Assist feeding didnt work, snake thin

I know this forum is flooded with feeding problems, but I'm looking to see what I'm missing with my problem banana hatchling. I'm quite worried about her. I have other BPs and they are awesome feeders.

Her set-up: 10 gallon aquarium with all sides blacked out with dark construction paper except for top 4 inches on the front. Top 3/4 covered with damp towel to maintain humidity at about 60% (with lots of variation, cant wait until her pvc setup arrives). One side heated to 86* using underbelly heat and thermostat. Cozy hides on both sides, water bowl in middle. Quiet room, normal daylight cycle.

What I've tried:
First 5 days after arrived shipped- left her alone to acclimate
Day 6: attempted F/T hopper mouse, heated a few minutes under heat lamp
Day 8: shed (perfect)
Day 12: attempted F/T hopper mouse, heated a few minutes under heat lamp
Day 17: attempted live small hopper mouse for 15 minutes, she acted terrified
Day 22: attempted F/T pinky rat, heated a few minutes under heat lamp
Day 28 (today): attempted assist feeds of F/T fuzzy mouse. She spat it out the first try. The 2nd try she tried very hard to spit it out and it was lodged on her bottom teeth. I had to lift and push the mouse in a little and she spat it out the rest of the way. Worried that her lower jaw may have been minorly injured, but I didn't see anything. (assist feed description- held gently on either side of her mouth while resting most of her body on towel, mouse pushed 3/4 of way into mouth, gently set down and then I didn't move)

She's quite thin. The only other thing I can think of is to move her to a tub of some kind, which I'll go buy tomorrow. I may be trying to often (every 5 days). Any other ideas or suggestions?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by anthroterra

I know this forum is flooded with feeding problems, but I'm looking to see what I'm missing with my problem banana hatchling. I'm quite worried about her. I have other BPs and they are awesome feeders.

Her set-up: 10 gallon aquarium with all sides blacked out with dark construction paper except for top 4 inches on the front. Top 3/4 covered with damp towel to maintain humidity at about 60% (with lots of variation, cant wait until her pvc setup arrives). One side heated to 86* using underbelly heat and thermostat. Cozy hides on both sides, water bowl in middle. Quiet room, normal daylight cycle.

What I've tried:
First 5 days after arrived shipped- left her alone to acclimate
Day 6: attempted F/T hopper mouse, heated a few minutes under heat lamp
Day 8: shed (perfect)
Day 12: attempted F/T hopper mouse, heated a few minutes under heat lamp
Day 17: attempted live small hopper mouse for 15 minutes, she acted terrified
Day 22: attempted F/T pinky rat, heated a few minutes under heat lamp
Day 28 (today): attempted assist feeds of F/T fuzzy mouse. She spat it out the first try. The 2nd try she tried very hard to spit it out and it was lodged on her bottom teeth. I had to lift and push the mouse in a little and she spat it out the rest of the way. Worried that her lower jaw may have been minorly injured, but I didn't see anything. (assist feed description- held gently on either side of her mouth while resting most of her body on towel, mouse pushed 3/4 of way into mouth, gently set down and then I didn't move)

She's quite thin. The only other thing I can think of is to move her to a tub of some kind, which I'll go buy tomorrow. I may be trying to often (every 5 days). Any other ideas or suggestions?

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Try feeding live.

Move her to a shoe box size tub with very small hides. If she has eaten on her own before assist feed will not work. Leave her alone in the new tub dark and quiet for a week then put in a live rat pup with eyes closed very quick and remove the water bowl as you do it. Leave it in there over night. Check in the morning to see if it is gone, remove it if not eaten. Try again in a week without bothering her at all in between.

i just did this this past weekend with mine, does not make me an expert however, this was my process.


i bought a rat pup had no fur at all on it. he was not having it at all, same thing he would just spit it out. so i got a mouse pinky, it was only 1 gram, i put that in his mouth and gently pushed, held it for a minute or so and then bam, he started taking it down. i placed him back in the tub and let him be for a little while, me knowing that 1 gram is not enough food for him, i tried again with the 5 gram rat pup, it was the same one that i tried the first time, i ran some warm water over it and then dried it off, then the same process open mouth and gently push. once i felt it was in far enough i waited for a min or so and then he took that down too! i am hoping that i wont have to do it anymore, i hope that next week when i try again that they will take it on there own.

i wish you luck, there are videos on line, i am pretty sure i watched all of them. just watch some to build your confidence and give it a go.

I did try live, as stated in my post.

Kibbleswhites- Thank you. I'll try that, but with an eyes-closed mouse (no live rats around here, even the live mouse is an hour and a half drive to get). I don't think she's ever fed on her own before.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by anthroterra

I know this forum is flooded with feeding problems, but I'm looking to see what I'm missing with my problem banana hatchling. I'm quite worried about her. I have other BPs and they are awesome feeders.

Her set-up: 10 gallon aquarium with all sides blacked out with dark construction paper except for top 4 inches on the front. Top 3/4 covered with damp towel to maintain humidity at about 60% (with lots of variation, cant wait until her pvc setup arrives). One side heated to 86* using underbelly heat and thermostat. Cozy hides on both sides, water bowl in middle. Quiet room, normal daylight cycle.

What I've tried:
First 5 days after arrived shipped- left her alone to acclimate
Day 6: attempted F/T hopper mouse, heated a few minutes under heat lamp
Day 8: shed (perfect)
Day 12: attempted F/T hopper mouse, heated a few minutes under heat lamp
Day 17: attempted live small hopper mouse for 15 minutes, she acted terrified
Day 22: attempted F/T pinky rat, heated a few minutes under heat lamp
Day 28 (today): attempted assist feeds of F/T fuzzy mouse. She spat it out the first try. The 2nd try she tried very hard to spit it out and it was lodged on her bottom teeth. I had to lift and push the mouse in a little and she spat it out the rest of the way. Worried that her lower jaw may have been minorly injured, but I didn't see anything. (assist feed description- held gently on either side of her mouth while resting most of her body on towel, mouse pushed 3/4 of way into mouth, gently set down and then I didn't move)

She's quite thin. The only other thing I can think of is to move her to a tub of some kind, which I'll go buy tomorrow. I may be trying to often (every 5 days). Any other ideas or suggestions?

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It's not about assist feeding it's about providing optimum environment which you do not.

You assist when the animal never ate and refuse to take his very first meal (hopefully you did not buy an un- started hatchling) or when there is an health issue and this is the very last resort.

If the animal ate before it will again if you fix your husbandry do this to a T and do not offer that often switching prey type each time you are making it worse http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=237595

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AM1GROSS- ty.

Deborah- Uh... thanks for the degrading reply. I was asking how to improve the husbandry, and my setup and such is similar to that described in your linked post and others like it "Whether you dislike tubs or have the perfect 10 gallons setup ready to go it does not matter what matter it to provide the optimum setup which means cramped." 86*/76* monitored with thermostat, 60% humidity, aspen, hides (exo-terra mediums 6.3 x 9.4 x 2.6 at peak), let her acclimate (ok, a day shy of suggestion). Check. Offered every 5-6 days, but admit it should probably be 7 or more at first. This is not my first young snake, just the first I've had issues with. My first feed was F/T rather than live because live is unavailable here. I tried the rat once and live once because I don't know what she was started on. With her body so thin, this is last resort. I bought from a reputable breeder who is hard to get info from (Bob Clark). He didn't provide hatch date or much else, unlike everyone else I have ever dealt with. I thought I would be getting a started snake, but the shed so soon after getting her and very small size makes me unsure. Waiting on a reply from him.

I'm buying a small tub with suggested hides tomorrow and leaving her alone again for a week once I set her up in it, then trying close-eyed live mouse. She's certainly worth making the long drive again. If I can get her feeding on live then I'll have the issue of getting her switched later (driving three hours every weekend is a bit much and I won't be breeding mice), but one problem at a time! I just hope she lasts. Thanks for the suggestions, I'll update at next feed.

What is her current weight? Mine that i bought this weekend, one was 50 grams ( female vanilla) and the the other was 57 grams (male fire). Mine were born on July 6th and July 7th. They have already had there 1st shed while at the breeders, they just was not eating. Breeder was not comfortable with the assisting of feeding. which i was comfortable with trying. And it was a success.

Like deb said, with the proper husbandry all will be well. i have seen it myself, it really does make a difference. Now that my new babies got something in there belly and i got there new apts set up, they will be eating next week. i will keep you posted!

If you can get a pinky, that would probably be best, mine was just 1 gram, pretty small in size and was really easy to do once you get the right grip on the noodle. I will say that i hope I never have to do it again, but if i say that i am in the wrong hobby!

Good luck and keep us posted!

Mike

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Originally Posted by anthroterra

Uh... thanks for the degrading reply.

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What?? You ask a question but don't like being told whats wrong?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by anthroterra

(Bob Clark)

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You probably wont get a response for a while as his wife just lost her fight with cancer yesterday morning.

So, what was this animal eating before you purchased it? Did you ask when you purchased it?

BTW a mouse pup with the eyes closed is way too small.

How old is this snake? I'm only assuming it is a young snake, under 100g. If that is the case,

I would get a 6qt tub from Walmart/Target/etc. If you have belly heat, put it under the tub so that the warm side will be 91F. (you will have to put some holes in the tub for air flow). Place two small hides in there if possible and a small water bowl.

Around 8pm, Get a frozen hopper mouse. Put it in a Ziploc baggie and submerge the baggie in warm water until the mouse is no longer frozen. Once it feels "squishy", put the baggie into a bowl of the hottest tap water you can get from the sink. let it sit for about 5 minutes. Now take the mouse out of the baggie and put it in the tub with the snake and leave it over night.

If this doesn't work, wait and try it again in two or three days. Just keep trying this until the snake eats.


I would not try to handle the snake at all until it eats at least two meals (on it's own). Moving to a smaller tub and raising the temperature will likely help you a great deal. that little snake just wants to feel warm and safe.

Very sorry to hear about Bob's wife! Sad news :(

Please note that I'm following her advice. My original set up was actually based on her other posts, so I was just caught off-guard by the tone. I guess I've been a social worker too long.

I'm aware that a mouse pup is too small. I'm considering her safety if I leave it in with her longer than the typical 15 minutes. What if I offer her appropriate size for 15 minutes, then leave the pup in for a few hours or even overnight if she refuses again? Thoughts?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by anthroterra

AM1GROSS- ty.

Deborah- Uh... thanks for the degrading reply. I was asking how to improve the husbandry, and my setup and such is similar to that described in your linked post and others like it "[COLOR=#333333]Whether you dislike tubs or have the perfect 10 gallons setup ready to go it does not matter what matter it to provide the optimum setup which means cramped."

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Degrading? More like reading something that's not here and being too sensitive?

Sure I could have tell you to keep doing what you were doing instead, it's working great :rolleyes:

It's not about how I feel (or even keep my animals) it's not about how YOU feel it's about what is PROVEN TO WORK method, you can take it or leave it, YOUR choice.

This little write up has help many overcome the issue you are experiencing including people that were even tube feeding their animal. Assist feeding (failed one at that) and a 57 grams animal failing to eat is not a good thing and you better find what works and do it fast.

OMG no wonder I haven't gotten a reply. What a terrible thing for Bob to go through.

I hope your girl pulls through. My baby female went 3 months without eating, I kept making adjustments until I discovered that she doesn't seem to like her tub as hot as my male does and she just needed to be left alone. She's still pretty picky but now I can get her to eat a decent meal 2/3 times a month.

Also the difference between tubs and tanks can be great. The setup has to be more than just cramped. If your tank had fluctuating temps and humidity that could be causing her to be uncomfortable and not eat.

And I don't think anyone is trying to be harsh or degrading. Everyone here just really loves these animals and wants them to be healthy. Good luck! I hope to add a banana to my little snake family one day soon.

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Originally Posted by anthroterra

[/COLOR]86*/76*

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This might be your problem - I always aim for 92f inside the hot hide and 82f inside the cool end hide. I'd try raising those temps a little and see if it makes any difference.

Also with F/T defrosting it slowly near their enclosure seems to let mine know to expect food and makes a big difference. Hope this helps.


dr del

I indeed took Deborah's tone wrong at first and felt like what I was being told was that I was doing *everything* wrong, which was not what she said. I shouldn't read posts so late at night lol.

I've seen posts on choosing proper prey size and frozen vs live, but not much on how often to offer after the first week, when to try switching type if they refuse for long periods, etc. Is there one out there I'm not finding? 15 minutes seems to be the recommended time limit for live prey and overnight for F/T. The setup is being corrected, but I'm still unsure about these concerns.

I have one young snake here who simply will not strike unless the prey item has had its head dipped in boiling water and is practically steaming still Hun. May be worth hearing it a tad more xx


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Chiquita refused live again after 1 week in the new setup, but I'm happy to report that she ate a fuzzy rat tonight after running away from it for a half hour. Woohoo! Thanks for your suggestions, all :)

i agree with the others, the enviornment must be spot on, and the more you fuss them them the less they will have a positive food response. I have a girl that is very humidity sensative, and if it drops below 50% she won't eat, so i am ultra careful with her temps, humidity. She also won't eat ft. or any color rat other then white. She is just an ultra picky eater, but she is young, and very sweet, and i really love her, so i cater to her. Your little noodle might be just picky. Get those temps, and humidity spot on, then if its used to live feed live, even though a little small, a fuzzy rat every 5 days. good luck.