How many snakes in a cage?

Some people say one to one cage and some people have multiple snakes in a cage. What do you guys do? i know some people who have no problems at all with keeping multiple balls in one enclosure even 2 males. So what do you guys do and why??

One snake...One enclosure. These are not social creatures. The only time I ever want to see two snakes in one enclosure is when they are breeding.

i agree with Daniel.

I keep a male and female adult boas in same encloser
As long as you know what your doing in terms of feeding and quarentine.
Boas can be kept together in the same encloser

Having said that, i wouldnt house a Bp wit a Boa, and im not sure about other species of snake, but as for BCI, they are fine to house male and female all year.

Chris

If one of the boas is sick and has loose fecal how do you know which one did it?

One snake - one cage.

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Originally Posted by BALLPYTHON

Some people say one to one cage and some people have multiple snakes in a cage. What do you guys do? i know some people who have no problems at all with keeping multiple balls in one enclosure even 2 males. So what do you guys do and why??

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1 per cage .... ball pythons can eat each other if they become stressed. It's documented. There's also a case of a boa eating a ball python it was housed with. I would think that fact would be enough.

There is no benefit to keeping multiples in the same cage and a long list of reasons why you shouldn't, so why would anyone do that?

-adam

well some people keep multiple snakes together and have no problems. I personally keep one snake to one enclosure for all these reasons but i want to hear form people who keep more than one ball in one enclosure.
C'mon guys speak up dont be afraid, i know your out there.

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Originally Posted by BALLPYTHON

well some people keep multiple snakes together and have no problems.

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You mean no apparent problems, or no problems that they will tell you about.

I can buy a dog and keep it in a closet in my house with no lights, feed it, provide it with water, take it to the vet regularly, walk it a couple of times a day and say that the dog has "no problems", but that doesn't make what I'm doing right.

I can buy a horse and keep it in my basement .... feed it, provide it with water, make sure it gets regular veterinary care, maybe take it out to ride a couple of times a month and say that it has "no problems" but that wouldn't be right either.

Just because someone claims to have "no problems" with the care they provide does not mean that the care they are providing is in the animals best interest.

You have to ask yourself, if a ball python gets no possible benefit from being housed together, every "expert" in the hobby/field of ball python husbandry recommends housing ball python individually, and there are documented potentially hazardous side effects to housing ball pythons with other animals, why would anyone even consider doing otherwise?

-adam

Very well said adam, great point.

Ball pythons are known to be one of the more picky types of snakes. Many things can stress them and ultimatly leads to going off feed or one of the more drastic effects like adam says where they could eat eachother. when you have 2 snakes in a cage EVERYTHING becomes a competition, who gets what hide, who gets to be on the warm side, who gets the food ect. It doesn't make any sense 2 house 2 snakes together. I think its just an excuse so people can be lazy and not spend the money on the extra enclosure. hehe

I keep all of my Bps, and my boa, one to a cage. I can see no benefit from keeping them housed together, unless of course it's breeding season and you have two healthy, adult animals you're attempting to breed together.
Keeping them together longterm, can only lead to more stress on the snakes. Say they both want to be in the same hidespot (to thermoregulate.) They would both have to squeeze in there. Make a hidedspot big enough for both, and one would feel insecure in there because it would be too big.

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

Make a hidedspot big enough for both, and one would feel insecure in there because it would be too big.

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It's not even about "big enough" or separate but equal or anything else ... when housing ball pythons together it's about dominance. When 2 or more ball pythons are together, one will become dominant and the others will become submissive. The dominance is sometimes overt, but mostly subtle. To the untrained eye, you will probably never see it happen, but it does. One ball python WILL GET the better everything .... It's like 2 little kids ... if they are playing together and the smaller or younger child wants a cookie, the older or larger child will suddenly want one too (even if he wasn't even thinking about eating or cookies in the first place, it's purely instinctual ... dominance) ... the 2 children will compete to see who gets the "first cookie" out of the cookie jar ... it doesn't matter who wins because in the end one will inevitably lose. Same thing happens with ball pythons, and in the ball python world loser == stressed animal. Over a long enough time a stressed ball python will begin to get sick because the stress will take a toll on the animals immune system.

-adam

Very well put.
Every time I have seen multiple BPs housed together, they were always in the same spot of the cage, coiled together. People say the craziest things like "oh, they love each other, they're friends." Don't they realize that a snake has about as much emotion in itself as my left sneaker? :) The poor things are just competing for the best spot in the cage, really.
At any rate, it has to be unduly stressful to put more than one BP in a cage.

imo ... i dont care what other people do, it is their life and their freewill. others may call them ignorant and others may not, it is not my place to judge. they will learn one way or another and that is the way it should be. as for being domanant i have seem multiple bps in a cage and all of them in a different spot away from the others each time i have seen them. as for the whole emotional thing that goes into religion beliefs on my end so i wont even touch that area ill just say i dont agree. that is my answer for you.

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Originally Posted by Egyptian_Sphynx

imo ... i dont care what other people do, it is their life and their freewill. others may call them ignorant and others may not, it is not my place to judge. they will learn one way or another and that is the way it should be. as for being domanant i have seem multiple bps in a cage and all of them in a different spot away from the others each time i have seen them. as for the whole emotional thing that goes into religion beliefs on my end so i wont even touch that area ill just say i dont agree. that is my answer for you.

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Huh?? Your words are in english but I have no idea what your point is?

In an environment with 2 or more ball pythons one will dominate the other(s). That is not an opinion or a theory, it is proven fact. Same thing happens with many other species and it has been researched and proven to death. Any college level text on basic animal behavior will give a great overview if anyone is looking for more information.

FWIW, I don't care what other people do either .... but I do get a little pi$$y when people advocate keeping ball pythons in a way that can lead to their deaths. Enough die every year on the way over from Africa, once they get here we should do everything we can to keep them alive. Proper housing is the perfect place to start.

-adam

my point is....

no matter if it is a proven fact some will say it is just an opinion and do what they want anyways. so that is why i have a nutral opinion on the pole, because i could talk until i was blue in the face and it wont make a dent in the other persons preference if they are determined to house more than one. then it could go the opposite way i could fight saying you can house them together and talk until blue in the face and it wouldnt change the othersides preference. some people who come to the site and read this post might be thinking ... if you wouldnt buy them you wouldnt have the housing problem and if you wouldnt buy them they would not be dieing causing all the disputes.

just my .01 cent (i dont have .02 just one:) )

One cage for each snake - be able to provide that, period. Because sooner or later, even if you do house them together, you're going to have to separate them for one reason or another.

I do not advocate keeping snakes together outside of breeding.

Just my $.02

K~

One is not a lonely number when it comes to Ball pythons. I think that when kept as pets, they should be allowed to live together in the same enclosure only for breeding purposes.

IMHO, people who keep Ball Pythons together in the same enclosure are(other than breeding),

1) Are not aware of the fact that they should be housed separately.
2) Are aware of it but choose to ignore it.
3) Think that they will get lonely(I used to know a kind hearted soul who thought that)
4) Keeping snakes only to impress friends and do not really care about the animal.
5) Impulsive collectors who get in way over their heads

Thats all that comes to mind at 1am:oops:. Feel free to add to the list ya'll.

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Originally Posted by Egyptian_Sphynx

imo ... i dont care what other people do, it is their life and their freewill.

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Till they use that freewill in their life to put a big dent in yours or your loved ones. However, this point is a debate for another time and place:P

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Originally Posted by iceman25

Till they use that freewill in their life to put a big dent in yours or your loved ones. However, this point is a debate for another time and place:P

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its not a debate i can answer that one, it has already happened within my family and been settled, i simply just do not talk, look at, or give them the time of day. that is my way if dealing with them.

1 ill snake > 2+ ill snakes

if you have them sharing a cage not only is it difficult to tell which one of them is ill, it is highly likely that they will BOTH be by the time you notice it. I just can't see the sense in doing this nor understand the motivation behind it.

i have successfully kept 2 ball pythons together for about 3 years. Both of them are males and they are fed and handled seperately. I see it being a benefit by not having to keep mutiple cages heat mats etc. It seems to be my observation after these 3 years that the snakes actually enjoy one anothers company. i have heard all the negatives, please don't flame me. I am just stating that i have done it and it has worked out well!!!

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Originally Posted by Rick

It seems to be my observation after these 3 years that the snakes actually enjoy one anothers company.

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Really? No flame, just curious as to what exactly it has been that you observed that lead you to this conclusion?

-adam

I usually keep about 4 females in a 20 gallon aquarium, seems to work out great....

(I think I sense a hint of sarcasm :P)

lol.. I knew that sarcasm had to come into this thread eventually; breaks the tension a bit. :)
I think that alot of the time, people tend to personify their pets. In reality though, I highly doubt that a snake can enjoy another snake's presence.
I know that "higher" beings such as mammals do exhibit "emotional" behaviors. I just don't see it as realistic, that lower beings like reptiles (and you could go down to the amoeba if you wanted) feel emotion though. They act and rely purely on instinct to survive. Higher animals have the ability to rationalize more and learn things, like a wild dog gradually learning that it is much easier to live with humans, than to be in the wild. I never see snakes becoming fully domesticated and tame like a higher mammal could. I do not believe they have the mental cpacity for it. sure, they can become "used" to being handled, and a "pet" BP would probably not survive long in the wild if a predator were after it. But is that snake mentally capable of, say, affection or emotions? I don't think it is.
So thus, I do not think they can feel emotions and "enjoy" each other's company.

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Originally Posted by Egyptian_Sphynx

its not a debate i can answer that one, it has already happened within my family and been settled, i simply just do not talk, look at, or give them the time of day. that is my way if dealing with them.

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Sorry, did not mean to ruffle your feathers :)

Found this on kingsnake.com, part of their care guide. Any comments??


Snake are like potato chips, you can't stop with just one... At least I couldn't. Once you do get another snake you need to quarantine× it from your other snake(s) for a couple of months. The new snake may be diseased or parasitized and you wouldn't want it to infect your healthy animals. Once you quarantine, it's OK to put snakes in the same cage assuming: they are of the same species (Ball Python, Python regius), they are similar sized, and the cage provides ample room and hide boxes. I strongly caution against putting other types of snake together in the same cage. Other species snakes may have care requirements and different types of disease/infection that your Ball Python's immune system cannot handle. You will want to separate them at feeding time. And you may notice that they will not eat unless housed individually.

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Originally Posted by Rick

Found this on kingsnake.com, part of their care guide. Any comments??

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Sorry, Rick, but just because you read something on Kingsnake does not make it right. I've read in a few places that Ball Pythons need UV light, and obviously that is not true.

Putting aside the advice from people like Adam who care for lots of these little buggers, just think about it logically. They are solitary creatures and lived that way for probably millions of years, but let's say for arguments sake that they can get along swimmingly with each other. Chances are you will have problems with one of them sooner or later, and you'll have to deal with the the issue of which one has a problem and how to effectively treat the snake that does, or possibly all of them.

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Originally Posted by Rick

It seems to be my observation after these 3 years that the snakes actually enjoy one anothers company.

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Rick,

Still waiting on what specific observation led you to this conclusion?

The Kingsnake caresheet is crap ... lots of bad information in it.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Rick

i have successfully kept 2 ball pythons together for about 3 years. Both of them are males and they are fed and handled seperately. I see it being a benefit by not having to keep mutiple cages heat mats etc. It seems to be my observation after these 3 years that the snakes actually enjoy one anothers company. i have heard all the negatives, please don't flame me. I am just stating that i have done it and it has worked out well!!!

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First up, no flaming :) Hypothetically, if you released your snakes in the wild(not saying you are or you should, but hypothetically), do you think they will still stay together?

No the snakes would not live together in the wild. But with proper care and husbandry multiple snales can and are kept together sucessfully by a number of people.There is always a chance that a snake may have to be quarantined but i do not believe it is a big chance. My snakes as i have said have lived together for 3 yrs with absolutely no problems.My adult is actually a better eater since having a roomate!!HAha He went off feed a couple of times for 3 months when he was single but it has never happened since. I don't know for sure if they enjoy each others company, but they do hang out together at times and at other times they are solitary. They each have seperate hides on the hot and cool sides and never sem to have a problem with them using their own. I do not ever see either snake trying to dominate the other, and i always feed each seperately outside the cage so as to avoid problems. It has worked for me and i am happy it has. Hopefully I will never have a problem such as others have had and I wish all who try this success!!

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Originally Posted by Rick

But with proper care and husbandry multiple snales can and are kept together sucessfully by a number of people.

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And if you play the lottery enough times, you might hit the jackpot! ;) Just because people do it, does not make it right. Sure it "can" work out, but there is no expert in the field of herpetology that will agree that it's the right thing to do for your animals. Why wouldn't you want to do something as simple as housing separately if every authority on the care of these animals in the world agrees that it's the correct way to house them?

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Originally Posted by Rick

My adult is actually a better eater since having a roomate!!

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That's because instead of correcting the husbandry problems that lead to the eating problems, you introduced and animal that your original snake felt he had to compete with. His feeding response naturally increased because of the now perceived competition for food. It's a scenario right out of Animal Behavior 101.

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Originally Posted by Rick

I don't know for sure if they enjoy each others company,

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But that's not what you said in your earlier post????

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Originally Posted by Rick

I do not ever see either snake trying to dominate the other

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Unless you know what you're looking for, it's not something you'd expect to see. It's very subtle, but if they are laying together and then apart like you said, it's definitely there.

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Originally Posted by Rick

It has worked for me and i am happy it has. Hopefully I will never have a problem such as others have had and I wish all who try this success!!

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Good luck with that.

-adam

There once was a man from Nantucket.....................

hey it works out for rick so good for him.
its not impossible to keep two balls together.
i do it everyday.
haha
but seriously, i have read in a few different books that although these are solitary animals you can house two ball pythons together. obviously if one has a problem you wont know which one it is and probably both will get it by the time you notice it. but thats the same with keeping other herps together in one enclosure. for breeders who want to be safe and not get any of their stock sick they most likely keep one to one. but if you have two healthy balls and you're taking proper care of them both like rick is, then i see no problem.

uh oh... now im gonna get it....

I am requesting that those participating in this thread, please be a bit more careful, this is a volitile subject. Those of you who have been on this forum for sometime know this.. this is one of those situations that if you cant just give your opinion and know when not to hit reply again, then maybe you should not post a reply in the first place. I have not replied on this thread for that reason. To avoid what this thread is turning into- a flame war. Flame wars will not be tolerated, and ppl will be suspended for such things. If you want to argue about this with eachother, please do so in private by PM, or better yet, off site.

It is time that you all realize that no matter what you do and how much argueing for what you feel to be the "right way", you are not going to change another persons mind on something of this nature- we dont like it, but it is the way it is. Be constructive, not destructive.

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Originally Posted by Jeanne

this is one of those situations that if you cant just give your opinion

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Have I posted something other than my opinion?

You said ...

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Those of you who have been on this forum for sometime know this

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and I do .... please let me know where I've crossed the line?

-adam

Well all my humor aside, here is my opinion.. People put 3 snakes in one cage for 2 reasons
1) To save money by not supplying proper housing
2) Misinformed on the proper husbandry of the specie
3) Having a "cool pet" is just that, and the animals needs come second only to being able to say "Lookie what I got"

And Adam you crossed the line by getting up this morning..mauhahahahaha

Adam... I never said you or anybody else posted something other than your opinion.... nor said or inferred that you or anybody else crossed the line... in fact, I dont recall my post naming anyone in particlar. In fact, this comment:
"Those of you who have been on this forum for sometime know this.. this is one of those situations that if you cant just give your opinion and know when not to hit reply again, then maybe you should not post a reply in the first place." speaks for itself. You like other members are aware that there are situations that have occurred in the past , that warrant us to know when to close the mouth instead of having to insert the foot later. Not a personal attack, it is a observation ppl probably have made over thier course of learning netiquette and behaviors that diffuse a situation before it gets out of hand.

My post is/was a general public reminder that basically, there are times we need to know when NOT to hit the reply button and continue to brow beat, bear bait and whatnot when your opinion is not changing the mind of whomever originally posted. It becomes a deconstructive topic. The goal here is to be contructive and provide good info or opinions on experiences- that is, being constructive. To repeatedly tell someone your opinion making it an arguement or power struggle, is much like beating your head against the wall. You spend more time and energy on a waste, when you could be elsewhere in a forum being constructive.

Now please take my warning for what it is.. I dont want to see this thread locked/moved because of flames. In fact, it can be a great thread for those who wanna know about this.

Jeannes right. This thread has all the potential of turning into a flame war and my hot head doesn't help at times. So.......


http://www.allhatnocattle.net/outta%20here.jpg

So Jeanne, in your personal opinion, is the advocating of housing multiple ball pythons in a single enclosure "contructive and provide good info or opinions on experiences" as in your quote

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Originally Posted by Jeanne

The goal here is to be contructive and provide good info or opinions on experiences- that is, being constructive.

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Just curious?

-adam

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Originally Posted by BALLPYTHON

i have read in a few different books that although these are solitary animals you can house two ball pythons together.

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What are the titles and authors of the books? I thought that I already owned all of the ball python husbandry books in existance, but I guess I could have missed a few. Any help that you could provide would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

-adam

Not to change subject bu did you know Kevin McCurly is coming out with a ball python book.. Now thats gonna be nice...

Ok this post has scared me away for a few days now mainly cause I had no idea which direction this was going to head contructive (which it did) or flame war. Now I have the perfect picture that defines competition for a hide spot, before anyone wants to string me up yes these are my BP's but they are only being housed together in this pic because I had everyones enclosures torned down and ready to move. This was taken 3 days before my move from Tampa to San Antonio. Here is the pic I personaly think its a cute pick but I dont advocate keeping snakes together other than for breeding.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...77/misc023.jpg

That actually is a pretty cool pic..lol

Then i'm sure you have "The Art of Keeping Snakes" by Philippe de Vosjoli.

In the ball python section the author doesn't specifically state that ball pythons can be kept together, but he does say: remove ball pythons from the cage when feeding if kept in groups.(not a quote)

He doesnt specify what age the ball pythons in this group are but if he meant hatchlings i think he would have made it clear.

Books say alot of things.....some are right....some are wrong....some are just not clear. No matter what any book says you should always find experienced people to help you learn what is right. In school, we are not just given a book and expected to learn something. We have teachers to make sure we learn what is right and what is wrong. Many of people have kept ball pythons for years. Most have them have not written books, but instead have learned from experiences and the aid of others. I will always follow the advice of keepers such as Adam and Kara and I would hope that everyone else would choose to do the same.

If some of the very experienced keepers would like to give examples of their bad experiences with keeping multiple snakes in one enclosure, I think that would help people understand why they should not be kept together. Adam's About page on his site says that he had an accidental breeding that took place from housing multiples that really got him hooked on ball pythons. I have also read post of snakes disappearing and their cagemate looking fatter. I think the more experiences that are posted the better it will be.

ha...sorry for the ramble. I just hope everyone chooses to do what is BEST for their pets and not just SETTLE for something because it WORKS.

Keep in mind that books often have out of date information...

I have tarantula books that have the wrong genus name in them, for example.

Alot of people really arent doing anything wrong per say. They did there research, the read many care sheets off say the internet many of them said they same thing (mainly due to the fact that they are cut&pastes from another site) so they went with that care advice and have been raising an animal that appears healthy but as we all know animals can take years of abuse before they show signs. Then they stumble apon forums like this and have to start sorting thru the numerous posts pertaining to animal care or they just post a question pertaining to the animal and many times (not on this site so much) get flamed for asking a question that has been asked 100 times before (I am dealing with this in the Savannah monitor world right now). We have to remain constructive at all times or people will turn away from what we say. We also need to back up are statements. I know many people here care alot about their BPs and are passionate about there care. Much Like I am about Savannah Monitors. But remember we are here to help people not chastise them for making a mistake in our eyes.

Well said Daniel and Sean.

[QUOTE=daniel1983]Books say alot of things.....some are right....some are wrong....some are just not clear.

just another opinion ...
People say alot of things...some are right and some are wrong....some are just not clear

"No matter what any book says you should always find experienced people to help you learn what is right."

how experienced is experienced???? id have to think hard about that one.

"In school, we are not just given a book and expected to learn something. We have teachers to make sure we learn what is right and what is wrong."

not sure of which school you went to but your lucky because the one i went to they just hand you the book and say there you go.

"Many of people have kept ball pythons for years. Most have them have not written books, but instead have learned from experiences and the aid of others. I will always follow the advice of keepers such as Adam and Kara and I would hope that everyone else would choose to do the same."

choose is the operative word. just because one says they are "keepers" doesnt mean that i believe they are "keepers". just a different point of veiw from my direction. bu this is the last i post post for my own minds sake.....

edit= and just for the record, just because one says they have no opinion on the subject it is not advocating ... it is still just an opinion on the subject.