Het question

A bp can't be het for 2 genes only 1 right? Ill have my toffino enchi within a week and was messing around on WOBP just seeing the different morphs I could make with her (double recessive is complicated) and when it shows het albino het toffee it would be one or the other correct?

I'm a novice trying to learn when it comes to genetics so I thank you!

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Originally Posted by chrid16371

A bp can't be het for 2 genes only 1 right? Ill have my toffino enchi within a week and was messing around on WOBP just seeing the different morphs I could make with her (double recessive is complicated) and when it shows het albino het toffee it would be one or the other correct?

I'm a novice trying to learn when it comes to genetics so I thank you!

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A snake can be het for many different recessives, as long as they aren't allelic to each other.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

A snake can be het for many different recessives, as long as they aren't allelic to each other.

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Oh nice! Learn something new everyday lol. Since I have only ever seen bps advertised as being het for one gene I assumed that it was bc there could only be one. Thanks!

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You picked a hard one to understand double recessive. Toffino is of course het albino, het toffee. Both are on the same allele which is why you have a visual. If you bred this animal to a normal every animal would be either het toffee or het albino and absolutely no way to know which was which until they were bred.

Here is the URL to a helpful genetics reference that is a free download:
https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/primer.pdf

As ball pythons have approximately 20 thousand gene pairs, it is quite easy for a given snake to have more than one heterozygous gene pair and more than one homozygous gene pair. For simplicity, we ignore all the gene pairs that are homozygous normal (to the best of our knowledge and belief). We call the snake homozygous or heterozygous depending on which gene pair we are most interested in.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

You picked a hard one to understand double recessive. Toffino is of course het albino, het toffee. Both are on the same allele which is why you have a visual.

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Toffino is not a double het. A double het has two heterozygous gene pairs. Toffino has a single heterozygous gene pair made up of two different mutant genes. This called a compound het (see glossary link below).

By the way, alleles are different versions of the same gene. Toffee and albino (and normal) are alleles. Toffee and albino (and the normal version of the gene) have the same locus (location where they reside in the chromosomes).

Here is the URL for a genetics glossary: http://www.cancer.gov/publications/d...ics-dictionary

When you look up the definitions for homozygous and heterozygous, note that there is nothing about what a het creature looks like. A snake with a codominant mutant gene (like pastel) paired with a normal gene is just as much a het as a snake with a recessive mutant gene (like albino) paired with a normal gene.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

If you bred this animal to a normal every animal would be either het toffee or het albino and absolutely no way to know which was which until they were bred.

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This is correct. Because both a het toffee and a het albino look like a normal snake.

paulh, I agree with everything you say. I am at fault for trying to tailor my response to the audience. Very few of the terms we use in the hobby are correct and most of the time people are only interested in the end result. When I know I am speaking to someone that has read at least a few genetics textbooks my terminology and definitions change drastically.

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Originally Posted by chrid16371

.... I'll have my toffino enchi within a week and was messing around on WOBP just seeing the different morphs I could make with her (double recessive is complicated) and when it shows het albino het toffee it would be one or the other correct?

....

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You are half right here.

A compound het like toffino could look like a toffee or an albino or it could look different from both. In this particular case, toffino can be distinguished from both albino and toffee. The toffee mutant gene is codominant to the albino mutant gene.

A compound het snake with a lesser allele paired with a mojave allele is a blue-eyed white. It can be distinguished from a super mojave but cannot be distinguished from a super lesser. The mojave mutant gene is recessive to the lesser mutant gene.

Two alleles are classified as dominant/recessive/codominant based on the appearance of the heterozygous creature compared to the two homozygous types. A compound het has no normal allele in the gene pair, so how a mutant gene is classified compared to normal is irrelevant. When a mutant allele is classified against another mutant allele, the two mutant alleles must be named. Simply calling a mutant allele a recessive (or a dominant or a codominant) mutant means that it is recessive (or dominant or codominant) to the normal allele.

Wow that's a lot of information, I'm going to have to read it over a few times lol but that is good info, thank you!

In the particular case of the toffino enchi I'm getting would it's offspring be het for both albino and toffee or just one or the other? Does it depend on what its paired with?

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And to make matters worse, wobp seems to still think toffino is a double recessive, making their calc useless to use for you.

I think mine is the only one that does it right http://www.owalreptiles.com/genetics...21&0&pos&issue

Normally I refer people to morph market for gen calc needs but he still needs to set up the allelic recessives.

There are already visual triple recessives so there are also triple hets.

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Originally Posted by chrid16371

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In the particular case of the toffino enchi I'm getting would it's offspring be het for both albino and toffee or just one or the other? Does it depend on what its paired with?

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The answer absolutely does depend on the what your Enchi toffino is paired with. Remember that each parent gives each baby one gene from each gene pair. One gene from each parent reestablishes each gene pair in the baby.

You might try seeing the differences when using the OWAL calculator to mate the Enchi toffino to each of the following:
Enchi normal (= Enchi)
Enchi het toffee
Enchi het albino
Enchi toffee
Enchi albino
Enchi toffino
normal
het toffee
het albino
toffee
albino
toffino

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Originally Posted by paulh

The answer absolutely does depend on the what your Enchi toffino is paired with. Remember that each parent gives each baby one gene from each gene pair. One gene from each parent reestablishes each gene pair in the baby.

You might try seeing the differences when using the OWAL calculator to mate the Enchi toffino to each of the following:
Enchi normal (= Enchi)
Enchi het toffee
Enchi het albino
Enchi toffee
Enchi albino
Enchi toffino
normal
het toffee
het albino
toffee
albino
toffino

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She would be paired to a toffino pinstripe

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Pinstripe toffino male mated to an enchi toffino female is a genetics problem that requires 3 gene pairs to solve:

Pinstripe toffino male:
gene pair 1 = a pinstripe gene paired with a normal gene
gene pair 2 = two normal genes
gene pair 3 = a toffee gene paired with an albino gene

Enchi toffino female:
gene pair 1 = two normal genes
gene pair 2 = an enchi gene paired with a normal gene
gene pair 3 = a toffee gene paired with an albino gene

Answer (from the calculator at OWALReptiles):
Male: Pinstripe, Toffino
Female: Enchi, Toffino

Percent Fraction Traits
6.25% 1/16 Toffee, Stinger Blast (stinger blast is pinstripe enchi)
6.25% 1/16 Enchi, Toffee
6.25% 1/16 Pinstripe, Toffee
6.25% 1/16 Toffee
12.5% 1/8 Stinger Blast, Toffino
12.5% 1/8 Enchi, Toffino
12.5% 1/8 Pinstripe, Toffino
12.5% 1/8 Toffino
6.25% 1/16 Albino, Stinger Blast
6.25% 1/16 Albino, Enchi
6.25% 1/16 Albino, Pinstripe
6.25% 1/16 Albino
Expected fractions. The actual results may be more or less different from the expectation.

There are neither het toffee nor het albino babies in the answer. And as you can see, the result of a pinstripe toffino x enchi toffino mating is considerably different from the result of a normal x enchi toffino mating.

I'll have to play around on owal calculator. Idk if I'm going to breed in the future or not, I would like to at least hatch 1 or 2 clutches but if I'm going to spend money on a male to breed her with I want to make sure it's worth it.

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Originally Posted by chrid16371

I'll have to play around on owal calculator. Idk if I'm going to breed in the future or not, I would like to at least hatch 1 or 2 clutches but if I'm going to spend money on a male to breed her with I want to make sure it's worth it.

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Breeding is only worth it financially if you're willing to spend the money and have the jump on high demand. My plan is to start next year and what I'm hoping to produce are more for my collection and what I like to look at than anything.


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Originally Posted by BMorrison

Breeding is only worth it financially if you're willing to spend the money and have the jump on high demand. My plan is to start next year and what I'm hoping to produce are more for my collection and what I like to look at than anything.


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I don't see a lot of toffino out there. The toffino enchi I'll have within the week caught my eye and was something I needed to have but she came at what I considered a steep price, $1000. I want to at least hatch 1-2 clutches to see how I like it and where it goes, I really like the different morphs that I've seen with toffino in them. Breeding will be something I do for different morphs I want in my collection but the toffino is more for my curiosity but like I said I really like the different toffino morphs. I have the space and money for anything that comes up, I'll be able to save money on building racks since I'm handy and have access to $45 PVC. I'm not worried about making money. Nothing I have is old enough yet to breed but when they are I will have hatchling racks built, hot box incubator, and like I said I have the funds for vet bills and food along with supplies and anything else that comes up. The biggest problem I'm having is pairing, with the amount of morphs out there it is confusing when it comes to picking pairs. I'm fairly new so I still have a lot to learn about morphs/genetics.

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Originally Posted by chrid16371

I don't see a lot of toffino out there. The toffino enchi I'll have within the week caught my eye and was something I needed to have but she came at what I considered a steep price, $1000. I want to at least hatch 1-2 clutches to see how I like it and where it goes, I really like the different morphs that I've seen with toffino in them. Breeding will be something I do for different morphs I want in my collection but the toffino is more for my curiosity but like I said I really like the different toffino morphs. I have the space and money for anything that comes up, I'll be able to save money on building racks since I'm handy and have access to $45 PVC. I'm not worried about making money. Nothing I have is old enough yet to breed but when they are I will have hatchling racks built, hot box incubator, and like I said I have the funds for vet bills and food along with supplies and anything else that comes up. The biggest problem I'm having is pairing, with the amount of morphs out there it is confusing when it comes to picking pairs. I'm fairly new so I still have a lot to learn about morphs/genetics.

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Yeah I know what you're saying. Money also is not an object for me or any of that for what I want. I misread it a little, used to a lot of people jumping in and wanting to breed right off the drop not realizing you're typically gonna take a loss without an extensive knowledge of the market and what you need to accommodate that market.


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