Super Champagne Question

I read about the super champagnes Dave Green produced and that they didn't live very long unfortunately. I have not been able to find much info other than that. Have there been any others that were produced, if so we're the results the same? Has anyone tried to produce one with other genes to see if the other gene somehow helps? If a breeding project could result in a 15% chance of a super champagne being hatched should the project be avoided?

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They are part of the Pearl (hidden gene woma spider, woma, sable) complex. So unfortunately 99% of them end up dying not long after hatching, and those that survive have severe neurological problems

If I recall, there have been other super champagnes that have been hatched with the same results and no one has tried adding genes to it as far as I know. The champagne is a homozygous lethal so it should generally be avoided. Even if the chance is slim there is always the possibility your entire clutch will be super champagnes and as a result, unviable. Though it is an extremely small chance of such a thing happening it doesn't mean it can't. Champagne to champagne should generally be avoided.

Super Champ is lethal none have been known to survive, and stacking up gene will not change anything just like it does not change anything in other mutations that have issues, multiple gene spider combos still wobble, multiple gene super black pastel combos are still prone to kinking and duck billing.

http://owalreptiles.com/issues.php

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Originally Posted by ajmreptiles

They are part of the Pearl (hidden gene woma spider, woma, sable) complex. So unfortunately 99% of them end up dying not long after hatching, and those that survive have severe neurological problems

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Where are the breedings to prove any of the morphs mentioned are in the same complex?

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Where are the breedings to prove any of the morphs mentioned are in the same complex?

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I misinterpreted the information I have believing it to be a complex but it does all come from Kevin McCurley.

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It does not combine well with morphs such as Spider, Woma, HG Woma, and Sable. The resulting combos generally arrive with fatal neurological issues. - Kevin McCurley on champagne The Ultimate Ball Python: Morph Maker Guide

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The next quote was during an interview on the Herp Herp Hooray podcast in which they were talking about lethal genes and Pearls in perticular
"I can breed it(HG Woma) to a champagne and make Pearls"

The theory is that they are allelic but the only plausible way to prove it, I think, would be to breed them to black heads and then breed those to normals because from what I've seen/heard black head and spider are allelic and spider is supposed to be allelic with the rest of those morphs. So yeah...

A simple allelic combo x normal pairing normally proves it, if not a few pairings do. I've never heard of any of the combos above proving that in some way.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

A simple allelic combo x normal pairing normally proves it, if not a few pairings do. I've never heard of any of the combos above proving that in some way.

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https://jkrballstreetjournal.com/201...-ball-pythons/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf3FG_QXEf8&app=desktop

From these two I gathered that spider and black head are allelic but without first hand experience myself I could always be wrong.

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Originally Posted by Seven-Thirty

https://jkrballstreetjournal.com/201...-ball-pythons/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf3FG_QXEf8&app=desktop

From these two I gathered that spider and black head are allelic but without first hand experience myself I could always be wrong.

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This is some interesting stuff. I was totally unaware of it. If I had to bet I would have said the this group of genes were allelic however I did not think there was a way to prove it. I didn't realize blackhead was involved in the mentioned grouping. This changes my though process a little.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

This is some interesting stuff. I was totally unaware of it. If I had to bet I would have said the this group of genes were allelic however I did not think there was a way to prove it. I didn't realize blackhead was involved in the mentioned grouping. This changes my though process a little.

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Yeah it's a really weird combination of genes in that it virtually negates both genes in a sense. There are distinct markers that distinguish a normal to a black head spider now that people know more about the combo, but it's still really weird that it even happens. A bumble bee black head doesn't look like a regular pastel though so there's that.

So, by what I am reading, not only is it a visual muting of the genes, the blackhead spider does not wobble. But when the black head spider produces a spider without black head the wobble is back. Time to get a black head and play. I have a killer bee female that needs a friend.

Champagne is a weird gene. I know sable mixed with the others generally create fatal births. I have two sable champagnes and they're perfectly healthy. No wobbles at all. So who knows I wish we'd of got more information about the Pearl but it doesn't seem worth the risk as the babies could die if you hit a super champagne.

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Originally Posted by Naraku

Champagne is a weird gene. I know sable mixed with the others generally create fatal births. I have two sable champagnes and they're perfectly healthy. No wobbles at all. So who knows I wish we'd of got more information about the Pearl but it doesn't seem worth the risk as the babies could die if you hit a super champagne.

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What about the champagne killerbee made in 2015. Can we get an update on it? Or does anyone know how it's doing?

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/mo...ne-killer-bee/

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Originally Posted by Bpsinked

What about the champagne killerbee made in 2015. Can we get an update on it? Or does anyone know how it's doing?

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/mo...ne-killer-bee/

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Best way to get an update is to contact the breeder directly Reptile-concept.fr

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Originally Posted by Bpsinked

What about the champagne killerbee made in 2015. Can we get an update on it? Or does anyone know how it's doing?

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/mo...ne-killer-bee/

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I'd highly advise against this breeding for the same reasons as was mentioned above. Even spotnose (which has a viable super form) when combined with spider produces unfavourable results. http://www.worldofballpythons.com/mo...ider-spotnose/


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Originally Posted by kxr

I'd highly advise against this breeding for the same reasons as was mentioned above. Even spotnose (which has a viable super form) when combined with spider produces unfavourable results. http://www.worldofballpythons.com/mo...ider-spotnose/


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I've heard conflicting reports on this one coupled with my own research on the spotnose spdier combo. According to Ben Renick, the spider spotnoses aren't any different from regular spiders in terms of loopiness. Also Ben Renick's spider combos don't look as wacked out as the leopard spotnose spider combos. I've also seen something called the nitro ball which is a bumble bee spotnose which looks closer to the leopard spider spotnoses justin has made. What I think happened in those cases are some sort of incubation or developmental issue. Or there could be somethinh weird who knows. I do know for a fact the powerball spider fails to thrive so we can rule out them being allelic.

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Originally Posted by Seven-Thirty

I've heard conflicting reports on this one coupled with my own research on the spotnose spdier combo. According to Ben Renick, the spider spotnoses aren't any different from regular spiders in terms of loopiness. Also Ben Renick's spider combos don't look as wacked out as the leopard spotnose spider combos. I've also seen something called the nitro ball which is a bumble bee spotnose which looks closer to the leopard spider spotnoses justin has made. What I think happened in those cases are some sort of incubation or developmental issue. Or there could be somethinh weird who knows. I do know for a fact the powerball spider fails to thrive so we can rule out them being allelic.

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Maybe it's just me being overly cautious but even before reading that I was kinda opposed to mixing neuro morphs. What Justin said confirmed my suspicions... Regardless of if that information is accurate I'd avoid breeding neuro morphs together. Something about it doesn't sit right with me.


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