Derma Ball - Enter if you dare!

Okay, being that I let the veritable hairless cat out of the bag, I wanted to find out what everyone thought of one of the latest discoveries in the Ball Python World. Here is a picture of the Derma Ball: Derma Ball Picture

Personally, I think it is rather pathetic looking and would never want to own one. I'm not sure what the lack of scales and heat pits would mean to a python and whether it would affect the quality of life or its survival, but on a purely aesthetic view, I like to see my snakes with all the right parts especially scales.

I don't see this as a morph, but rather a handicap although that is speculative at this point until more is known about the function of scales and heat pits are in captivity. However, if it is determined to be detrimental to a snake, but not necessarily fatal, how would you feel about breeders propagating this anomaly for financial gain? I'm sure there would always be a market for anything "different" in the Ball Python industry, and it probably wouldn't be much different than a two-headed snake, but personally how would you feel about the breeder?

Just thought I would throw this out there and find out what other people thought.

I cant see the pic - but it sounds like a ghastly collection of defects - no scales?! no heat-pits!?

(EDIT - some pebbly scales present but huge swatches just missing :()


Here are the original threads/pics from VPI - please do not link the pics here - that's bandwidth snatching:

Derma Ball Links via VPI

Just click on the links with DERMA in them and view the attachments.

I'd host them if I knew who to ask permission of but the original poster is remaining anonymous (theres a shocker)

Bizarre looking - I would hope thats not a trait being bred for - would be akin to breeding for eyelessness.

I don't like it. I really don't care for the fact that huge swatches of scales are missing. I can just see a snake like that having issues later on.

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Originally Posted by Schlyne

I don't like it. I really don't care for the fact that huge swatches of scales are missing. I can just see a snake like that having issues later on.

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Okay, but for arguments sake what would you think if it didn't have any issues later on? Would you consider it another morph or something else? I don't think one can define a morph as solely being a change in the coloration of a snake as many dwarf snakes are considered morphs, too.

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Would you consider it another morph or something else? I don't think one can define a morph as solely being a change in the coloration of a snake as many dwarf snakes are considered morphs, too.

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Where are its pits? How would it feed? In those scaleless areas how much pressure from a rat claw would it take to rip the skin? You could draw parallels that would evoke extreme pathos - as it is I feel bad for that little fella (assuming it hatched with a complete set of genitalia).

From what I have read the animal started right up feeding and has not stopped I saw it earlier this week on the RDR journal.. This inst the first time this has happened.. there is a line of albino rattlesnakes that this happens to

That's quite a set of photos of that baby. First, as to whether it's a "morph": the dictionary (check www.dictionary.com) has morph as meaning

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One of various distinct forms of an organism or species.

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and I am familiar with its meaning being something along the lines of "a visually distinctive variation of a species brought about by natural or unnatural selective breeding within the species." By either of those definitions, I'd say this is a morph, though we generally only use that term to refer to color and pattern morphs within ball pythons. Does that mean it should be bred (if possible) and developed as a line? No, that's an entirely different issue.

Personally, I think it's very cool to see the baby, but I would hate to see a line of these developed as it seems to me that ball python might be one of the worst species of snakes to attempt this with. If you want to produce a line of snakes with markedly reduced scalation (and I'm not saying anyone should), I think it should be a faster, more assertive snake lacking heat pits, so that the animal has a better chance of survival. It's one thing to reproduce naturally occurring variations in quantities that would not be sustainable in the wild, but it is a whole other question ethically (IMHO) to reproduce or attempt to reproduce animals that are not equipped with the basic equipment of their predecessors for form, function, and protection.

There is one other snake out there (I think it might be a colubrid) which occasionally throws mutations where the snake doesn't have any scales. I know I've seen pictures and articles on it before, but I remember what species it was. Found the link, it's a texas ratsnake. http://www.herper.com/strange/scalelesspics.html

You can label it as a morph, but it's not something I would ever buy or produce. It seems like it will be more delicate or prone to infections than other snakes. I really doubt that it would have 100% no issues of any kind really. I have always wondered what a shed would like from a snake with no scales since seeing the texas ratsnakes.. I'm wondering what exactly a shed from this guy would look like.

EDIT: It runs out the scaless texas rats have belly scutes..the derma ball pictured doesn't.

I have to admit it is pretty darn cute as a baby and may look cool as an adult IMO but as far as survival i think we just have to wait. a snake that would be bred to be a morph like this one would be specifically bred to be owned in captivity. Those who would choose to feed it live would not be making a logical choice due to it's state at the moment. So if it would be kept and bred in captivity then the only choice i see this morph eating is f/t or p/k. Secondly no i wouldn't like to see this ball python bred to gain money but if i had the chance to own one i would definitely take it. I know some might think the animal is suffering but at the moment there is no way of knowing so. i mean i understand, no heat pits, no scales, It's defense mechanisms have been robbed from it but some how it still manages to eat and is healthy(form what i understand). Really all i am saying is if it is to be considered a new morph i won't knock it. if it can stay healthy and be alive and content then yeah i think it should be bred. But i do have one question though, does anyone know if this was done on purpose or was it an accident lol. for a side note if this was done on purpose i just wanna bring up my favorite quote that i have lived by ever since 3rd grade. " IF what u have is WELL ENOUGH then leave WELL ENOUGH ALONE" lol couldn't resist myself :cool: :)

Brian

isnt there some sort of moral issue invloved here? im talking about if people do breed it, not for money, just intentionally produce these. taking away the scales, if im correct those are a form of defense for them. i mean, sure in captivity theres nothing to "hunt" them, but wont they get burnt easier, hurt easier and so on? with their heat pits missing, do they have a sense of sight or whats going on around them? wouldnt these missing features just make the balls life more stressful?

maybe im wrong, but hey, it makes sense to me. but if they can prove that theres nothing at all wrong with them, that they can live healthy lives, without any major issues then i guess more power to the people who want to breed them. as of right now, i think from what i know (and it aint much) that its kind of cruel. but who knows, maybe im wrong. just my .02 cents

I'm guessing no one complained when people bred man's best friend for certain traits such as scrunched noses that inhibits every breath they take (think: pug)...

Something about that just doesn't rub me right. If nature wants to manifest this anomoly here and there in other species, I just look at it as the way of the world. But to breed specifically for a defect that like...just doesn't sit well with me personally.

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Originally Posted by rex322

wouldnt these missing features just make the balls life more stressful?

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You bring up a valid point. It seems that most BP owners want to reduce stress as much as possible and given that these animals function primarily on instinct, one would think that the lack of scales and pits would probably be cause for a considerable amount of unnatural stress. Which might explain why those hairless dogs and cats always look so frightened. :P

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Which might explain why those hairless dogs and cats always look so frightened. :P

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nah, their just shaking cuz their cold

2 pics of the Derma Ball Python
Reptile Forum UK :: View topic - Scaleless Ball Python - The Derma Ball

arent they very vulnerable w/out scales?

For me, personally, this is a very moral issue. A snake without heat pits? Missing scales? Should any attempt be made to reproduce this? For me it's a resounding no! For me this isn't a morph but a defect and morally I wouldn't breed any animal...snake, dog, rat, whatever that shows a genetic defect that impedes the creatures natural abilities. Reference the pug example (and if you have a pug please excuse the following) but I've always felt that in dog breeding the worst of this human excess is seen in breeds damned near ruined by human interference. @@@@@s unable to free whelp, dogs lives shortened due to hip failure far too early in life, and that list just goes on and on. Or you can look at this like de-barking a dog or de-clawing a cat. Yes many owners do this but personally it's not something I could do. Dogs bark, cat's claw at things and snakes darn well need scales and heat pits.

Just because we can...should we?

~~Jo~~

It seems like feelings about the Derma ball were a little more divided on Kingsnake, but I think a lot of it was directed at the owner/breeder. From what I gather, the person that owns this isn't well respected in the ball python community and he is trying to find a morph to make a name for himself. He found this one in Africa along with at least one or two "regular" morphs. It does sound like he plans to breed this for the notoriety and money, but judging from the response on the boards it seems like this will only appeal to a niche (albeit controversial) market like venomoids.

unfourtunalty, the owner does plan on breeding it. For profit. the guy should just be happy if it stays alive. probly a result of inbreeding. if not, theres a bunch of inbreeding to come.

I am pretty divided on whether or not it should be bred. I would love to just come out and say "that's horrible, it should not be bred." But I would be a hypocrite, since I own hairless rats.
Personally, I would not breed that snake though. Just because, it has so many obvious defects. I think that as a society, we should ask ourselves why we like to breed animals (such as dogs, etc) who have such hideous deformities, and we treat them as exotic and rare.

why are u all so damn judgemental its just a different ball nonetheless if u dont have anything nice 2 say say nothing at all and as for the snakes eating habits shouldn't really be a problem because they feed by scent as well i just wish people would really think before they start spouting off at the its pure ignorance to talk about something u have no idea or real information about ps judge not lest ye be judged your self and as for opinions they are like sphincters everyone has one dont come down so hard on something just because its different we as a group are misunderstood by none herp lovers all the time just my 2 cents just tired of all the high and mighty attitudes some people have on this forum

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Originally Posted by gerbster1

why are u all so damn judgemental its just a different ball nonetheless if u dont have anything nice 2 say say nothing at all and as for the snakes eating habits shouldn't really be a problem because they feed by scent as well i just wish people would really think before they start spouting off at the its pure ignorance to talk about something u have no idea or real information about ps judge not lest ye be judged your self and as for opinions they are like sphincters everyone has one dont come down so hard on something just because its different we as a group are misunderstood by none herp lovers all the time just my 2 cents just tired of all the high and mighty attitudes some people have on this forum

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What the hell are you blabbering on about....this crap is almost 5 years old......

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Originally Posted by gerbster1

why are u all so damn judgemental its just a different ball nonetheless if u dont have anything nice 2 say say nothing at all and as for the snakes eating habits shouldn't really be a problem because they feed by scent as well i just wish people would really think before they start spouting off at the its pure ignorance to talk about something u have no idea or real information about ps judge not lest ye be judged your self and as for opinions they are like sphincters everyone has one dont come down so hard on something just because its different we as a group are misunderstood by none herp lovers all the time just my 2 cents just tired of all the high and mighty attitudes some people have on this forum

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That's the longest run-on sentence I've ever seen...impressive. :gj:

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Originally Posted by gerbster1

why are u all so damn judgemental its just a different ball nonetheless if u dont have anything nice 2 say say nothing at all and as for the snakes eating habits shouldn't really be a problem because they feed by scent as well i just wish people would really think before they start spouting off at the its pure ignorance to talk about something u have no idea or real information about ps judge not lest ye be judged your self and as for opinions they are like sphincters everyone has one dont come down so hard on something just because its different we as a group are misunderstood by none herp lovers all the time just my 2 cents just tired of all the high and mighty attitudes some people have on this forum

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If it bothered you so much, why did you bump a 5 year old thread back to the top? :confused: :confused:

You're going to judge the "high and mighty attitudes from 5 years ago? And you're going to call people who were sharing well thought out opinions judgemental? Who's the judgemental one in this thread?

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Originally Posted by gerbster1

why are u all so damn judgemental its just a different ball nonetheless if u dont have anything nice 2 say say nothing at all and as for the snakes eating habits shouldn't really be a problem because they feed by scent as well i just wish people would really think before they start spouting off at the its pure ignorance to talk about something u have no idea or real information about ps judge not lest ye be judged your self and as for opinions they are like sphincters everyone has one dont come down so hard on something just because its different we as a group are misunderstood by none herp lovers all the time just my 2 cents just tired of all the high and mighty attitudes some people have on this forum

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how about if your going to cry over what people have to say about it, don't post pictures in the first place.

and also yea 4 1/2 year old thread...thats just awesome. never seen one this old bumped

I think it looks cool I would like to get but not if the quality of life is lessened in any way

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Okay, being that I let the veritable hairless cat out of the bag, I wanted to find out what everyone thought of one of the latest discoveries in the Ball Python World. Here is a picture of the Derma Ball: Derma Ball Picture

Personally, I think it is rather pathetic looking and would never want to own one. I'm not sure what the lack of scales and heat pits would mean to a python and whether it would affect the quality of life or its survival, but on a purely aesthetic view, I like to see my snakes with all the right parts especially scales.

I don't see this as a morph, but rather a handicap although that is speculative at this point until more is known about the function of scales and heat pits are in captivity. However, if it is determined to be detrimental to a snake, but not necessarily fatal, how would you feel about breeders propagating this anomaly for financial gain? I'm sure there would always be a market for anything "different" in the Ball Python industry, and it probably wouldn't be much different than a two-headed snake, but personally how would you feel about the breeder?

Just thought I would throw this out there and find out what other people thought.

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I honestly think that you excagurate a bit but then again you're entitled to your own oppinion. :) How can you even call it pathetic? It's just a snake that happens to have certain genes that makes it look the way it does. It sure isn't unworthy of life and if people don't want it - then why keep looking at it? It doesn't make any sense to look at a thing that gets you in a bad mood. And also would this mean that Stephen Hawking is pathetic despite his great contributions to science?

If the breeder wants to create some more of these Derma Balls then just let the breeder mind his/hers own business. Who knows maybe he/she might be sincerely interested in creating some more of these ball pythons. Most people will probably not be interested in them just like the case with hybrids. I wouldn't buy them. But I will say this: if the Derma Ball works fine in captivity and dosen't suffer (which we can't tell) then I honestly don't see any problems of it being bred.

The snake might be inferior to a normal functioning ball python but I pressume it still can use its tongue to smell where the prey is. And despite the ''little below'' normal eyesight vision in terrestial snakes then it still can see a prey within some distance. And while we're at it then I also pressume it can sense the vibrations coming from the ground. So it might lack a good tool for hunting (''heat sense'') but it isn't all vounable compared to other animals that are bred without people lifting their fingers. I'm thinking about some defenseless lizards, snakes and amphibians.

It just the same thing with albinos and pieds. The colors would probably catch ones attention if the snake were spotted by a mere glimpse. I'm pretty sure that they're more easy to spot in Africa than a normal or darkly colored ball python. Based on this then I pressume that an albino, pied and some other color- and pattern mutations is more liable to be attacked by a predator. This sounds like a big disadvantage and yet we see several types of albinos, pieds and combos being bred every year without people lifting their fingers.

If we even go beyond reptiles then we could take a mexican hairless dog. They're being sold with pedigrees and some people seem to like them. And results from tests show that they're not more liable to infections and so forth.

My point if the snake works fine and doesn't seem to suffer then I don't see any problems if it being bred on a normal basis. But I do think that the breeder should make the buyers aware of any potential things that might influence the buyers oppinion.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

how about if your going to cry over what people have to say about it, don't post pictures in the first place.

and also yea 4 1/2 year old thread...thats just awesome. never seen one this old bumped

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Agree. :)

So since this thread came back up... I assume the derma ball never proved?

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Originally Posted by Kevin_Hornby

So since this thread came back up... I assume the derma ball never proved?

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I know that Eugene Bissett had a female (I can't recalled what he called his, not derma though - but same thing) and she died this past fall. He talked about her on Reptile Radio a few times, and he did say that her skin tore easily when feeding so he had to be careful of prey size, and had to feed her pre-killed.

I believe I remember the original owner of the male derma did breed him and produced a clutch (or more) of normal appearing babies and was at one point offering them for sale as het derma. My memory isn't what it used to be, so I may have my facts a bit off, but that's what I recall from a year or two ago.

im sorry i didnt know the thread was that old but it just burns my short hairs to see people get this worked up over what is supposedly right and wrong if people want something they will get it what do you expect we are only human enough said i would like to say thank you all 4 such wonderful entertainment and opinions:mad::mad::rolleye2:

Interesting opinions, Gerbster. Although I am the OP of this thread that is almost 5 years old :O, I still have the same opinion of the snake.

I'm not going to get into this subject too much, but I do wonder what some of the people that oppose my views feel about breeders that take advantage of other detrimental genetic anomalies such as the twisty cat?

Oh, and one more thing...

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ps would u love your children any less if they looked different or weren't as healthy as so called normal child

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That has absolutely nothing to do with this subject. There's a huge difference between taking care of something that you had no control over and playing an active role in propagating an abnormality. If I had a child that was afflicted with say...dwarfism, I would love him/her as I would any of my children, but I wouldn't try to produce more children like them so I could profit from their disability.

I have to agree with one of the previous posts though. If you are against this form of breeding, you also have to be against breeding such dogs as Pugs. I mean you can't tell me going around not being able to breathe from your nose is increasing its quality of life...

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Originally Posted by gerbster1

why are u all so damn judgemental its just a different ball nonetheless if u dont have anything nice 2 say say nothing at all and as for the snakes eating habits shouldn't really be a problem because they feed by scent as well i just wish people would really think before they start spouting off at the its pure ignorance to talk about something u have no idea or real information about ps judge not lest ye be judged your self and as for opinions they are like sphincters everyone has one dont come down so hard on something just because its different we as a group are misunderstood by none herp lovers all the time just my 2 cents just tired of all the high and mighty attitudes some people have on this forum

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dand dude u were right alot of ppl crying over ur post HA