bp 26' long, how big of a rat to feed?

I feel stupid asking this, since I kind of already know the answer, but I guess I need conformation. I have been debating with myself, whether to feed 2 mice or one rat. Piston loves mice, but I like how rats, encourages him to grow. I have no intentions of breeding him/her I just want him to be as big as possible. He also got a heck of a lot more girth, since I start feeding rats. No, I do not power feed. He takes rats just fine, but I'm having problems deciding what size to go for? He is about 26" long, and his girth is about the size of a golf ball. Assuming you have normal size hands, the girth is about the same size as when you touch the tip of your thumb, with the tip of your "pointing" finger. I hope that gives you guys and idea. I find myself, in the pet store I go to, always asking for the biggest fuzzy rat they have, and always seems too small. This is the main reason I sometimes feed two mice, instead of rats. Even the biggest fuzzy rats I fed, leave no lump in his body.

Anybody out there with a similar size bp? If so, what do you feed?

if you say that the girth is the size of a golfball, try to feed your snake a rat that is about that size. i just started with bps but i have kept bci in the past and that was the rule of thumb that i was told to go with.

hope info helped.

leo

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Originally Posted by smellati

Piston loves mice, but I like how rats, encourages him to grow. I have no intentions of breeding him/her I just want him to be as big as possible.

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What's the rush to get him "as big as possible"? Why not feed your snake what your snake prefers and let him grow the way HE wants to grow? If you wanted a snake that "got big" quickly, a ball python probably wasn't the best choice ;)

-adam

Will he lose his girth, if I start feeding mice again? You're right, a bp was probably not the best choice, but now I'm attached to him, so he's gonna be with me forever. I freakin love him! He is so tame and good natured. At what size should I start feeding 3, 4,or 5 mice? How do you feed them Adam? Do you give them some time to digest first, before throwing in the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th?

Oops, I just noticed I wrote that my bp is 26 FEET long, in the title. My bad.

Haha! I was going to say... for a 26' long ball python, any size rat would be an appetizer. :P

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Originally Posted by smellati

At what size should I start feeding 3, 4,or 5 mice? How do you feed them Adam? Do you give them some time to digest first, before throwing in the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th?

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My adult males that are mousers eat 2 large adult mice per week no matter how large they are (and I have some HUGE male mousers). There's no need to "stuff them full" of mice, they won't loose weight as long as you are offering food once a week. They need far less food than you can imagine ... in the wild, adult ball pythons might only eat 6 - 10 times A YEAR!

As soon as the first one is down I wait about 5 minutes and offer the second.

-adam

I would also infer that the "low-fat" diet of mice would make a pretty lean breeder male as well, right?

Ironically, my male eats rats without a problem, and my female is pretty hooked on mice.

I just about fell off the chair when I read the title:eek: Anyways, get a piece of string. Wrap it around the thickest part of your BP. Then take the feeder rodent and wrap the same string around it. If they are the same size or if the rodent is slightly bigger, go ahead and feed it to your BP. This is assuming you are feeding FT.
Raj

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

I would also infer that the "low-fat" diet of mice would make a pretty lean breeder male as well, right?

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Personally, I don't fell that the fat content of mice vs. rats is relevant when raising ball pythons.

-adam

Rats just go straight to the hips.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Personally, I don't fell that the fat content of mice vs. rats is relevant when raising ball pythons.

-adam

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Really? I just keep reading that over and over (rats having more fat) at various places.

Is there any "bottom line" when it comes to mice vs. rats thing?

its not the lenght of ur bp thats important when feedin, u shuld only feed ur bp a rat or mouse that does not exceed the largest part of ur bp,s body. am not 2 sure bout how much fat is in a rat or mouse but they r very sililar so i wouldnt worie bout that 2 much

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Really? I just keep reading that over and over (rats having more fat) at various places.

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Sure there is a study that says rats at certain sizes have more fat or protein or blah than mice at different sizes, but without a corresponding study showing what a ball python of a given age/size "NEEDS" in it's diet the point is moot. Numbers don't mean a thing without an equation to apply them to.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Is there any "bottom line" when it comes to mice vs. rats thing?

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No there is not. Feed your snake what it will eat and what is most convenient for you.

-adam

When feeding multiple mice, do you just keep offering until they've had enough? Is there a maximum number you should offer? Lily seems to like mice more. She will take a rat (which is easier for me) but she seems to like mice more so I am most likely going to continue to offer them. Just wasn't sure how many mice are enough or too much.

not to sound rude tigerlily, but your question has already been answered, in this thread. But in case you can't find it, according to Adam, there is no need to feed more than 2 mice, at any age. I personally find that odd, but you can't argue with someone, with his extensive experience.

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Originally Posted by smellati

I personally find that odd, but you can't argue with someone, with his extensive experience.

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Why do you find it odd?

Ball pythons are cold blooded and don't require the massive caloric intake that warm blooded animals need to generate their own body heat. Their extremely slow metabolisms are designed to make use of small amounts of calories in the most efficient way possible. Coupled with the fact that they are predators without arms and legs and have evolved to deal with the reality that catching prey is basically a hit or miss proposition (quite literally), I don't think it's too hard to grasp the logic behind realizing that ball pythons just don't need a whole lot of food to thrive.

Again, in the wild these animals eat maybe a dozen times a year if that …. Being hand fed a couple of mice every 7 days is plenty of food for an adult male. Most ball pythons in captivity are way overfed as it is.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Again, in the wild these animals eat maybe a dozen times a year if that …. Being hand fed a couple of mice every 7 days is plenty of food for an adult male. Most ball pythons in captivity are way overfed as it is.

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I agree, however I think he said that it was odd because a BP is more than capable of handling a larger meal. I've read a few times about how it's better to feed more often with smaller meals, but haven't seen any data to back it up. It seems like in the wild they would probably find different size meals at different intervals, so do you think there is anything wrong with feeding a large rat once every 2 weeks instead of a small rat or 2 mice every week?

Ok maybe I should clarify since the question was answered for adult males and I was curious about females. (seeing as how I don't have a male bp). I remember from another thread that Adam said (and I'm kinda fuzzy on memory) he fed upwards to 3-5 mice to some of his adult females. This is where my question comes from.

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Originally Posted by xdeus

I agree, however I think he said that it was odd because a BP is more than capable of handling a larger meal.

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Just because a ball python is "capable" of eating large meals, doesn't mean that that is what's best. I'm capable of eating probably about 2 gallons of ice cream at a sitting, but I try and limit myself so that I can get my a$$ out of the chair when I'm done ;)

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Originally Posted by xdeus

I've read a few times about how it's better to feed more often with smaller meals, but haven't seen any data to back it up.

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In my experience, ball pythons do better overall eating much smaller meals than you would think is likely. I have a nice big collection of full bodied animals that eat every week, they are data enough for me. Anytime you’d like to drop by for a feeding day, you’re certainly welcome to see for yourself! :D

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Originally Posted by xdeus

It seems like in the wild they would probably find different size meals at different intervals,

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Well to that I would say number one, that the ”wild” and captivity are two completely different things … and number two, having no arms and legs, ball python must be able to feed opportunistically in the wild (taking any meal they can when they can get it) … in captivity, they have the luxury of food being made available to them at a far more regular basis than any wild snake would ever get so there is no need for them to “bulk up” when the “getting is good” in fear of not being able to find food later. Instead, they can eat on a more regular schedule and get the nutrients and calories they need from smaller food items.

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Originally Posted by xdeus

so do you think there is anything wrong with feeding a large rat once every 2 weeks instead of a small rat or 2 mice every week?

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Of course there is nothing wrong with it, it’s just something that from experience I don’t choose to do. I know that with my snakes, I prefer consistent regular feeding over large meals that may be “stored up” and cause fasting because the snake is “full”. (Over the years I have fed both ways, and for me, smaller meals work much much better).

All that said, every keeper and snake is different and each person should certainly figure out what works best in their collection and do that! :D

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

All that said, every keeper and snake is different and each person should certainly figure out what works best in their collection and do that! :D

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Well, being that most of us peons probably have a tad less experience than you, we tend to listen to your advice pretty closely. Besides, it does make sense although many weekend warrior breeders seem to come from the camp where they want their females to grow as big and fat as possible in order to start breeding.

On a similar note, how much do you know about snake physiology? Specifically, their muscle tissue. I'm amazed at how strong snakes are for their size and how little they do to become that strong. I suppose I wouldn't be that surprised if they were from the wild and were constantly on the move, avoiding predators, and looking for food and mates. But in captivity they are pretty much couch potatoes and if you don't overfeed them (and even if you do) they still seem to maintain strong muscle tissue. Just another meaningless thought going throug my head... :hmm:

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Well, being that most of us peons probably have a tad less experience than you, we tend to listen to your advice pretty closely.

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I make no claims that my experience is the be all end all to ball python husbandry. I am constantly learning and will continue to do so for a long time I'm sure. I share my experiences and opinions not for people to follow blindly, but to be helpful to people making decisions either one way or the other or for developing a new idea or methodology (I mostly imagine people rolling their eyes and mumbling under their breath when they see my name next to a post :P). There are many many ways to keep these amazing animals and be successful, I've personally had success with some and failure with others and share them all openly.

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Originally Posted by xdeus

many weekend warrior breeders seem to come from the camp where they want their females to grow as big and fat as possible in order to start breeding.

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In a sense, I do as well, but bigger isn't always better when it comes to females. Big "fat" girls make horrible breeders, anyone breeding ball pythons for any length of time will tell you that. Over the years, I've learned how to put "healthy" weight on my girls for better breeding success. Unfortunately for many that are rushing towards the goal of producing morphs for profit, that process may be a little slower than they would like. I tend to think in terms of marathons rather than sprints, so feeding smaller prey items works well for me. But I can certainly see how someone eager to produce their first morph would be inclined to stuff their girls full of big ole rats to "get er done" .... I was there once myself ;)

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I make no claims that my experience is the be all end all to ball python husbandry. I am constantly learning and will continue to do so for a long time I'm sure.

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I think a lot of people in this field feel the same way, however some are more eager to believe what they read the most of or read first instead of what makes sense. One reason I tend to like your advice is that it follows a more scientific approach instead of a bandwagon one. A few examples are feeding on substrate or feeding live. I remember one conversation I had with a woman that seemed to feel anyone who fed live rodents to a snake should be reported to the Humane Society. :rolleyes: I'm sure she has seen the picture of that snake that was essentially killed by a rat so she probably based a lot of her feelings on that one picture.

That's not to say that I agree with all of your advice, well it wasn't really advice but you seem to be a much larger advocate for mice in the mice vs. rat debate. I can see how you can feel that way because so many people seem to want to get their snakes on rats right away because of the stories about growth spurts and such. However for many people it's also based on economics and convenience. It's cheaper and more convenient to use frozen rats from a company like RP instead of using multiple mice. Although I suppose if I had as many snakes as you, I would probably go your route as well for safety and convenience.

BTW, Adam, do you keep any other snakes besides Balls?

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Originally Posted by xdeus

That's not to say that I agree with all of your advice, well it wasn't really advice but you seem to be a much larger advocate for mice in the mice vs. rat debate.

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Actually, that's not true at all. What I advocate feeding is #1 what your snake is willing to eat, and #2 what is most convenient and cost effective for you. Most people that own a ball python or two can get mice pretty cheaply and easily each week from a local pet store or pet store chain. Rats on the other hand can be very expensive compared to mice and finding a good variety of sizes for your growing ball pythons at the local PetCo is a pain in the rear. Ordering a large enough amount of frozen feeders over the internet to be cost effective for shipping can be a hefty sum to plop down for a lot of people as well. IMO, for the average ball python pet owner, feeding mice for the lifetime of the animal can work out very well.

I do advocate feeding smaller sized items than with other commonly kept pythons and boas. I feel that ball pythons have a slower metabolism and many of the complaints of "fasting" experienced with balls are due to people feeding too large of prey items far too often.

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Originally Posted by xdeus

BTW, Adam, do you keep any other snakes besides Balls?

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No, I'm all balls! ;) (although I have kept and bred many species of pythons as well as corns, milks, and kings over the last 25 years).

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Most people that own a ball python or two can get mice pretty cheaply and easily each week from a local pet store or pet store chain.

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Ahhh... okay. I suppose that makes sense, but I found the opposite was true in my area. There are only a couple places around here that can provide live or frozen rodents, and they are incredibly expensive. For example, they want $2.50 for a pinkie mouse or $4.00 for a regular mouse or rat pup. Of course that probably has something to do with reptile enthusiasts being rather sparse around here.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

No, I'm all balls! ;) (although I have kept and bred many species of pythons as well as corns, milks, and kings over the last 25 years).

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It seems like my hobby has spread to my kids, and they are now looking forward to breeding Black Milks. :P I warned them that it will be at least 3 years before they can start breeding, but they don't seem to mind. However I have a feeling I'm in for 3 years of "are they ready yet?!".

BTW, have you seen the homo Spotnose from VPI? incredible.

Out of curiosity Adam, why only interested in balls? I have a bp, and now I want like 10 other snake species because of it.

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Originally Posted by smellati

Out of curiosity Adam, why only interested in balls? I have a bp, and now I want like 10 other snake species because of it.

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Because they were my first passion I guess. I remember the night my dad brought home my first pet ever when I was eight years old like it was yesterday .... A big fat female ball python .... that night, I slept with her in a pillow case next to me in bed.

Since then, I've just always had ball pythons around me (before I had even seen a "morph" or knew what one was). There is just something about them that I am totally obsessed with ... it's a feeling that I never got from the other snakes that I have kept .... it's kind of wierd and "earthy" to say, but I just always feel "at home" when I'm working with ball pythons.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

A big fat female ball python .... that night, I slept with her in a pillow case next to me in bed.

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Hmm... 98.6 sounds a bit high... might want to drop those temps a bit... :P j/k

This is just an odd question. 98.6 is the average internal body temperature. What is an average external body temperature. I'm sure someone out there has temp gun that can tell me. Sorry for the dumb question.

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Originally Posted by tigerlily

This is just an odd question. 98.6 is the average internal body temperature. What is an average external body temperature. I'm sure someone out there has temp gun that can tell me. Sorry for the dumb question.

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I too, would venture to guess that temperatures at extremeties (sp) would be quite a bit lower since it is away from the core temp. I would also guess that they would vary with different extremeties and drop the further they are away from the 'core'. I have a temp gun at home... I can try it later tonight.

Although, if he had the blankets ('binky' at the time? :P ) covering himself and the snake that would hold in quite a bit of heat so actually it may have been just right for the snake... say around 92-95 ish? Just a guess.

Ok, back to more nerd work I go. :nerd:

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Originally Posted by Isshinharu

Although, if he had the blankets ('binky' at the time? :P ) covering himself and the snake that would hold in quite a bit of heat so actually it may have been just right for the snake... say around 92-95 ish? Just a guess.

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When I was 8 years old, there were no websites, DVD's, ball python manuals, or anything else that gave us even the slightest clue about how to care for ball pythons .... I’m pretty sure my father didn't "purchase" her so she came with no care information at all. A lot of how I learned to take care of her was from trial and error ... believe it or not, the first meals she was offered were raw chicken and chop meat left in her cage overnight .... we just didn't know any better at the time.

Needless to say, I've learned a WHOLE lot since then and amazingly enough me and "Tiger" (I thought she was a boy for about 12 years) made it through alright.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Needless to say, I've learned a WHOLE lot since then and amazingly enough me and "Tiger" (I thought she was a boy for about 12 years) made it through alright.

-adam

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Haha... yes yes... we've got it quite easy these days, thanks to people like you. :D