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Florida's Snake Problem

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  • 06-22-2016, 01:12 PM
    Crowfingers
    Florida's Snake Problem
    I am currently finishing my last class in school and the final project is to write a research proposal on a subject that interests you, and I chose Florida's invasive snake problems. I originally wanted to do a study to find out what the wild population actually is and the impact that the snakes are actually having on the ecosystem by focusing on the 7 federally restricted species. However, I quickly realized that Florida really only cares about Burmese Pythons, and others are given very little attention in the scientific community. I finally figured out why. The number of Burms found/sighted is far more than any other species, with balls coming in second. To the state, only Burms are considered invasive (except for 1 small contained population of Boa constrictors) and all the balls are considered 'escaped' pets.

    *I also want to note that I love all animals and am not a fan of the "kill all the snakes that we find" mentality, but I also agree that these species should not be just allowed to populate indefinitely from an ecological point of view - it's just sad that there is no way to find them all homes and it's peoples fault that they are there in the first place.


    Anyway, I found this cool link that shows where each animal was found and the circumstances of the sighting if anyone is interested.

    http://www.eddmaps.org/florida/snakes.cfm


  • 06-22-2016, 04:26 PM
    Ba11er
    Never realized there was such an epidemic of invasive reptiles in florida. I have only heard about the burns. Hopefully a solution is found to remove these animals
  • 06-22-2016, 04:53 PM
    JodanOrNoDan
    Florida has become the pet dumping ground of the world. I live and work right next to the Everglades and I have been here on and off for around forty years. At any one time I can go outside and in about ten minutes find five species of animals that don't belong here. When you go fishing you are as likely to catch something from the Amazon as you are a native fish. The burms are a huge problem. They are now showing up in people's pools. I hate to say it but there is probably no solution to the burms. They are established at this point. There are documented cases of them eating adult gators and deer. These are not animals you are going to bring home and turn into pets. I love snakes, but if I see one of these running loose down here it is going to get taken care of. Most gators as long as they are not being fed by people have the sense to avoid humans. These burms on the other hand, just like most snakes, are opportunistic feeders. I hate to say it but it would not surprise me one bit if one of these guys takes out a kid.

    On a even more alarming note, a couple of Nile crocks were found down here not too long ago. Whoever released those deserves a special warm spot in hell.
  • 06-22-2016, 05:50 PM
    distaff
    VPI has some articles on the topic. Also, HerpNationRadio has an interview somewhere with a guy who goes down there with a permit to catch them. (I think it was that interview...) The conclusion from people that handle them is that they are wild animals again. They aren't your captive bred berms, and they don't make good pets. I think they would be dangerous around kids too.
  • 06-22-2016, 06:48 PM
    Crowfingers
    Re: Florida's Snake Problem
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Ba11er View Post
    Never realized there was such an epidemic of invasive reptiles in florida. I have only heard about the burns. Hopefully a solution is found to remove these animals

    Yeah, that's why I chose this subject. I was actually amazed that the burms are the only poster child for the invasive reptiles. You hear far less about the tegu and monitor lizards. I also find it a little disturbing that around 5 anacondas have been found yet some of the scientists are saying that this is not worrisome because they must be escaped / released pets since so few are found. In my opinion, the fact that any were found is worrisome, I mean burms will sun themselves by a pool and crawl around in the street, but I was under the impression that in a natural habitat anacondas will stay buried under the floating plants and are not as willing to be around people as the burms (I may be wrong about that though). So just because we can't see them does not mean they aren't there.
  • 06-22-2016, 07:24 PM
    Stewart_Reptiles
    While Peta, USFW and others would love to make people think that the invasive species issue is due to irresponsible pet owners this is NOT the case here.

    The Barkers have wrote very good articles about the subject http://vpi.com/publications

    So no Florida is not the world dumping ground for pets, no one travels down to Florida to dump their pet because they become too large, the destruction of a facility during an hurricane was the major contributing factor to the issue in Fl. The numbers are also far from reality just like the risk for other area and states have been GREATLY exaggerated by so called scientist.
  • 06-22-2016, 07:28 PM
    distaff
    Re: Florida's Snake Problem
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Crowfingers View Post
    Yeah, that's why I chose this subject. I was actually amazed that the burms are the only poster child for the invasive reptiles. You hear far less about the tegu and monitor lizards. I also find it a little disturbing that around 5 anacondas have been found yet some of the scientists are saying that this is not worrisome because they must be escaped / released pets since so few are found. In my opinion, the fact that any were found is worrisome, I mean burms will sun themselves by a pool and crawl around in the street, but I was under the impression that in a natural habitat anacondas will stay buried under the floating plants and are not as willing to be around people as the burms (I may be wrong about that though). So just because we can't see them does not mean they aren't there.

    Sounds about right on the anacondas. There is another episode on that show that has a scientist who studies them in the anually flooded Venezuelan llanos. Sounds like a big Everglades type wetland, albeit seasonal. He does have to wade in to find them. When he first started out, he relied on the locals to show him how to find them. Much easier and safer to study them there, than in the Amazon. Good interview.
  • 06-22-2016, 07:39 PM
    Crowfingers
    Re: Florida's Snake Problem
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
    The numbers are also far from reality just like the risk for other area and states have been GREATLY exaggerated by so called scientist.

    The lack of proper scientific data on the population size is the precise reason I chose this topic for my research proposal. We had to choose a subject that was interesting for us and in a field where more research is needed. I have read papers putting the population anywhere between 10,000 and 100,000 individual animals, but a real in depth study hasn't been done yet. I also want to correlate the most heavily populated areas with GIS environmental data to model what kind of terrain they might prefer as well as map the spread of the population following the 1995 Hurricane Andrew release and try and 'forecast' how far the population could realistically spread based on the natural history of the snakes themselves.

    (Since I don't actually have to convince people to give me money for the study I can make it as in depth as I want too, which is fun for me. The proposal also has to be a minimum of 15 pages, so the more variables I add, the better)
  • 06-23-2016, 12:19 AM
    Willowy
    Quote:

    no one travels down to Florida to dump their pet because they become too large
    I've heard people here say they took their pet snake/lizard/whatever tropical animal with them on their Florida vacation to let it go. . .I really have no idea HOW prevalent it is or how many of the captive-raised ones survived but it's definitely not true that "nobody" did it.
  • 06-23-2016, 02:46 AM
    Ba11er
    i would be interested in reading your finished research project. Sharing the information would be beneficial for everyone on responsible ownership and the environmental repercussions of invasive species.
  • 06-23-2016, 11:50 AM
    JodanOrNoDan
    Re: Florida's Snake Problem
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
    While Peta, USFW and others would love to make people think that the invasive species issue is due to irresponsible pet owners this is NOT the case here.

    The Barkers have wrote very good articles about the subject http://vpi.com/publications

    So no Florida is not the world dumping ground for pets, no one travels down to Florida to dump their pet because they become too large, the destruction of a facility during an hurricane was the major contributing factor to the issue in Fl. The numbers are also far from reality just like the risk for other area and states have been GREATLY exaggerated by so called scientist.

    Deborah, I greatly respect your opinion and I agree with you on many things, but on this one I am guessing we are going to have to agree to disagree. I am not a PETA supporter and honestly think they are a bunch of mouth breathing idiots. I am not a biologist or an environmentalist. I am a Texas born Florida raised tobacco chewing redneck who daylights as a computer scientist. This should pretty much tell you where my politics lie. That said even idiots can be right sometimes. Yes, there was a reptile breeding facility destroyed here during hurricane Andrew. I was here when it happened. There were many invasive species here before that. I wonder what those burms were being bred for? I honestly don't know but I would bet they were intended as pets. I also know of people that have released things that they shouldn't have. Many of the species may have been introduced from trade shipments. Are people driving and flying from all over the world to dump their pets here? I really doubt it but animals that were intended as pets come from around the world and somehow end up living in the everglades. I could open an exotic pet store and literally not have to buy a single thing. Want an iguana, jesus lizard, cuban lizard, burm, lion fish, oscar, paccu, convict, red devil ..... I can go on and on. I can get them all. I have spent a lot of time in the everglades with my kids, hunting, and military training. They are all here. They are established. I am not going to deny that fact or all the ways that it happened. I have seen it with my own eyes. Are burms going to invade half the US? No. That is fear mongering by the idiots. In my opinion we should be able to admit facts. It makes all our other statements more believable. We need to police our own and make sure we are not a part of the problem and become part of the solution. I want people to be able to own exotics. I don't want the government telling me or anyone else what I can and can not have.
  • 06-23-2016, 12:11 PM
    Snoopyslim
    Re: Florida's Snake Problem
    Crow - so cool that you chose this for your project, by the sounds of it you will do very well with it. I have always been interested in this as well and figured it would spark some controversy on the forum. As a Canadian, Florida has always seemed so beautiful and yet so dangerous! It amazes me how many creatures that could kill you live in one place but people might say the same for the bears and cougars in BC. Jo thanks for sharing your insight as a person that lives there. Do they cull the berms? Is it so bad that they can not be stopped?
  • 06-23-2016, 10:01 PM
    Crowfingers
    Re: Florida's Snake Problem
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Snoopyslim View Post
    Crow - so cool that you chose this for your project, by the sounds of it you will do very well with it. I have always been interested in this as well and figured it would spark some controversy on the forum. As a Canadian, Florida has always seemed so beautiful and yet so dangerous! It amazes me how many creatures that could kill you live in one place but people might say the same for the bears and cougars in BC. Jo thanks for sharing your insight as a person that lives there. Do they cull the berms? Is it so bad that they can not be stopped?

    Thanks, I'm learning a ton and would love to potentially pursue a job in the Everglades as a park education officer so I could teach people about the beauty of these animals as pets and that they get a bad wrap - while still explaining why they don't belong in the wild.

    And unfortunately they do kill the Burms. They actually have a yearly 'round up' where people that are skilled hunters / can recognize a snake are given a license to hunt and kill them. So far this is only for Burms, but some people can get a license to kill all 'species of concern' (not just reptiles - there is a whole list on the FWC website).

    From the reports, the second highest snake found in the 'wild' are ball pythons - mainly in populated areas. Some are even morphs...so either pets that got out on their own or pets that were let go (here's that link https://www.eddmaps.org/distribution/List.cfm?sub=22787 ), they have only been reported since 2008. You can click on each individual finding and read where they were found and the circumstances. At least with most of the balls it looks like they try and adopt them out if they are found alive. Most are normals, but there are some that are described as 'fancy' color. Some are healthy, there is at least one report of a gravid female that had been hit by a car, some are skinny, but all and all there are 200 found ball pythons spread all over Florida. So their is either a ton of irresponsible owners (whether through intentional release or from having cages the snakes can get out of) or there are enough balls in those areas that they are breeding.

    So far all ball pythons are considered by the state as released / lost pets so they are not being killed like burms, but they might not ever get to the 'hunted' status since they are not viewed as dangerous like the larger snakes and monitors.
  • 06-23-2016, 10:09 PM
    Crowfingers
    Re: Florida's Snake Problem
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan View Post
    In my opinion we should be able to admit facts. It makes all our other statements more believable. We need to police our own and make sure we are not a part of the problem and become part of the solution. I want people to be able to own exotics. I don't want the government telling me or anyone else what I can and can not have.

    I myself unfortunately know of two family friends that actually drove from Va to FL specifically to dump pets, both green iguanas. Now, this was done back in the late 80's or early 90's, so the invasive issue was not as well known...It makes me sad to think that people can just dump pets like that. Mine are part of my family and I would be devastated if they got out / got lost. There is NO way I could even consider that.
  • 06-28-2016, 10:37 AM
    MasonC2K
    Well, it's not entirely peoples fault on the burms. A certain early 90's hurricane contributed greatly.

    On a different but related note...

    Given the human races great talent of hunting/harvesting a species to extinction or near extinction, it makes you wonder why no one just says "Burm Hunting season is now open year round. Make and sale all the boots and purses you want."
  • 06-28-2016, 02:35 PM
    ginja ninja
    Re: Florida's Snake Problem
    From what I've seen on the news in the past, there's quite a few African rock pythons in the Everglades as well. There's also been a few tegus caught in Tampa this year.
  • 06-28-2016, 05:45 PM
    Crowfingers
    Re: Florida's Snake Problem
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ginja ninja View Post
    From what I've seen on the news in the past, there's quite a few African rock pythons in the Everglades as well. There's also been a few tegus caught in Tampa this year.

    Yeah, even with all of these other snakes being found, they only hold python hunts for Burms. I think that their version of animal control is supposed to respond to all exotic calls, but I don't know how successful they are at capturing them. There are also tons of green iguanas and geckos of various species that no one really seems to be doing anything about.
  • 06-28-2016, 06:00 PM
    JodanOrNoDan
    Re: Florida's Snake Problem
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Crowfingers View Post
    Yeah, even with all of these other snakes being found, they only hold python hunts for Burms. I think that their version of animal control is supposed to respond to all exotic calls, but I don't know how successful they are at capturing them. There are also tons of green iguanas and geckos of various species that no one really seems to be doing anything about.

    Honestly the chances of eradicating any of the invasives are very very low. For any one you see there is probably another 100 hiding. It is hard to find things in a swamp. The damage is done. We can only hope mother nature finds a new balance.
  • 06-28-2016, 08:49 PM
    Crowfingers
    Re: Florida's Snake Problem
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan View Post
    For any one you see there is probably another 100 hiding. It is hard to find things in a swamp.

    I agree 100%, no amount of killing the snakes is going to solve the problem, I guess this is also why no one has done any in depth studies on the actual population sizes too.
  • 06-29-2016, 10:17 AM
    4theSNAKElady
    Re: Florida's Snake Problem
    Please, do post your paper when youve finished it!!

    Sent from my SGH-S970G using Tapatalk
  • 07-04-2016, 10:46 AM
    lesserismore
    Re: Florida's Snake Problem
    A little off topic but Argentine Tegus are becoming an issue in my area and there are some great articles on the subject of it will help.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  • 07-15-2016, 05:54 PM
    se7en
    i thought there was no evidence that ball pythons were reproducing down here in southern florida
  • 07-15-2016, 07:04 PM
    bcr229
    Re: Florida's Snake Problem
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by se7en View Post
    i thought there was no evidence that ball pythons were reproducing down here in southern florida

    Even if they were, they're so small they're gator-food.
  • 07-15-2016, 08:55 PM
    Crowfingers
    Re: Florida's Snake Problem
    Several females have been found wandering outside / dead from being hit by cars that had eggs in them. So far, Florida does not consider them invasive, all ball pythons found (no matter age/gender/or reproductive state) are viewed as 'escaped pets' or at least nuisance animals, basically they are not banning them yet and also not spending money and resources on trying to remove them. They are not viewed as much a threat to the ecosystem as the Burmese. Also None of the other large constrictors get half as much attention as the Burms.

    Bcr's right though, balls are still small enough that most of the native wildlife is not at risk of being eaten.
  • 07-15-2016, 09:01 PM
    se7en
    well, let's hope there's never a BP ban
  • 07-15-2016, 10:22 PM
    John1982
    Re: Florida's Snake Problem
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan View Post
    Florida has become the pet dumping ground of the world. I live and work right next to the Everglades and I have been here on and off for around forty years. At any one time I can go outside and in about ten minutes find five species of animals that don't belong here. When you go fishing you are as likely to catch something from the Amazon as you are a native fish.

    I'm sorry to say, the whole world is a dumping ground - there are irresponsible people anywhere you care to visit. It's not just pets either but I'll try to stay somewhat on topic. The soapbox draws me nonetheless, I'm afraid. As for irresponsible animal keepers, just look at feral hog/cat/dog populations across the globe that are destroying flora and fauna at an alarming rate. South Florida happens to have the right climate to allow a great deal of exotics to not just survive but thrive. It's also a popular place for breeding facilities and hurricanes - not a great combination when you consider the ideal habitat of many of these critters is just a flimsy barrier or two away. I think it's a bit unfair to say Florida is the pet dumping ground of the world when pets are dumped just as often everywhere else - though in many of those cases they quietly die off and their remains are scavenged. It would be fair to say that South Florida is one of the few "perfect storm" locations where these exotic animals can create very real issues that need to be handled.

    Unfortunately, these reptiles make the perfect poster boy for fear mongering campaigns to add even more restrictive legislature because they are generally feared by the majority already. It takes minimal effort to convince folks that reptiles are bad and adding more restrictions is good, mmkay? In all, this is a Florida problem that should be handled by Florida and not used as propaganda to pass regulations elsewhere. I've personally lived in North Florida for my entire life and have been herping here almost 30 years. Besides some populations of brown anoles and cuban tree frogs - both a fair bit east or south of me - I have never encountered a non native herp in the field here. So, while you can and will find invasives just about anywhere, south florida's climate just happens to provide for a veritable smorgasbord of them.

    That said, while I'm generally against regulation for regulation's sake, I am all for accountability. Florida has some good ideas going and while it's not difficult to get a permit to own conditional species, those who do are now required to microchip their animals. The last time I checked, conditional species(afrocks, retics, burmese, etc) had to be microchipped if they were more than 1 inch in diameter. There are exemptions for breeders as long as they sell their babies before they reach 180 days(~6 months) in age. After that, anything over that size needs to be chipped with the pit tag numbers reported to FWC for their records.
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