Not good.... R.I. isn't clearing up on it's own

So Trigger's had the sniffles for a while now & hasn't eaten for a few weeks... mouth is kinda red & he's got some excess mucus goin on. RARELY comes out of his hide & yawns alot. I tried to feed him tonight & after a long time of "mousie dancing" and having him think about it he actually grabbed it, wrapped around it, found the head and started eatin, but he gave up at the shoulders. :(

i've been keeping the temps up. around 82-85 cool side, 95-97 warm side. last time he had a cough it was really bad. upping the temps did the trick & he got over it on his own, but this one actually doesn' have him caughing nearly as bad, but he's not shaking it.

i'm callin the vet in the morning to make an appointment ASAP and hopfully they'll have an opening Friday morning cuz that's about the soonest time i can get it done. I'm sure some antibiotics will do the trick.

i'll keep you guys posted.

Best wishes, bro - what are keeping the humidity at?

humidity WAS up for a recent shed, but now it's down around 50%. i figured if it was a little less humid it might help dry up the mucus in his lungs

URI's never just "go away" on their own. The symptoms may subside, but without anti-biotics the infection will remain.

That "crank up the heat and hope it goes away" advice is like trying to treat a human disease with chicken bones and tulips!

Getting your snake to a qualified vet for anti-biotics is the ONLY way to cure the infection.

-adam

aight, thanks adam.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

URI's never just "go away" on their own. The symptoms may subside, but without anti-biotics the infection will remain.

That "crank up the heat and hope it goes away" advice is like trying to treat a human disease with chicken bones and tulips!

Getting your snake to a qualified vet for anti-biotics is the ONLY way to cure the infection.

-adam

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Not to start a big to-do (I don't have time for those right now), but it sounds as if you are saying that ball pythons are entirely lacking in immune systems and/or never encounter respiratory infections in the wild and therefore have not adapted to cope with them. I'll admit that I am not a biologist or zoologist, but that does seem highly unlikely to me. That doesn't mean that a captive snake with an RI should not be taken to the vet, but anti-biotics as the ONLY way for the RI to be completely shed(presumably, short of death)? That jars with my (albeit limited) understanding of immunology.

I think in the wild they adapt to a whole lot more than when captive.
I would think it was less unlikely for a bp to get an R/I in the wild as opposed to being confined in a cage with limited air movement and exchange.

I would also think they could indeed shake it quicker in the wild where they can move about and encounter different air, temps etc than being in a cage and catching a R/I and the germ staying confined in the area.
Sure dropping the humidity and raising the temps may help but unless you air out and disinfect the cage and everything in it I don't see how it could go away.
Besides I really don't think we know enough about them and the wild to know if when sick in the wild they may know of different things to do or eat etc where being captive they are limited to what we give them.

Then again a lot of them when getting sick in the wild may just die and then again maybe they don't get as sick as often as when being captive.

Just my 2cents and logical thinking :)

Good point Marla.

The ball pythons in captivity have not been exposed to the same situations and conditions that a wild ball python would experience. This might actually cause a weaker immune system. I would figure ball python immune systems would be similar to human immune systems. Kinda like the kid that stayed inside all of the time and ended up becoming sickly adult because they were never exposed to certain things. Then you had kids like me that ate dirt and was always getting into stuff and rarely get sick as an adult. The more a person is exposed to generally the stronger the immune system. Maybe it is the same with ball pythons. That is just speculation.....but I think it might be a good reason for the needed medical assistance.

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Originally Posted by Marla

Not to start a big to-do (I don't have time for those right now),

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Hmmm .... I'm not sure what this means, but if you're going to quote one of my posts and question it, then I'm going to infer that you'd like me to respond.

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Originally Posted by Marla

but it sounds as if you are saying that ball pythons are entirely lacking in immune systems and/or never encounter respiratory infections in the wild and therefore have not adapted to cope with them.

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Cute, but your assumptions are incorrect. I said nothing even remotely close.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marla

I'll admit that I am not a biologist or zoologist, but that does seem highly unlikely to me. That doesn't mean that a captive snake with an RI should not be taken to the vet, but anti-biotics as the ONLY way for the RI to be completely shed(presumably, short of death)? That jars with my (albeit limited) understanding of immunology.

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A respiratory infection is just that, an infection. Anti-biotics are hands down the most effective way to cure any infection. I don’t think there is a veterinarian in the world that would disagree.

Animals in captivity generally have weaker immune systems than their wild counter parts. There is a natural stress involved with being a "captive" and that stress impacts the immune system. Therefore you cannot compare the way the immune system of a wild animal works compared to a captive. That coupled with the fact that the conditions in captivity that allow ball pythons to get respiratory infections are avoidable in natural habitats resulting in respiratory infections in captive animals that are many times more severe than infections the animals see in the wild.

If you had a better understanding of ball python physiology and diseases you'd certainly know that in captive ball pythons respiratory infections are well established and already very dangerous by the time the average keeper notices the first external symptoms (clicking, popping, wheezing). An experienced keeper that knows how to identify the early symptoms of a URI might very well be able to cure it by bolstering the immune system through an increase in ambient temperatures, but as you've reminded me in the past Marla, most of the readers of this site are beginners and you've asked that the advice I give be given with that in mind. So that's exactly what I did.

I hope this helps you to understand a little better. :D

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Hmmm .... I'm not sure what this means, but if you're going to quote one of my posts and question it, then I'm going to infer that you'd like me to respond.

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Yes, I wanted you to respond, just wanted to give you a heads-up that if you wanted to do one of our longer discussions/explorations, I'm a little short on time for that right now.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

A respiratory infection is just that, an infection. Anti-biotics are hands down the most effective way to cure any infection. I don’t think there is a veterinarian in the world that would disagree.

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There are certainly MDs and MD/PhDs that would disagree with that assertion, and I can't imagine that all DVMs would have avoided reading the studies to the contrary. Some infections are not susceptible to antibiotics, some are better treated with other approaches, and some it is better to let the immune system fight and build immunity to.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Animals in captivity generally have weaker immune systems than their wild counter parts. There is a natural stress involved with being a "captive" and that stress impacts the immune system.

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Agreed, that is well-established, just as humans with high stress levels often have more difficulty fighting off viruses and bacteria that come around. But just as a human with a compromised immune system (say, from lupus or malnutrition or stress) might be able to fight off a cold and yet benefit from medical supervision of the process, so might an animal with a compromised immune system or less than ideal conditions.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Therefore you cannot compare the way the immune system of a wild animal works compared to a captive.

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So if comparing a captive ball python's immune system to a wild ball python's immune system is not an option, to what would you compare it? I can't think of a more natural comparison to make, which is not to say equation, just comparison.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

That coupled with the fact that the conditions in captivity that allow ball pythons to get respiratory infections are avoidable in natural habitats resulting in respiratory infections in captive animals that are many times more severe than infections the animals see in the wild.

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No one said that the RI wouldn't be a challenge. It might be a reasonable comparison to say a wild bp with an RI could be compared to a human with a bad cold, whereas a captive bp with an RI could be compared with a child with mononucleosis. It's more difficult to shake, takes considerably longer to recover from, may open the door to opportunistic infections of other types, may be fatal, may have long-lasting effects on metabolism, energy, immunity, and production of hormones and other bodily chemicals, but can be fought and overcome with proper attention and care by most of those who encounter it nonetheless.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

If you had a better understanding of ball python physiology and diseases you'd certainly know that in captive ball pythons respiratory infections are well established and already very dangerous by the time the average keeper notices the first external symptoms (clicking, popping, wheezing).

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Actually I was well aware of that fact, but thanks for the reminder. It's always good to bear in mind that there's more going on than what is casually observable. When I pointed out to Alan Bosch that one of his baby bp's had an RI at a show and he hadn't noticed it yet, does that mean that I should consider him an inexperienced keeper?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

An experienced keeper that knows how to identify the early symptoms of a URI might very well be able to cure it by bolstering the immune system through an increase in ambient temperatures, but as you've reminded me in the past Marla, most of the readers of this site are beginners and you've asked that the advice I give be given with that in mind. So that's exactly what I did.

I hope this helps you to understand a little better. :D

-adam

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I do appreciate your bearing in mind the experience level of most of this site's readers. You may have noticed that I have never advocated avoiding a vet trip for an RI and have often enthusiastically encouraged one and informed visitors that RIs are too often fatal in captive bp's. You can double-check me by searching if you like. But I disagree that antibiotics are the answer to every infection or that it is not possible for any captive bp to completely rid itself of an RI given enough time and care.

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Originally Posted by Marla

But I disagree that antibiotics are the answer to every infection or that it is not possible for any captive bp to completely rid itself of an RI given enough time and care.

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Well then I defer to your vast experience working with these animals. Sounds like you've got it all covered.

-adam

Easy kids.

Disagreement is quite fine and is in fact inevitable.

But lets ALL play nice :P

Venomously sarcastic dismissals seem to be a growing trend I'd like to discourage

Well, you certainly are in the lead for the "most sarcastic post" contest, I see. I hope you win.

Is it so hard for you to believe that someone other than yourself might have some knowledge about physiology and immunology? I grew up surrounded by research doctors, immunologists, epidemiologists, and professors, and have training in medicine myself. I helped edit medical journal articles when I was in high school, for crying out loud. I am not unfamiliar with the concepts involved in general immunology, nor some of the specifics. I will readily grant you that there are many ball python keepers with more experience than I with that specific animal, but that does not mean that I am completely ignorant on the subject.

I for one, am quite the rookie when it comes to herps, and like many others on here look to you veterans for your vast amount of knowlege. So much of what I know has come from you guys.

Aren't we all on here to share our knowlege and express our thoughts opinions and concerns on certain issues, in a constructive manner? Sometimes there is no one right answer, sometimes there is, sometimes it's a judgement call... but in the end, it all boils down to what's best for our herps.

Group hug? :tears:

Isshinharu FOR THE WIN!

Seriously - NO ONE including mods and admins needs to be so contentious or defensive in their posts.

No one here intends to lead folks into bad husbandry practices.

Most folks seem to recognize that there is more than a single approach or solution - whether it be substrate, type or state of prey, type of housing (I tell you I used to get constantly PUMMELED for keeping in glass - as it was just BS - worked just fine until the number of herps went through the roof and then it became a question of maintenance), etc etc.

Cmon, Issh lets go mix some 'ritas.

Just my little newbie opinion here but please folks I do understand strong opinions and sometimes typing before thinking and all that, but when these threads go from sharing information to obviously sarcastic, tense posts you make new owners like me start avoiding asking questions for fear that the thread will end up like this (and it's happening more frequently lately for some odd reason).

Please please remember that your experience (varied as it may be) is what helps so many newcomers like my family to have wonderful experiences, helps keep our snakes healthier than they might otherwise be and may well be one of the most important resources we have as we learn to be good, responsible snake keepers.

For the more experienced of you, it's a wonderful place to pass on knowledge, to share your achievements in breeding, your disappointments, the gains or losses of this hobby/business or just to relax and talk about these fascinating creatures.

In the end, isn't that what this forum is all about?


~~Joanna~~

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Originally Posted by Smulkin

Isshinharu FOR THE WIN!

Seriously - NO ONE including mods and admins needs to be so contentious or defensive in their posts.

No one here intends to lead folks into bad husbandry practices.

Most folks seem to recognize that there is more than a single approach or solution - whether it be substrate, type or state of prey, type of housing (I tell you I used to get constantly PUMMELED for keeping in glass - as it was just BS - worked just fine until the number of herps went through the roof and then it became a question of maintenance), etc etc.

Cmon, Issh lets go mix some 'ritas.

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i agree with you as for there being more than one approach to things. as for the getting pummeled for keeping in glass i dont understand that one i keep both of mine in glass and they do just fine. everyone says they want opinions but when some of the people give their opinions they are pummeled just because it is not what the other wanted to hear. if you dont want to hear dont ask and if you do then dont pummel the people that do tell you their opinions on the subject. everyone is different and no one person is 100% right and does no wrong. i agree with frak... (i forget the rest of the name) when she says it is scaring people to not even want to post and ask a question and that is what the forum is all about ... sharing and recieving new information to take better proper care of herps. i dunno maybe you should add a debate forum just for these occasions ;) jk. im new to snakes and i know it but i know that i do take advice from the people here...in a way...and watch the way my snakes behave and them ballance it out. what one person says about a snake may not be right for my snakes (because they are individuals) but i try to reavaluate the situation from the advice given to see if it will work with my snakes. (and just for the record i know that i can not spell...that was my worst subject in school :) ) but to those who do give insightful and respectful advice i really do thank you for that.

Bullseye.

Thank you very much for that eloquent statement, Joanna.

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Originally Posted by Egyptian_Sphynx

i dunno maybe you should add a debate forum just for these occasions ;) jk.

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Whew, could you imagine? lol There sure would be a lot of :mad: :devil: :twisted: :evileye: :frustrate :tears: :fork: :bonk: emoticons used in there. :P

I for one think debates are best left to PM's. I'm an advocate of posting thoughts and opinions publicly and then letting the individual herp owner make the final decision on what is best. There's no sense in dissension.

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Originally Posted by Isshinharu

Whew, could you imagine? lol There sure would be a lot of :mad: :devil: :twisted: :evileye: :frustrate :tears: :fork: :bonk: emoticons used in there. :P
.

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Dang Issh, you got the emoticons down! :)

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Originally Posted by Marla

I grew up surrounded by research doctors, immunologists, epidemiologists, and professors, and have training in medicine myself. I helped edit medical journal articles when I was in high school, for crying out loud. I am not unfamiliar with the concepts involved in general immunology, nor some of the specifics. I will readily grant you that there are many ball python keepers with more experience than I with that specific animal, but that does not mean that I am completely ignorant on the subject.

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To compare the way the immune systems of warm blooded animals with their own method for internal temperature regulation fight off infection to the way that the immune systems of cold blooded animals fight infections that they have not evolved to be able to deal with in the first place is just not reasonable.

If you say it's so than I'm sure you are plenty familiar with general immunology in humans, but it's a entirely different ball game to suggest that those concepts apply in the same way to cold blooded animals.

Your posts suggest a method of treatment for respiratory infections in ball pythons that fly in the face of everything that world renowned veterinarians (Klingenberg, Jacobson, and Stahl off the top of my head), whom specialize in the care and treatment of reptiles, advocate.

I have been working with these animals for a very long time ... after my family, they are my life ... I would bet good money that I have probably treated greater numbers of ball pythons with URI than most people have actually seen healthy specimens in their lives. Over the years I have used Amikacin, Enroflaxin, Ciproflaxin, Fortaz, as well as methods involving increasing heat and humidity to treat URI’s in ball pythons of all sizes and ages and can say quite authoritatively that without anti-biotics, it is most likely that even if the URI symptoms go away, sooner or later a ball python will relapse. Anti-biotics are the ONLY way to completely rid a ball python of a respiratory infection that has progressed to the point of “mouth is kinda red & he's got some excess mucus goin on.” as the original poster described.

Marla, if you or anyone else has any kind of direct evidence to the contrary, I’m certainly willing to sit down with all of my records and veterinary reports/receipts and compare notes. Until then to leave me negative feedback calling my opinions (based on experience) about the proper way to treat a ball python with the symptoms described in the original post “inaccurate” is just flat out wrong.

I tried to address this in a PM to Marla instead of dragging this thread where Pete was only trying to get help for his snake into this muck to no avail. Shortly after I was sent an anonymous email telling me that I better “watch it” or “I’ll be banned”.

If my last response was taken as sarcastic then so be it. My intention was only to acknowledge that in the end, Marla has the power around here and I’m well aware that no matter how passionate I feel about my opinions based on my 25 years of experience with this species, it does not matter.

I really wish this could have been taken off line through PM’s, but for whatever reason I got no response.

-adam

Soo.... does this mean no group hug? :tears:


Sorry... someone's gotta try to lighten the mood a bit. :P

Oh, and :please: don't ban him... he's been one of the most valuable assets to my miniscule amount of herp knowlege that I have thus far. I for one (and I'm sure many other people around here) can say that the contributions he makes to this message board far outweigh this disagreement... just my humble opinion. :hmm:

Please PM me more details on the anonymous email with the warning including full header information if you have it as I'd like to look into that.

There was never a need for this thread to become so volatile.

There is room aplenty for us all here - and no "company line" to tow.

The Admin Council exists primarily to avoid a single person having singular control - to avoid such charges of abuse of "power" as you have stated. If people disagree it does not necessrily imply a battle of dominance - nor should they seek to make it so.

This is teetering on the brink of lockage.

Issh

I SERIOUSLY doubt the threat to ban was made by any of the mods or admins - had it been it would not have been anonymous. That is why I'd like the header information so that I might find out who sent such an unwarranted email.

Adam is duly credited with his contributions to the site.


All that being said

CHILL OUT IT IS FRIDAYS EVE!

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Originally Posted by Smulkin

Issh

I SERIOUSLY doubt the threat to ban was made by any of the mods or admins - had it been it would not have been anonymous. That is why I'd like the header information so that I might find out who sent such an unwarranted email.

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Hmm... Good point. Happy hunting! :P

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Originally Posted by Smulkin

All that being said

CHILL OUT IT IS FRIDAYS EVE!

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True dat! Saturday I'll be 'house' cleaning. It's about time the girls tanks get a renovation. (Yes, tanks... I use glass enclosures... I'm with ya on that one Smulkin) ;)

Hehehe. Smynx still keeps her male fuscus in one - all the rest have been turned into rat housing. Cleaning so many of them just got to be a chore - and those larger tanks are heavy. At this point our son has 2 tanks each housing a plated lizard, a smaller one for his tegu, and I THINK Smynx has a Durango Mtn Kingsnake in glass as well. It's not as easy to maintain as plastic - but for those herps you just CAN'T stop staring at it's quite understandable.

Yeah I've got my beardie in a 40 breeder (that sucker is HEAVY, especially when it's full of substrate and you have to carry it outside to clean it), and my baby balls (about 70 grams a piece) in their own 10 gal tanks. I'm not sure what I'll use when they get bigger. Seeing as how they've been spending most of their time in their hides... the aesthetics of glass is becoming a moot point. Oh well.

I guess that's enough thread hi-jacking for me. :oops:

In this case a quite welcome thread hijacking.

We'll put this thread to bed now.


Note to all users - do NOT take it into your own hands to extend any sorts of warnings or threats to other members - this is wholly unacceptable. If ever you feel that urge - just report the post (little ! warning symbol on the left there) or shoot me a PM! When Sgt Banhammer comes out to play he doesnt do it anonymously. No one is being banned - and i think you could count on a single hand the number of ppl who HAVE been banned in the history of this site . . .

. . . and with the remaining fingers you'd still be able to work the chopsticks for your sushi.

AND most of those folks eventually returned :P


(EDIT and postscript - ADMINS AND MODS will NOT send you anonymous messages. After several inquiries and checking of resources it is evident that such was not the case in this instance)