Super cinnamons/black pastels?

I want to know more about super cinnamons and black pastel. I have heard they sometimes come out with deformities? How often is this, and is there a way to prevent it? I love the solid black look and really want to get one. But I also dont want to produce a clutch deformed babys, that would be much too hard on me.

I know there are perfectly fine super versions of both supers, however there is no way to guarantee that there would be no deformed babies if you decided to go for the super. If you get a super and then breed it to any other morph to make regular (non super) combos then the risk of deformities goes way down (it will never be zero, even a normal can end up with a deformity for a variety of reasons).

is there any way to lower the risk of deformities?

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Originally Posted by tegu

is there any way to lower the risk of deformities?

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None that are known. Not worth the risk in my opinion.

Thats what I was thinking. I dont want any animals to suffer for my own greed.

If you think hatching deformed babies will be too hard for you, you might want to reconsider breeding all together because no matter what you pair, you will lose hatchling and you will produce hatchlings deformed enough that they will have to be euthanize.

As for super cinny and Super Black Pastel it happens even when you outcross, they are just prone to issues which is why some people chose not to work with the supers, I work with back pastels I just have no interest in working with supers.

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If you wanted to decrease the likelihood, you might find a breeder who hasn't had any issues producing supers without deformities. This doesn't rule out the possibility, but it might help your odds.

Any snake can produce a deformed hatchling. Any egg can have an issue during incubation that causes a deformity. It CAN happen, and every breeder should be aware and be prepared and willing to deal with the occasion, should it happen.

I could handle one deformed baby what I'd have trouble with is a full clutch of them. I Will avoid the supers of these morphs because of this. I'm not going to go into something knowing the deformities are at a higher rate.

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Originally Posted by tegu

I could handle one deformed baby what I'd have trouble with is a full clutch of them. I Will avoid the supers of these morphs because of this. I'm not going to go into something knowing the deformities are at a higher rate.

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Full clutch of deformed babies can still happen regardless of the mutation, breeding is not only about all the cute hatchlings people post, there's the heartbreak too.....Just some food for the thoughts.

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Gosh that's heartbreaking. But I think that the harder part for me would be finding a good home for the poor little guys. Finding a good home for reptiles is TOUGH. I've rescued a few but the amount that get left behind is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by tegu

Gosh that's heartbreaking. But I think that the harder part for me would be finding a good home for the poor little guys. Finding a good home for reptiles is TOUGH. I've rescued a few but the amount that get left behind is ridiculous.

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Just to be clear, some of the deformities are severe enough that you will have to kill the animal. There will be no home finding for these individuals. Do not breed unless you are capable of doing what needs to be done.

I think you're making a good choice by choosing to avoid pairings that have a higher than usual chance of physical deformity. Yes, deformity can occur in any clutch, but when it occurs, for example in a normal clutch, you can think to yourself 'it's just one of those things'. If it was in a super cinny hatchling (for example), you'd be thinking in the back of your mind 'I caused this'. I think that would be the big difference from me, from an emotional standpoint - it's much easier to accept something when you feel as though there was nothing you could do to prevent it.

And besides, it all comes down to risk in the end and what level of risk you personally are willing to accept; the risk in a normal clutch is much lower, and that risk may be acceptable to OP, whereas the risk from a cinny x cinny pairing clearly isn't.

From an ethical perspective, I think it's wrong to do any pairing where the offspring have a significantly higher than normal chance of a health complaint, be it physical deformity, a neurological issue, or whatever else, so I think OP is doing the right thing :)

I think Giga said it very well. It would be hard see a deformity when I had intentionally increased the chances of the outcome. I may wait a few years if I want to breed anyway, just to prepare myself for it.

I Hatched out a nice clutch of black pastel cinnamon"s a few weeks ago to get the all black 8 ball. I went though pages of stuff on the morph for weeks to try to get the best outcome before breeding. With all snakes you can have deformities like what was said above but from what I read, not doing the super helps a lot. I had 6 eggs and one has a very very small kink but everyone else was perfect . We got 2 pastel- black pastel- cinnamon's, 3 black pastel-cinnamon's and one pewter.

There are a lot of good arguments in this post for why not to produce super black pastel / cinnamon. I have to admit that they made me second guess the ethics and motives behind why I want to produce super black pastels. For me what ball python breeding comes down to is striving to creating a new morph and people enjoying the diversity of these animals.


I dont believe the people who have a passion for this go out to intentionally cause harm but genetics and selective breeding are a gamble, bad things happen. We know that super form of these animals have problems but regardless i am drawn to them. I see people ask from time to time " what morph should I buy " and the reply I often see is "go with what you like" , i like super black pastels because they are awesome looking animals. To the best of my ability I will try to produce healthy animals but I will fall short some of the time. I also breed rats to be feed to my snakes which some people find horrible but to the best of my ability I treat them humanly and with respect.

Everyone will have there own opinion on this subject but for those of us that like the supers we have to weight the pros and cons for ourselves and not be dissuaded by other people's opinions.

You can do a black pastel cinnamon and get an 8 ball. They're all black too and less risk. I discussed deformities with local breeders by me and they actually prefer the 8 ball. I'm going to try for that once mine get big enough

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Here's what was posted in another thread about different morphs being lethal.

http://owalreptiles.com/issues.php

From what I understand the sumas don't have the deformity issues of the black pastels and cinnamon supers.

When you add cinnamon to a suma you get that gorgeous all black snake.

That's the route I plan on taking to get a black ball python.

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Originally Posted by Ba11er

There are a lot of good arguments in this post for why not to produce super black pastel / cinnamon. I have to admit that they made me second guess the ethics and motives behind why I want to produce super black pastels. For me what ball python breeding comes down to is striving to creating a new morph and people enjoying the diversity of these animals.


I dont believe the people who have a passion for this go out to intentionally cause harm but genetics and selective breeding are a gamble, bad things happen. We know that super form of these animals have problems but regardless i am drawn to them. I see people ask from time to time " what morph should I buy " and the reply I often see is "go with what you like" , i like super black pastels because they are awesome looking animals. To the best of my ability I will try to produce healthy animals but I will fall short some of the time. I also breed rats to be feed to my snakes which some people find horrible but to the best of my ability I treat them humanly and with respect.

Everyone will have there own opinion on this subject but for those of us that like the supers we have to weight the pros and cons for ourselves and not be dissuaded by other people's opinions.

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This is the best response I've seen yet on this thread. No one wants to hatch babies that will have to be put down. You will see good and bad with all aspects of breeding snakes. If you want to hear about heartache, just ask anyone that has kept and bred a number of green tree pythons.....losing an entire clutch of beautiful babies because they absolutely refuse all attempts at getting them to bite and eat.

We do this out of passion. Sometimes passion gets the best of us. If you've been doing this for a long time, you will have had your fair share of negative results, even with things you never expected. The choice is always up to the keeper. Take a pass, or take a chance and produce animals like this.
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...pslgrep21x.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...psnmd9zhii.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...psdriemp9p.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...pslhybbtxn.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...pshvbginqc.jpghttp://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...psdc08e26a.jpg

Those are some of the most beautiful snakes I have ever seen!