Is this a common practice?

Pairing Father x Daughter, Son x Mother, Brother x Sister

Is this a common practice for breeding or should it be avoided? Does it cause any ill effects?

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Line breeding is common and sometimes a necessity. Many morphs started out as just a single specimen. It is not dangerous as long as you are breeding genetically healthy animals.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Line breeding is common and sometimes a necessity. Many morphs started out as just a single specimen. It is not dangerous as long as you are breeding genetically healthy animals.

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I always wondered what line breeding meant. I figured it would take a lot of time out of a breeding project depending on what your going for. What do you mean by genetically healthy?

It's very common especially when proving out a new morph.

Personally I wouldn't do it for more than a generation, but by then you should have half-sibs to pair.

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Originally Posted by chrid16371

I always wondered what line breeding meant. I figured it would take a lot of time out of a breeding project depending on what your going for. What do you mean by genetically healthy?

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If the potential mother or father is carrying an undesirable trait you would not line breed until the undesirable trait has been removed from the line. Lets pretend for a second that albinism is an undesirable trait. The trait does not manifest itself unless the animal carries two copies of the gene. So out crossing would be safer. Any inbreeding would increase the chance of the bad gene expressing itself. In a real world example, there are certain morphs know to have a high incidence of kinking. I would not line breed these animals because the heterozygous is safe but the homozygous is not.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Line breeding is common and sometimes a necessity. Many morphs started out as just a single specimen. It is not dangerous as long as you are breeding genetically healthy animals.

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Although common, it is still irresponsible (and lazy) if you inbreed JUST to save a few bucks. If there is nothing particularly unique or special about your animals and you're not trying to prove something out, there's no good reason to risk it.

Back in the 90's and early 2000's, many breeders had a nonchalant attitude about inbreeding that led to all kinds of problems in recessive morphs. Albinos were commonly born without eyes and aside from the spider wobble, I still almost exclusively see congenital neurological defects in "line bred" recessive morphs. Double recessives are often the worst because of how many generations of inbreeding are involved. There was a big movement towards "out-crossing" lines to the point where a classified ad would specify that the het for sale was out-crossed, and many breeders added years to their projects trying to out-cross their stocks.

I think the out-crossing movement was successful enough that now there are probably very few of you who have ever seen an eye-less snake being sold at an expo (discounted of course, reassured by the breeder that it's totally not genetic).

I'm not condemning anyone who chooses to inbreed, I'm just reminding (or informing) people that this WAS a big problem in the past, and it shouldn't be so casually forgotten.

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Originally Posted by Family Jewels

Although common, it is still irresponsible (and lazy) if you inbreed JUST to save a few bucks. If there is nothing particularly unique or special about your animals and you're not trying to prove something out, there's no good reason to risk it.

Back in the 90's and early 2000's, many breeders had a nonchalant attitude about inbreeding that led to all kinds of problems in recessive morphs. Albinos were commonly born without eyes and aside from the spider wobble, I still almost exclusively see congenital neurological defects in "line bred" recessive morphs. Double recessives are often the worst because of how many generations of inbreeding are involved. There was a big movement towards "out-crossing" lines to the point where a classified ad would specify that the het for sale was out-crossed, and many breeders added years to their projects trying to out-cross their stocks.

I think the out-crossing movement was successful enough that now there are probably very few of you who have ever seen an eye-less snake being sold at an expo (discounted of course, reassured by the breeder that it's totally not genetic).

I'm not condemning anyone who chooses to inbreed, I'm just reminding (or informing) people that this WAS a big problem in the past, and it shouldn't be so casually forgotten.

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Idiot breeders are NOT a reason to not line breed. Idiots are still idiots no matter how they breed. Knowingly line breeding bad traits is unethical. Smart line breeding has been done for at least a thousand years. It is the only way to fix a trait. I believe you are basing your opinion on how you "feel" rather than science and actual knowledge.

So, since my boy is a spinner blast (spider, pastel, pin stripe) I got my girl from an unrelated breeder in another state, an enchee firefly, (pastel, fire, enchee) to eventually breed to him. Will i be able to water down the spider gene. I would also love to pick up a coral glow female from an unrelated breeder, to give me enough of genetics to work with. Is this a good plan of action, since my house space is limited. As an retired dog breeder, i know the challenges of line breeding, and maintaining the best traits during outcrossing. In dogs any breeding you do using dogs related closer then cousins is in-breeding, line -breeding is cousins or niece, or nephew to aunt or uncle, and a out cross is no relation to any dog for at least 3 generations. The accepted practise is 1 line breed to 2 outcrosses, then a line breed then 2 out crosses, but this is in dogs not really nessecery in snakes, i guess, unless you want to bury a bad trait, like a wobble. Am i being over causious or is this a good practise, any suggestions would be helpful and opinions weighed carefully.

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Originally Posted by blue roses

So, since my boy is a spinner blast (spider, pastel, pin stripe) I got my girl from an unrelated breeder in another state, an enchee firefly, (pastel, fire, enchee) to eventually breed to him. Will i be able to water down the spider gene. I would also love to pick up a coral glow female from an unrelated breeder, to give me enough of genetics to work with. Is this a good plan of action, since my house space is limited. As an retired dog breeder, i know the challenges of line breeding, and maintaining the best traits during outcrossing. In dogs any breeding you do using dogs related closer then cousins is in-breeding, line -breeding is cousins or niece, or nephew to aunt or uncle, and a out cross is no relation to any dog for at least 3 generations. The accepted practise is 1 line breed to 2 outcrosses, then a line breed then 2 out crosses, but this is in dogs not really nessecery in snakes, i guess, unless you want to bury a bad trait, like a wobble. Am i being over causious or is this a good practise, any suggestions would be helpful and opinions weighed carefully.

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What do you mean "water down the spider gene"?

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Originally Posted by blue roses

So, since my boy is a spinner blast (spider, pastel, pin stripe) I got my girl from an unrelated breeder in another state, an enchee firefly, (pastel, fire, enchee) to eventually breed to him. Will i be able to water down the spider gene. I would also love to pick up a coral glow female from an unrelated breeder, to give me enough of genetics to work with. Is this a good plan of action, since my house space is limited. As an retired dog breeder, i know the challenges of line breeding, and maintaining the best traits during outcrossing. In dogs any breeding you do using dogs related closer then cousins is in-breeding, line -breeding is cousins or niece, or nephew to aunt or uncle, and a out cross is no relation to any dog for at least 3 generations. The accepted practise is 1 line breed to 2 outcrosses, then a line breed then 2 out crosses, but this is in dogs not really nessecery in snakes, i guess, unless you want to bury a bad trait, like a wobble. Am i being over causious or is this a good practise, any suggestions would be helpful and opinions weighed carefully.

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There is no watering. A snake is either heterozygous for spider or it is not. As far as we know there is no surviving homo version. The wobble is linked to the visual gene. No one has had any success reducing wobble through breeding. I can guarantee that any spider will wobble if put under enough stress. There are many threads on here about this. Understand all things spider before you breed them.

I'm sorry when we weaken a gene trait in dogs many of us call it watering or weakening the gene so there is less of a chance of it coming out. I guess it does not apply in snakes, especially since the spider gene is dominant. I guess what i mean is it will have less of a chance to come out. I do like the look of the spider, but don't want to chance having it come up too often. My goal is babies that are healthy, and have the best chance of a long life. I know we have the power to control just certain things, and its up to the universe to control the rest. My concern is i do the best in my power for my babies, because we certainly can't control mother nature.

From what I understand of the spider wobble is that every spider has some degree of wobble. Furthermore the amount of wobble seems to be random meaning a spider with little wobble can produce a snake with severe wobble. This also means that you can not necessarily reduce wobble by line breeding, but I have read some conflicting accounts on this. The wobble only affects spider ball pythons, so any non spider sibling will not have any wobble.

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Originally Posted by blue roses

I'm sorry when we weaken a gene trait in dogs many of us call it watering or weakening the gene so there is less of a chance of it coming out. I guess it does not apply in snakes, especially since the spider gene is dominant. I guess what i mean is it will have less of a chance to come out. I do like the look of the spider, but don't want to chance having it come up too often. My goal is babies that are healthy, and have the best chance of a long life. I know we have the power to control just certain things, and its up to the universe to control the rest. My concern is i do the best in my power for my babies, because we certainly can't control mother nature.

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I assume what you want is to breed the wobble out? Well it cannot be done all offspring with the spider gene in them, will wobble to a degree (anyone saying they have spiders that do not, have not produced enough spiders or are not paying close attention)

Now the degree is from very mild (hardly noticeable to the untrained eye) to severe, it can be severe as hatchling and lessen as they grow, or the opposite, other things may increase or lessen the severity as well such as stress, tempertures...

Severe wobbler can produce mild wobbler and vice versa.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

From what I understand of the spider wobble is that every spider has some degree of wobble. Furthermore the amount of wobble seems to be random meaning a spider with little wobble can produce a snake with severe wobble. This also means that you can not necessarily reduce wobble by line breeding, but I have read some conflicting accounts on this. The wobble only affects spider ball pythons, so any non spider sibling will not have any wobble.

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Just to be clear, spiders are not the only morphs to wobble. See http://www.owalreptiles.com/issues.php (thank you mr owal). Any time one parent has the spider gene you have a 50% chance of the offspring being spider. And once again, the severity of the displayed wobble seems to have more to do with stress than anything else. Severe wobble can be reduced to minor one and a minor wobble can be increased to a severe one all in the same snake with the right triggers.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Just to be clear, spiders are not the only morphs to wobble. See http://www.owalreptiles.com/issues.php (thank you mr owal). Any time one parent has the spider gene you have a 50% chance of the offspring being spider. And once again, the severity of the displayed wobble seems to have more to do with stress than anything else. Severe wobble can be reduced to minor one and a minor wobble can be increased to a severe one all in the same snake with the right triggers.

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You are right there are more genes that display the wobble, but I thought we specifically talking about the spider gene. I also assumed that op had a basic understanding of snakes morph heritability. I had not heard of the wobble being affected by stress, that is very interesting. Can you tell me where you read about this?

My boy is not a visual spider, but carries spider. My girl carries no spider, the only gene in common is pastel, the both carry that. I was hoping that this combination would lessen the chance of visual spiders in a clutch. He has no wobble.

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Originally Posted by blue roses

My boy is not a visual spider, but carries spider. My girl carries no spider, the only gene in common is pastel, the both carry that. I was hoping that this combination would lessen the chance of visual spiders in a clutch. He has no wobble.

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Your boy either is a spider or he isn't.. A spinner blast (Spider pin pastel) shows the spider gene. So thus he is a visual spider.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

You are right there are more genes that display the wobble, but I thought we specifically talking about the spider gene. I also assumed that op had a basic understanding of snakes morph heritability. I had not heard of the wobble being affected by stress, that is very interesting. Can you tell me where you read about this?

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There are tons of articles on the spider gene. That said, working with the animals in my own collection has shown this to be true. I would need a greater sample size in order to be scientific however I have not seen any evidence that refutes this theory. Anyone that has first hand evidence to the contrary is very welcome to present it.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

There are tons of articles on the spider gene. That said, working with the animals in my own collection has shown this to be true. I would need a greater sample size in order to be scientific however I have not seen any evidence that refutes this theory. Anyone that has first hand evidence to the contrary is very welcome to present it.

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Oh I wasn't trying to argue, just genuinely curious. I do not have any experience with the spider gene as I made the choice not to work with them due to the genetic defect.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

Oh I wasn't trying to argue, just genuinely curious. I do not have any experience with the spider gene as I made the choice not to work with them due to the genetic defect.

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Nope, I'm not arguing either. Sorry it came across that way. I am honestly as interested in being proved wrong as I am in being proved right. There is also a physical conditioning aspect to this thing that was brought to my attention by a dr friend of mine. I'm not talking to much about it right now because I definitely need a larger sample size. I did not breed any spiders this year. Next season I am probably looking at hatching out at least 10. I have never had hatchling spiders before. It will be a interesting because all of the animals will be under my control from day 1. In the mix I have 2 spiders that were train wrecks when I got them and who would now be classified as having low symptoms and one that has has to be very, very upset before she displays any symptoms.

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Originally Posted by blue roses

My boy is not a visual spider, but carries spider. My girl carries no spider, the only gene in common is pastel, the both carry that. I was hoping that this combination would lessen the chance of visual spiders in a clutch. He has no wobble.

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Than it's not a spinner blast, while that's a bit of high jacking the thread can you create a thread and post a picture of your male?

Edit, Never mind just had a look, you have a spinner blast (Pastel Spider Pinstripe) not sure why you think Spider is a recessive trait.

And yes he wobbles you just don't know what to look for.

Agree with ya there deb! My killerblast has the almost impossible to notice tiniest bit of wobble but it's there.


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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

You are right there are more genes that display the wobble, but I thought we specifically talking about the spider gene. I also assumed that op had a basic understanding of snakes morph heritability. I had not heard of the wobble being affected by stress, that is very interesting. Can you tell me where you read about this?

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Actually this thread had nothing to do with spider gene at all, just line breeding in general.

I never thought this thread would of went to a line breeding debate to a spider debate but it's all good. I do enjoy hearing both sides of the fence on these topics!

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Originally Posted by chrid16371

Actually this thread had nothing to do with spider gene at all, just line breeding in general.

I never thought this thread would of went to a line breeding debate to a spider debate but it's all good. I do enjoy hearing both sides of the fence on these topics!

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I know for some reason I missed that the thread was hijacked. I apologize if it went in a direction off topic.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

I know for some reason I missed that the thread was hijacked. I apologize if it went in a direction off topic.

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No worries! Like I said I find the wobble topic interesting and I understand why the thread kinda took a turn toward it. It was a little hijacked before hand but it's no big deal to me since I found the answer I was looking for.

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Yeah I threw a hijacked comment in there as well too Chris, I read them all but when it veered the wobble always interests me as well!


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