on reserve for me and I have three on my shelf. Some of them are aimed at beginners, some aimed at advanced breeders. I read them all, but i have to make a decision between right husbandry and incorrect husbandry with only three months of experience. When I found this forum, I was so excited to learn from so many people who knew so much, and could help me tell right from wrong, and that a vet I trusted gave me terrible advice.

That's the thing. You don't have a list (at first) of which opinion is correct when you haven't had a lot of experience. Sometimes I and others ask questions that seem annoying or silly but I ask because I trust this forum to point me in the right direction.

Ball pythons are amazing animals, but they can also be complex, frustrating, shy and finicky. They are a rather daunting pet to care for properly, and I imagine the majority of BP owners don't get solid advice from, say, this website. I've read a couple of posts from people who kept ball pythons for years and had no idea that their husbandry wasn't ideal. You all helped them change.

I hesitate to post even this in case it gets a negative response, but we all share a love of ball pythons. Some of us are veterans and some of us just bought a snake yesterday. Regardless, there's a person on the other side of the screen, perhaps the other side of the world, who truly do mean well. Who truly do want to learn.

I love ball pythons and I research husbandry and genetics obsessively. But a couple of times I've cried while reading responses to some posts and while I realize that's a bit dramatic (hard to help it), would it hurt to be more kind sometimes? Of course I'm not singling anyone out; we could all probably stand to be more kind. And this forum itself says "the friendliest place on the Internet"

Most people don't understand why we love snakes. It's a relatively small community. Why hurt your own kind?

i am scared to post this and I am scared it will be deleted but i like this ball python community so much that it is startling when a comment can make one tear up.

To be fair, so do dog food commercials, so.

i agree 100 percent. Ive seen people that dont know nothing about snakes start a post and technically get flamed or shot down. I really liked reading everying one memeber wrote until i saw theyre response to this newbie. It was hard for me to stay out of it. The memeber was correct about the information they put in theyre reply but it seemed to be put in a rude way imo. Anyways love and kindness ftw

I think the private message feature might be good to work out misunderstandings, too. Sometimes communication styles don't mesh immediately.

I am not one to blow rainbows and fluf.
Many people dont like to be told straight up truth.
For me its about the animals first.

Of course it's about the animals first; we all joined a forum to discuss animals. But that information is filtered through the keepers of said animals.

Also, Pit, I haven't really noticed your input being undiplomatic anyway.

This is post is starting to make me uncomfortable; feel free to delete or not. I think I personally have come across negatively in my posts and for that i apologize.

I generally feel where you're coming from here. There most definitely is a learning curve when you're basically self-teaching through information already put out there rather than dealing with a single, trustworthy mentor figure to answer your questions. There is plenty of contradictory information out there regarding just about anything, and it can be difficult to sift through mis-information.

As far as the people... you can catch anybody when they're not their best, or sometimes people want to help, but they feel burnt out on the same questions over the years. But there's a lot of different personalities out there. Not everyone has a really friendly demeanor, but that doesn't mean that they don't have valuable information or input to share with you. And not everyone is cut out to be the patient mentor for the noobies for years on end. But sometimes whoever is on and willing to respond is just what ya get.

If everyone was a little nicer I think that'd be lovely, too. But, people have their reasons.

I think the thing that has helped me the most is to have a couple dozen snakes instead of just one or two. I think people can get misled from what their snake acts like, seems like most of my snakes are very different. I have some ball pythons that are real friendly, some real mean, some that eat anything and some that only eat live. If I only had one mean one that would only eat live it would skew my perception of the breed.

The straight forward and terse answers don't bother me. Normally they are always in response to something that is bad for, or outright dangerous to the snakes. Well being of the animal trumps a person's feelings every time.

Personally, I don't find ball pythons difficult to care for, ive only been a ball python owner for 4 months myself. A quick Google search on the species and you can learn they are a nocturnal, terrestrial species from West sub-saharan Africa that spend the majority of their time aestivating in termite mounds or small animal burrows. Keep that in mind with a goal of recreating their natural habitat and wading through captive care recommendations becomes very straight forward and ends you up with a appropriate set up.

A see a lot of common sense stuff go out the window with pet reptiles and people trying to treat them like domestic or social animals. A lot of "loving your snake to death". Handling too close to meals, while acclimating to a new environment, while the snake is sick or otherwise already stressed. I see a lot of posts that start with "I know I shouldn't have done X but I did it anyways". I see a lot of posts where people don't have thermostats with their UTHs, but on most UTH packaging they have warnings and state they should be used with thermostats. It's frustrating. I can understand why some people come off as being "mean".

Also, to state the obvious, this is an online forum. Tone and intent do not come across well through text. Some are going to read what I wrote and think "omg this Voodoo person is such a female dog" others are going to think "Oh wow, this Voodoo person is pretty even keel and insightful". If you find yourself dealing with negative emotions that affect you deeply from reading responses on an online forum, then maybe this type of venue isn't right for you. Sometimes breaks away from the keyboard helps, sometimes you just have to find a community you click with better.

Personally, I find this place well moderated, helpful and overall pretty friendly :)

Personally, I find this place well moderated, helpful and overall pretty friendly :)[/QUOTE]


I agree. Most info we get and give here is basically constructive criticism. :gj:

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Originally Posted by m1lkhoney

This is post is starting to make me uncomfortable; feel free to delete or not. I think I personally have come across negatively in my posts and for that i apologize.

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Everyone that posts is responsible for and held accountable for what they post, we don't ever just delete posts.
I also don't see anything negative about it, just conversation.

I have to agree there to be honest, sometimes responses here could definitely be done less ... rude. It's one thing to be truthful and not sugar-coat, and another to be outright rude... Some more hippies, peace, and flowers would be dandy ;) After all a lot o people are new to the community and it's no help to intimidate them with harsh attitude into not wanting to ask at all!

I would rather sugar-coat a few times than have a newbie accidentally harm their snake because they're too afraid to seek out help, due to the fear of backlash.

Let's take that "friendliest community" slogan up there and actually make an effort to live up to it, guys, gals, and non-binary pals! :)

The thing to keep in mind about internet communication in general is that you miss the context, facial expressions, and tone of voice that you see in person. Also, people are often in a hurry or typing on small devices, so they are more concerned with efficiency than with politeness. So things can sound crankier or meaner than they would, just due to the delivery mechanism.

On top of that, people are less concerned with being polite because they aren't talking to you in person, and they also figure that long posts don't get read thoroughly; and it's the polite parts that make them longer. The anonymity of the internet, etc.

Or they want to get the point across unambiguously, as in "Take that hot rock out of your tank right this minute so your animal doesn't get burned". Maybe it sounds ruder than "I would recommend replacing your hot rock with a different heat source, since they are a common cause of burns," but it gets the point across that this isn't something you should just wait until you get around to it.

All that is to say, you'll be happier in your internet communications generally if you can develop a slightly thicker skin, and realize that even things that sound rude or knee-jerk may just be how people type and nothing more personal than that.

As an aside:

Different cultures have different mrans of going about things. This is often why New Yorkers are considered rude by tourists. However what the tourists do not realize is that they are often being extraordinarily rude in the New York environment, which is to say one where polite is keeping up with foot traffic, not stopping, and cutting to the point. Different cultures conflict heavily and cause major misunderstandings because one person doesn't understand they are being rude to the other person.

This is further exaggerated on the internet as the different cultures set different people's mindsets, so one means of talking is rude to one group, but the other group's means of talking is rude. My experiences in a kitchen setting have been ripping one another down and "burning" eachother constantly. This is just the environment and how the interpersonal relationships have developed, it's a hoot to everyone in there, but an outside observer could easily misconstrue it as cut throat and mean.

What's more, the internet allows for anominity, so people tend to let inner demons run rampant, without really understanding there is a person on the other end. This can be extreme as horrible racism showing through on ones facebook, or as subtle as giving harsh direct advice to someone who you would never do that to because their demeanor would suggest a soft touch would be wise.

Finally, especially in the US, we have been gradually taught to hold out opinions and views to heart, so an attack on one's views and opinions becomes an assault against the person. Most of this is due to learned behavior from others and from our abyssmal media system. The end result is while one person may find homosexuality (hot button topic used as an example) as an abomination, and another person challenges their view, because it is not seen by the second person as one that allows for acceptance or even coexistance, as a means to open discourse and help better develop eachother's worldview, the first person becomes extremely hostile, as if a fight were about to start. The end result is often between dislike and violence between the people. All because people hold their views and oppinions as too close to their heart as family.

I would love to see everyone getting along happily on forums, but as the others have already said, there are just too many personalities from too many different places that are coming together in one spot for everyone to mesh well. Also, as the others have pointed out, it's hard for feeling and emotions to convey properly through text. The use of emojis help, but not everyone feels the need to use those :confuzd: :D

I was a tutoring manager at my college when I was in school. We had professionals come in every month to hold training sessions for all of us who tutored, teaching us how to be better teachers and more successful with our students. One of the first things you learn from training and experience is that the vast majority of people are much more receptive to criticism and instruction when it is offered in a positive and friendly manner. When you start talking down, snipping at, flaming, etc., the person you are offering the information to becomes defensive and less receptive. 8 times out of 10 they become resentful, and chances are they will not return for help in the future. So, while I understand how the others feel that the "animals come first," they are really shooting themselves in the foot. What good is all the advice in the world if the receiving end is no longer listening?

That being said, most people in forums are not tutors/teachers. They're just your average Janes and Joes from all walks of life, who just happen to share a common interest in what the forum pertains to. The personalities will vary, just like in any social gathering. We all work with or attend school with people who we really don't care for or get along with, and you will run into similar issues here. Different forums have certain core groups that help set the tone of the posts, so you can always shop around for other forums if you feel a certain one isn't right for you, but just keep in mind that you're more than likely always going to run into some buttheads no matter where you go.

Cheers!

I think people's problem is that many are overly sensitive and read things between lines that are not even there and interpret it as rude.

If people cannot handle being told the truth like any adult in real life would who's fault is this?

The truth is just that the truth it should not have to be sugar coated like if people were children.

Good thing this is online got to make you wonder how people even function in real life when they hear the truth.

This rude post was brought to you by me.


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I've seen some very stern responses that read by itself weren't rude but simply direct; however those statements followed up by ':rolleyes:' or something snarky makes the intent rather off-putting (IMO). There are forums that are much worse in regards to users being rude so this one isn't overly bad (again, IMO). I avoid FB and from what I've heard of reptile groups on there, probably good thing to do. haha

I do agree that having the same issues or questions come up constantly (when the answers are usually a simple search away) can get very tiresome. Newbies can search for answers before asking but everyone likes to think their situation and animals are distinct and unique which I believe causes the same questions getting asked... or maybe it really is the fact that people are too lazy to search sometimes. I try to recall when I first started out with reptiles and was asking all sorts of silly questions how nice it was to get helpful responses. Embracing each other with kindness can go a long way towards fostering good relationships and knowledge sharing. We do all have our off days though.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

I think people's problem is that many are overly sensitive

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Or that some people just lack tact. Again, it has nothing to do with whether or not the information is "truth." If you truly care about the animals, being polite will net you much more success than talking down to people.

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Originally Posted by DarthSlitherus

Or that some people just lack tact. Again, it has nothing to do with whether or not the information is "truth." If you truly care about the animals, being polite will net you much more success than talking down to people.

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Again personal interpretation based on either being overly sensitive or reading things that are not there.

Should we have a safe zone too?

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You're a feisty one, aren't you? I did not interpret anything that wasn't there; you're just being purposefully argumentative.

What is a safe zone?

I think everyone involved would benefit from a course in collaborative communication followed by a weekend at the landmark forum. But hey, what do I know.

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Originally Posted by enginee837

I think everyone involved would benefit from a course in collaborative communication followed by a weekend at the landmark forum. But hey, what do I know.

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I think it would be more interesting to find a way to get everyone in a room face to face........ :cool:

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

I think it would be more interesting to find a way to get everyone in a room face to face........ :cool:

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Will there be a rainbow and a unicorn?

I do know and have met several members of this forum.
Its easy to missunderstand and/or hide behind this great interweb that we use.
I like meeting people and then reading their past posts.
I also like going back and reading past posts of those that did get all hurt and then realized those of us that are a little more blunt were not doing it for any other reason than that it is just the way we are.
Then again my wife always laughs when I hit one of yall for language violations. Over 20 years in the automotive field, if I can keep it clean here then anyone can...

I got a language violation once, actually. Oopsies.

Lots of interesting responses, thanks. I may have also forgotten to mention that I'm studying to be a peer counselor and I talk to suicidal teens/adults on a mental health website. Therefore I'm just conditioned to use words carefully and sometimes forget to get out of "work mode". On top of that, I have a psych condition that makes neutral comments often sound like negative comments. I'm working on it.

And no, I am not requesting unicorns or rainbows. In fact I wonder why people like them at all, considering they could in theory stab you.

I wrote another post about a scary incident I had with my snake and I see it got a lot of replies, for example. I'm sure some are constructive but some may be blunt enough to upset me a lot. I'll read the replies eventually but I'm having a difficult day so perhaps now is not the time.

Thank you you again for all the answers.

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Originally Posted by m1lkhoney

Lots of interesting responses, thanks. I may have also forgotten to mention that I'm studying to be a peer counselor and I talk to suicidal teens/adults on a mental health website.

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I as there once. That was also the night my wife told me she was pregnant.........
That .44 mag is still in my gun safe in the exact same condition it was in after I spun the cylinder.
Lets just leave it as I would have painted the whole ceiling had she not come into the room 21 years ago.
It is a reminder for me.

Was in the ICU for an overdose in February. Someone found me in time.

Have not been your exact there, but I've been a kind of there.

Anyway, I sure do love ball pythons!

Last response was not meant to be flippant, by the way. Just didn't want to make you uncomfortable. :)

I see a lot of newer people come on here and post about how their snake won't eat and it takes an act of Congress to get any details of the set up because the person insists "It's set up fine!" Then finally they mention the snake is in a 50g glass aquarium with heat lamps and a heat rock and no hides but "it's fine I just want to know how to make it eat!".

When you post "If you don't put your UTH on a thermostat, you could burn your snake" and get a response of "omg ur so mean! I luve my sneak!" with unhappy emotes, you could start to understand why people get just a tad ornery when people start to cry about how everyone should be "nicer".

When you have someone who insists they can't take their beloved pet to a vet and so we should just stop being so mean and tell them how to treat the rodent gnawed wounds they've ignored for a month, then it starts to become more clear.

Of course, we should all treat every new person who comes in with supreme kindness and gentle questions so as to not make them uncomfortable with the truth that they have been making their snake stressed/ill/injured. But we're all human(except maybe Deborah, I think she's a cranky computer program) and some days a tiny bit more snark or a snappish reply does make it onto the web.

One thing you cannot fault is that this is one of the nicest forums online. If you don't believe me, please visit several of the other ones and compare. Another thing no one can dispute is that THIS forum is made up of people who really have the animal's best interest in mind... even when it might hurt the owner's feelings to hear it.

And if a person is too shy or afraid to ask for advice, we also have a metric buttload of caresheets posted on the forums that have all the info without needing any threads at all, in most cases.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

And if a person is too shy or afraid to ask for advice, we also have a metric buttload of caresheets posted on the forums that have all the info without needing any threads at all, in most cases.

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Thats why you are in purple LoL

I know when i first got my snake i joined a few forums, and this is the only one i stay on precisely b/c the members are so much more civil than on the others. Sometimes i see a terse reply here or there, but really small potatoes when you see some of the flame-jobs that get tossed around on other sites.
That being said, i have been guilty myself of copping a 'tude with nubes - not here - but on a FB page for software i use. My favorite passive-aggressive way to express my distain is to make a "let me google that for you" link for them. Gets the point across without being nasty.
If you haven't seen it, check out lmgtfy.com, its hilarious!

Better yet, go to this link for an example http://bfy.tw/7MSf -Nothing rude or obscene, i assure you.

Terse or not, I appreciate all the advice I've been given here. Maybe people could stand to be more "nice", but I'd never want them to refrain from telling my the truth, even when the truth might hurt my feelings. I don't particularly care whether or not the truth is sugar-coated so long as I can figure out what I need to do to tend to my snakes to the best of my ability.


I also understand that a lot of people here get asked the same questions over and over again. It must be frustrating. I wish that the proper guidelines for ball python husbandry were out there, and given to everyone ho owns one of these gorgeous animals. Unfortunately there are still plenty of snakes out there slithering around in dry enclosures, or along heat rocks without any hides. As long as pet stores are more interested in profits than they are in the proper care of animals this will keep happening. And they're not the only culprits, there are negligent owners and misinformation abounds everywhere. I think most of the negativity comes from people who are sick of seeing snakes mistreated, not out of a desire to attack or demean anyone.

Maybe this will sound harsh, but try not to take it so personally. Even if you were doing something wrong that doesn't mean you're a bad person. We all make mistakes. Take your newfound knowledge and do better next time. That's all any of us can do.

Here is your warning. I am going to be brash.

When you post things like:

"
Two issues: his respiratory infection mayve didn't clear up and I took my (old) vet's advice and put a few drops of tea tree oil in his humidity spray bottle to "naturally disinfect. Eye roll. He's going to the herp vet emergency room in an hour.

But im serious when I say he was LITERALLY DEAD AND I WAS WONDERING WHERE TO BURY HIM BEFORE HE ROSE LIKE JESUS. Is this why they live so long? So they can outlive you and eventually control our galaxy?"

This is what you said while nonchalantly talking about your snake seizing out. After being incorrectly taken care of after being diagnosed by a vet as having an RI.
From what I see, advice was given to you once about your BP, By more than one senior member, and you basically said lol whatever and did what you wanted anyways.

People don't put up with that - not people who truly love ball pythons and animal wellbeing.

May I suggest buying a Chihuahua and selling your BP to an owner that will properly care for it and not clothe it in a sweater?

At first I thought wow what a bunch of jerks (the interwebs has a way of not being able to emote ha) but then again I'm far from a sensitive human being. If it wasn't for stern and ACCURATE information from Deb, Kara, Justin and Nate at the time and a little side help from Brian Barczyk I wouldn't have the collection I have now in the excellent health and care that they're in. There's no need to sugarcoat hard truth. Just my 2 cents.


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Just wanted to add, I've found this site to be one of the friendliest and most openminded actually! There are some snake communities out there that are just.... whoo. Not fun, super close-minded, and actually pick fights with you with verbal abuse if you don't do things EXACTLY how they do it, even if you aren't having issues. They attack you for even considering the use of pvccages, glass tanks, even if the keeper has all the right equipment and the temps and humidity are fine and the snake is even healthy. Not cool at all!

That is, I'm really only thinking of one specific community... Most others, including this one, are friendly and understand all the aspects and different ways of snake keeping.