Performing with snakes: Too Stressful for BPs?

Hello, all.

I'm starting this with a sad story. I am a belly dancer, and for a couple of years, I had a beautiful ball python pet who would occasionally dance with me at performances. He developed a massive bacterial infection and died suddenly a couple of years ago. He was a beloved pet, so I still struggle with his death to this day.

When he died, I took him to his herp vet for an autopsy to figure out what happened. After the vet gave his diagnosis, he stated that ball pythons become sick very easily when stressed, and that BPs can be stressed by loud noise, sudden movements, etc. I told him that I am a belly dancer and that my snake was sometimes a companion of mine onstage. I am not a BP behavioural expert, but my snake did not seem to exhibit the typical signs of stress during these performances (though he did take a few moments to come out of his ball before we went onstage in a new environment, which was why I took time to get him comfortable on my shoulders and 'unwound' before attempting to perform with him.)

The vet didn't quite scold me, but it was clear that he did not approve. He told me that snakes were not performance creatures, especially ball pythons. He told me that loud music and crowds would be a very stressful environment for ball pythons, and that BPs in fact should be handled minimally and treated more as an "observational" pet, like a fish, rather than handled regularly or taken outside the home.

I had never heard this before, and I know of fellow performers who also dance with ball pythons, so I was inclined no to believe him, but he is a herp vet, with far more extensive knowledge about BP behaviour than I certainly have. Now that I am considering getting another BP, I would love to hear from all of you long-experienced BP owners about this. Do BPs lack the constitution to perform with a dancer, even with "training?" (controlled exposure to people, loud noises like music, and dance movements) If I wanted to perform with my new BP, would I be putting their health at risk? Did my performing with my snake contribute to his death? (don't worry about hurting my feelings on this one--I already blame myself for not getting him to the vet in time to save him. If I contributed to his death in another way, I want to know so I don't repeat this with another pet.)

Any insight is much appreciated. I would love to have a BP again, even if I don't perform with them.

Thank you so much!

~Siren

Yes, that would be a very stressful environment for any snake... Ball pythons in particular are easily stressed out if just something isn't right, whether it's even just temperature or humidity inside their own enclosure, or if they even just need one extra hide.

They could be handled gently regularly though, so still not exactly like fish. But even being taken outside of the home for an hour or two is a stressful trip for a ball python.

Unfortunately, ball pythons are very instinct-based and can't be "trained" like a dog or cat. You can't train them to get "used to" loud environments and incorrect temperatures, for example, just because you expose it to improper temperatures often. That would simple lead to stress, illness, and probably early death like in your case.

ETA: A ball python can be completely stressed out and not show any particular signs at all. Sometimes, they can even be ill for months and not show any particular change in behavior, until they suddenly become severely sick and die in the next week.

Sorry for the double post, but this suddenly reminded me- back when I was 11 years old and didn't have much common sense yet, I asked a forum if I could bring my ball python (that I didn't have yet) to the beach or the shopping mall with me. Someone replied, explaining how crazy that was and how stressful that would be for the snake, and called me a dummy. :\

Other than the part about ball pythons only being there to observe (which I'm thinking was just said to keep you from bringing another snake to a dance stage), your herp vet is absolutely correct.

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Originally Posted by Siren

Do BPs lack the constitution to perform with a dancer, even with "training?"

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Yes they do. They can’t be trained.

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Originally Posted by Siren

Did my performing with my snake contribute to his death?

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That’s impossible to say. Best case scenario is that the snake was exposed to an extremely stressful situation that was certainly not in its best interest.

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Originally Posted by Siren

I want to know so I don't repeat this with another pet

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Don’t ever perform with a BP or any other reptile again. These are not social animals. It’s a frightening experience for them and they may or may not show it.

I have brought my eldest BP along as a prop when I volunteered at a local haunted house here in town, but I've decided I'm not going to do it anymore due to the stress it no doubt brings her. I'm glad you posted what you did because it reaffirms my decision. A lot of people take their snakes out and use them in performance but I just don't know how I feel about it since it's hard enough to tell when something is wrong with a BP when it's moderately healthy and just going through a non-eating phase. My snake never missed a beat with her feeding schedule, pooping, peeing or shedding so I ASSUMED that taking her with me to the haunted house didn't do any harm, but what do I know?

I have come to realize over the years that the more I appreciate the ball python, the more I realize I am here for their stewardship, and not vice-versa. If I can make their lives here easier and more pleasant, then so be it. Even if that means I don't get to hold them or "play with them" as much, that's fine with me because I think it's best for the snake.

That's my two cents, anyway. :)

I imagine it would be incredibly stressful on them. Your vet is right- listen to him.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk

Everyone is right. They're both picky and instinctual. Even the slightest change in the tank can stress them. If you'd never heard of it before your own pet died, I'd say you hadn't done much research on them before you bought one. No offence, but you should definitely research an animal's behaviors and needs before you buy any pet. It's an unfortunate story, but hopefully it doesn't happen again.

Ok, I'm going to rock the boat in order to clarify some things. Can ball pythons be trained? Depends on your definition of trained. Can they be conditioned? Absolutely. Guys you can't have it both ways. Snakes that are conditioned to eat outside their container can become nippy right? If so you have conditioned them to eat when they come out.

I am going to maintain that if the animal is eating and shedding properly the animal is not stressed. Can loud music especially bass irritate a ball python? Yes, but not all of them care.

Should the OP have taken the snake dancing? Its her snake. If the snake is behaving normally this activity in and of itself probably did not stress the animal into death. I call bull kaka on the vet and the people that say otherwise. Most of my animals would not be bothered by this. If my youngest daughter has not stressed mine to death it is probably not going to happen. There is nothing quite like seeing your 2k animal go running full tilt down the hallway while being held by a yelling 5 year old (timeout time). My snakes end up playing house, playing snake store and watching My Little Pony. They are fine.

What the OP has done that I don't do is allow my snakes to leave the house. If I could bet on it I would say that the temps of the environment were out of the acceptable range for too long or most likely the snake just caught something. This is the same reason I think it is absolutely insane to do something like take your animal into a PetCo.

I probably should have clarified that my snake died just under 11 months after I last performed with him. I sometimes took him out on the porch or in the yard on humid days, but he died in March in Ohio; I hadn't taken him out of the house since the previous August or September--it tends to get too cold in Ohio after that. The fact that he died from a bacterial infection threw me off because I was meticulous about maintaining the cleanliness of his enclosure. Before he died, I had been having trouble maintaining the humidity in his enclosure, so I had changed him to a tub. I told the vet all of this, but he focused on my performing with him. I guess I'll never know for sure, but I am worried that performing added to his stress levels, though he was eating and shedding fairly frequently in the 11 months between his last performance and his death.

I thank you all for your responses, but they do concern me because of those I know who perform with snakes, and of the snake educators I know, like BGSU's Dr. Underwood, with whom I used to take BPs and other reptiles into classrooms to educate children when I was an undergrad way back when. Is this also dangerously stressful for BPs?

I promise I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I truly apologize if I'm coming off that way. I'm just getting a lot of contradictory information about snakes, and I want to be clear and well informed so I can be the best possible pet owner I can be with my next BP.

Comes down to this. Each animal is an individual. Things bother some and not others. Just like all other living things. You will know when something bothers a ball. Heavy breathing is a good indicator. A sudden change in behavior is another. I have four children. The snakes don't mind them. There are two of my snakes that are off limits because of attitude problems. I did not raise them, but they are coming around. Most problems with balls have to do with husbandry issues or infections from outside sources. They are actually very easy animals to keep. Proper handling is not going to stress an animal that is not already having issues.

Also, when looking for advice, try to determine how much experience the one giving the advice has. There are those who like to just repeat things they have heard and may only keep one or two animals. What they say may be true for their animals but it may not be true across a larger population. There are also experienced people that may disagree every now and then, but that is because there is more than one way to skin a cat.

This is what makes this board great. Things can be discussed. I personally have learned a lot here.

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Originally Posted by Siren

I probably should have clarified that my snake died just under 11 months after I last performed with him. I sometimes took him out on the porch or in the yard on humid days, but he died in March in Ohio; I hadn't taken him out of the house since the previous August or September--it tends to get too cold in Ohio after that. The fact that he died from a bacterial infection threw me off because I was meticulous about maintaining the cleanliness of his enclosure. Before he died, I had been having trouble maintaining the humidity in his enclosure, so I had changed him to a tub. I told the vet all of this, but he focused on my performing with him. I guess I'll never know for sure, but I am worried that performing added to his stress levels, though he was eating and shedding fairly frequently in the 11 months between his last performance and his death.

I thank you all for your responses, but they do concern me because of those I know who perform with snakes, and of the snake educators I know, like BGSU's Dr. Underwood, with whom I used to take BPs and other reptiles into classrooms to educate children when I was an undergrad way back when. Is this also dangerously stressful for BPs?

I promise I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I truly apologize if I'm coming off that way. I'm just getting a lot of contradictory information about snakes, and I want to be clear and well informed so I can be the best possible pet owner I can be with my next BP.

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Well, like Jodan said, each animal is an individual. What can stress out some ball pythons may not stress others. Some ball pythons curl into a ball right away when afraid or stressed, while some will never become a ball or some will just strike and act temperamental.

If it were my snake personally, I would choose to just play it safe and only handle in the home. Since there seems to be contradictory information, I'd think it would be better to take all sides into account, and make your best decision based on what we all know about ALL ball pythons for fact- they need warmth, they spend many hours of a day hiding comfortably, and they may or may not show any indicators when they are stressed or ill, until it's too late.

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Originally Posted by Siren

I probably should have clarified that my snake died just under 11 months after I last performed with him. I sometimes took him out on the porch or in the yard on humid days, but he died in March in Ohio; I hadn't taken him out of the house since the previous August or September--it tends to get too cold in Ohio after that. The fact that he died from a bacterial infection threw me off because I was meticulous about maintaining the cleanliness of his enclosure. Before he died, I had been having trouble maintaining the humidity in his enclosure, so I had changed him to a tub. I told the vet all of this, but he focused on my performing with him. I guess I'll never know for sure, but I am worried that performing added to his stress levels, though he was eating and shedding fairly frequently in the 11 months between his last performance and his death.

I thank you all for your responses, but they do concern me because of those I know who perform with snakes, and of the snake educators I know, like BGSU's Dr. Underwood, with whom I used to take BPs and other reptiles into classrooms to educate children when I was an undergrad way back when. Is this also dangerously stressful for BPs?

I promise I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I truly apologize if I'm coming off that way. I'm just getting a lot of contradictory information about snakes, and I want to be clear and well informed so I can be the best possible pet owner I can be with my next BP.

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I also taught many educational classes with kids many years ago with everything from Burmese to bar necked scrub pythons. All were tame enough handle and none of the ones we used stressed out from it. All ate regularly and acted normal. With that said, not all of the snakes that we interacted with were cut out for regular interaction. It was not species specific either, some individuals tolerated it and some did not. It all came down to paying close attention to all of your specimens. Keeping good feeding/shed/behavior records and documenting what if anything had an adverse affect on any of the above mentioned. In the end our best girl was a beautiful female aru local chondro. She would eat while hanging from your arm. Never even hinted at wanting to strike out of aggression or defense and tolerated being handled all day by anyone that wanted to hold her (provided ambient conditions permitted it).
You also need to realize that sometimes snakes just get sick and pass and there is not much you will be able to do about it. Yes stress can play a factor but just like people, each individual snake is different and some are just not as hardy as others. I would not beat yourself up too much over this.

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Originally Posted by enginee837

I also taught many educational classes with kids many years ago with everything from Burmese to bar necked scrub pythons. All were tame enough handle and none of the ones we used stressed out from it. All ate regularly and acted normal. With that said, not all of the snakes that we interacted with were cut out for regular interaction. It was not species specific either, some individuals tolerated it and some did not. It all came down to paying close attention to all of your specimens. Keeping good feeding/shed/behavior records and documenting what if anything had an adverse affect on any of the above mentioned. In the end our best girl was a beautiful female aru local chondro. She would eat while hanging from your arm. Never even hinted at wanting to strike out of aggression or defense and tolerated being handled all day by anyone that wanted to hold her (provided ambient conditions permitted it).
You also need to realize that sometimes snakes just get sick and pass and there is not much you will be able to do about it. Yes stress can play a factor but just like people, each individual snake is different and some are just not as hardy as others. I would not beat yourself up too much over this.

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Wow. A chondro. I am seriously impressed. I personally have not handled one, but from what I have heard this should not have been possible. Goes to show that everything you hear is not true. Maybe I need to reconsider keeping one. They are absolutely beautiful animals.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Wow. A chondro. I am seriously impressed. I personally have not handled one, but from what I have heard this should not have been possible. Goes to show that everything you hear is not true. Maybe I need to reconsider keeping one. They are absolutely beautiful animals.

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Granted this is a big time generalization but typically the Aru local variety are more calm. Avoid Biak as they are much larger and from my experience like the taste of your face. But keep in mind that I do not know if the locals I mentioned actually are where their bloodlines come from. There is a lot of misinformation on that topic. Typically (in my experience) the local is estimated by visual traits (color and size) as well as temperament. Most of the Aru chondros I have seen have a very smooth almost wet green look to them with white and yellow specs and a light to defined blue dorsal line. They are also rather small compared to biaks. Most captive bred specimens I have come across were fairly tolerant of interaction however avoid reaching in the cage at night as they are usually in feeding mode and as arboreal snakes that eat birds in the wild, they do not ask questions before tasting.
There are more local types of chondros that have popped up over the years but the only two I am familiar with are the Aru and Biak. Biak are beautiful to look at but do not touch kind of snakes, Aru are still pretty but not as much variation in color and are friendly. Oh and I don't think Aru produce the brick red babies. They are all yellow. Biak make Red and yellow babies.

We actually have a pair of chondros in our future. I am trying to find a local that looks and acts like an Aru as an adult but has the potential of making the brick red babies. I want my kids to see the diversity and also the parallel evolution between them and the emerald tree boas. I know some have crossed the biak and aru lines to create this but I am not sure how I feel about that and I also prefer the look of the adult aru to the mixed colors and "dry" looking green of the biak.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Wow. A chondro. I am seriously impressed. I personally have not handled one, but from what I have heard this should not have been possible. Goes to show that everything you hear is not true. Maybe I need to reconsider keeping one. They are absolutely beautiful animals.

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I keep a couple of GTP and find they are no more aggressive or difficult to handle than the average carpet python. During daylight hours. After dark they hit anything that moves no questions asked.

Thanks Jodanornodan & everyone else who gave input to this thread! I realize this is an older thread but It still helped me out. Recently I've been having an issue I addressed on here and it seems like some of the people are just repeating what the last person said. Funny thing is, no matter what the issue, people will say, "what's the temp in their tank?" Which is an important piece of information but sometimes it's just a little asinine. My snake bit someone; what's the temp like? My snake has blue balls; what's the temp like? My snake just had a 20 egg clutch with lizards inside! OMG whats the temp like?! lol There is more than one way to skin a cat definitely applies to this. Although I might not take my snakes onstage with me, I still have a son who loves to handle them (which I rarely allow but only with the most supervision). I have many, many animals, most are pets but I also have feeder mice/rats. Understandably a snake has more sensitive senses when it comes down to what's causing them stress, but does your dog get car sick? Thats because he's stressed but sometimes you still need to take him somewhere (like to the vet). One of my snakes (Spotted python) loves to soak in his water bowl (sometimes for hours) and I was regularly giving them all quick soaks in the tub but recently people have been giving me crap for that. I know a lady who lets her snakes swim in a pool outside and she's done that for 20+ years! They are individuals and some can get stressed where others do not but to tell someone on here (without seeing their animals swimming) that they don't like the water and its bad for them, but their snake has a tub with only 2" of water in the deep end and NO water towards the back with a folded towel and the snake chooses to stay in the water.... you get the picture.

This is a great forum with a lot of great people, I loved finding it and joining just a month ago, but I will always fact check anything I have concern for because most of everything is opinion (just like wherever you're at,
I also give my opinion and so do you).
Keep on keeping on! God bless you all!