Viv size?

Is a 20 gallon/2ft vivarium ok for a 4 week old BP (at the moment he is 85g and two weeks old) as long as I cram it with plants and decorations to help him feel secure?

You would be better off with either a 3qt or 6qt shoebox tub.
It hasn't eaten yet and putting it in something of that size will/may cause more stress and feeding issues.

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Originally Posted by Archer

Is a 20 gallon/2ft vivarium ok for a 4 week old BP (at the moment he is 85g and two weeks old) as long as I cram it with plants and decorations to help him feel secure?

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I would not recommend it, I believe I linked the optimal habitat for an animal that size, ultimately YOUR snake if you want to try and it fails and your BP refuse to feed and is stress than YOU will have to solve the issue.

I believe in preventing issues before they arise.

The thing is, I'm planning in using a ceramic heat emitter and am worried about it melting the plastic.
So far he has had no feeding struggles with the breeder (and will have had more than 5 feeds when I get him), and I'm not sure on how to maintain a correct ambient heat gradient in a tub of that size...
If I do get a 20 gallon and fill it with enough things, is there a chance he will still feel secure?

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Originally Posted by Archer

Is a 20 gallon/2ft vivarium ok for a 4 week old BP (at the moment he is 85g and two weeks old) as long as I cram it with plants and decorations to help him feel secure?

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Originally Posted by Archer

The thing is, I'm planning in using a ceramic heat emitter and am worried about it melting the plastic.
So far he has had no feeding struggles with the breeder (and will have had more than 5 feeds when I get him), and I'm not sure on how to maintain a correct ambient heat gradient in a tub of that size...
If I do get a 20 gallon and fill it with enough things, is there a chance he will still feel secure?

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Someone isn't telling the truth or is misunderstanding.......

I'm not quit sure what you mean by that...
The breeder (In the UK, and reputable) told me that the (currently 2 week old) BP has eaten 3 or 4 times and that he never sells a BP before its had 5 consecutive feeds (as I'm getting my BP in 2 weeks he should have fed another 1 or 2 times as the breeder feeds him every few days)... wheres the misunderstanding here?

I am not a breeder nor do I have tons of snakes, so I can only tell of my experience. I have kept mine in a 40 gal breeder since I got him at 130 grams and he has done amazing. I think it comes down to the snakes' personality. Some hatchlings will be more nervous / frightened and be better in a smaller cage, other may do fine. As long as you give him plenty of proper hides (mine had 6 when stating out), cover three sides of the enclosure, and add clutter he may be fine. If you find that he does not want to eat or paces all day then yeah, switch him to something like a tub.

Despite being told that ball pythons spend they're days hiding and are not active, my guy seems to really appreciate the space. I was also told that a 40gal was fine for an adult, but I would most likely have problems with husbandry and feeding. I've take the advice of all the great people on here and put my own twist on it. I've been figuring it out on my own, as this is my first snake. He hides like normal during the day and at night spends and hour or two cruising up and down his branches and exploring around. I also use a ceramic heat emitter (on a thermostat) and also a black heat bulb, I've never had trouble with heat or humidity.

I will say that using a tank is a lot more work, so if you can't check on the parameters multiple times a day then a tub may be best. In the winter I was having to re-dampen the towels twice a day to keep the humidity above 55 and three to four times a day when he was shedding to keep it above 70. Now that he is at 680 grams, he still has three hides and plenty of clutter and has only refused a meal once. I will admit that tanks are troublesome, and I will be getting a larger AP cage soon so that he can continue to have space to move if he wants it as he grows.

It is my personal belief that every animal should get the biggest habitat that I can afford as long as this does not negatively effect them. That is not everyone's belief, but it works for me. Just do what is best for your snake as an individual animal and he or she will be healthier for it.

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Originally Posted by Crowfingers

I am not a breeder nor do I have tons of snakes, so I can only tell of my experience. I have kept mine in a 40 gal breeder since I got him at 130 grams and he has done amazing. I think it comes down to the snakes' personality. Some hatchlings will be more nervous / frightened and be better in a smaller cage, other may do fine. As long as you give him plenty of proper hides (mine had 6 when stating out), cover three sides of the enclosure, and add clutter he may be fine. If you find that he does not want to eat or paces all day then yeah, switch him to something like a tub.

Despite being told that ball pythons spend they're days hiding and are not active, my guy seems to really appreciate the space. I was also told that a 40gal was fine for an adult, but I would most likely have problems with husbandry and feeding. I've take the advice of all the great people on here and put my own twist on it. I've been figuring it out on my own, as this is my first snake. He hides like normal during the day and at night spends and hour or two cruising up and down his branches and exploring around. I also use a ceramic heat emitter (on a thermostat) and also a black heat bulb, I've never had trouble with heat or humidity.

I will say that using a tank is a lot more work, so if you can't check on the parameters multiple times a day then a tub may be best. In the winter I was having to re-dampen the towels twice a day to keep the humidity above 55 and three to four times a day when he was shedding to keep it above 70. Now that he is at 680 grams, he still has three hides and plenty of clutter and has only refused a meal once. I will admit that tanks are troublesome, and I will be getting a larger AP cage soon so that he can continue to have space to move if he wants it as he grows.

It is my personal belief that every animal should get the biggest habitat that I can afford as long as this does not negatively effect them. That is not everyone's belief, but it works for me. Just do what is best for your snake as an individual animal and he or she will be healthier for it.

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How many 130 grams BP have you kept in 40 gallons tanks? And how many years of experience do you have with BP?

Sorry bigger is not better for BP it applies to other reptiles not them, what you believe and what is fact is very different.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

How many 130 grams BP have you kept in 40 gallons tanks? And how many years of experience do you have with BP?

Sorry bigger is not better for BP it applies to other reptiles not them, what you believe and what is fact is very different.

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That is why I prefaced the post with "I am not a breeder nor do I have a ton of snakes, so I can only tell of my experience". Just because it is not "recommended" it does not mean that people should be ridiculed for trying something new. I also finished by saying that if their snake is not eating/thriving in the 20 gal then the OP should use a tub as recommended by others. I also finished the post by stating that this is my personal belief. People come to this forum looking for advice and experiences from others, so I shared mine. What works for me may not work for anyone else. That does not mean that I am wrong.

There will always be a divide between breeders and petowners in some husbandry related issues. Providing the right temps, humidity, food, and security is an across the board issue, but the ways that is accomplished is *GOING* to be different from someone who has 1-2-3 snakes that are pets and someone who has dozens and is breeding.

The fact of the matter is, the breeders - because they need the animals to breed - are probably providing the absolute optimal conditions. Animals who aren't cared for and healthy don't breed. It is, IMO, the ultimate test for an animal that is thriving.

But that doesn't mean that pet owners are doing it wrong. You do, however, really have to find ways to compensate and make sure your animal's needs are being met. This includes security.

Personally, I'm a pet owner. My solution to this was a cheap 10 gallon tank when the snake was little, and some construction paper around 3 sides and some hides and extra clutter. My adult enclosures are 40 gallons (and won't be upgraded, both because of my space limitation and knowing what the snakes do (or don't) with the space). The construction paper is long gone, so is most of the extra clutter. They're nice, attractively decorated, glass enclosures that make me happy. WITHOUT stressing out the snakes; they eat, shed, eliminate well, and are docile and friendly snakes. I'm cool with that.

However, all of that said? If you have a BP doing serious cruising on a very regular basis I'd be suspecting something of being off, somewhere. That's not content/secure BP behavior.

At that size i would say a 20 gal tank would be ok, only if you give at least 3 hides, i have a girl in a 20 gal and when i first got her she was given 3 hides, and a water bowl, silk plants on the sides of her tank, and a humidity rock. clutter the tank and it will feel smaller. a UTH is best to provide belly heat, but always plug them into a thermostat. The UTH should only cover 1/3 of the tank. The heat lamp can be used for ambient temp control. I use glass exo-terra tanks for my BPs, and the only struggle in have is keeping the humidity up in winter, like november to april. Thats why i use humidity rocks and in dead winter a zoomed repti-fogger. Good luck with your new baby.

Ridicule? Hmm ok?

There is no divide I am a pet owner happening to breed some of my animals, not doing this for a living either.

There is a COMMON sense approach of preventing an issue rather than solving one, and setting a 85 grams hatchling in a 20 gallons tank is setting the animal up for failure and sadly feeding issue are not the only thing that can arise from a stressful enviroment.

It's a PROVEN fact that NO ball python feeding issue has EVER been solved with the bigger is better approach, that's based on experience not only as a keeper but also helping other troubleshoot their issues.

The bigger is better aproach does not apply to BP a little research in natural enviroment would quickly reveal that they like small, cramped dark enviroment.

I don't come here for people to do what I do or do what works for me, if they did first time owners would fail too, I am here to share what I know works regardless of you level.


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I'm not sure if this would help at all but it seems like the op is not necessarily opposed to using a smaller tub but is concerned about heating said small tub with a ceramic heat emitter.

So to offer a compromise of sorts you could construct a largish maybe 2*3*2 at a minimum wooden box and install the ceramic heat emitter at the top of the box. You could then place the snake in a 6 qt tub on the other side of the box not under the heat emitter. You would still need at least an on/off thermostat to controller the temperature, but you could just heat the box to 86 or 87 degrees or so. You would obviously need to monitor temps. It would look like this but without the light because heat emitters produce no light.
http://i1172.photobucket.com/albums/...ps2vkmhg4b.jpg

That's more or less what I'm talking about.

That being said it seems like it would be sooo much easier and cheaper and safer to buy a tub a little heat tape and a thermostat.

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I am not advocating bigger is better - quite the contrary , I actually said most people doing breeding are probably the ones doing the best job of it- I was offering a solution that doesn't involve going bigger/using a 10 gallon tank or someone who is interested in a kind of neat looking enclosure not having to upgrade 23 times or use a plastic tub if they, for whatever reason, hate that/can't make that work for them (ie: the CHE issue - I don't know, I don't use them, may be a non-issue).

Get a 10 gallon (or heck 5), grow out in there, upgrade straight to the ultimate size enclosure at 40 instead of putting the baby in a too big 20 gallon tank and upgrading to a 40 later. It's still 2 tanks, the 10 is cheaper than the 20, it's easier to clutter up and cover the sides of, and you skip the stressed snake stage with a hatchling in a huge freaking space so you get a snake who has had the opportunity to get some weight on it and establish itself feeding.

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Originally Posted by CptJack

T They're nice, attractively decorated, glass enclosures that make me happy. WITHOUT stressing out the snakes; they eat, shed, eliminate well, and are docile and friendly snakes. I'm cool with that.
However, all of that said? If you have a BP doing serious cruising more often than not? I'd be suspecting something of being off, somewhere. That's not content BP behavior.

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I totally agree. My boy is perfect in all things ball python. He comes out to cruise only at night (not every night either) and never for more that an hour or two before settling back in to a hide. As feeding day gets closer he gets more active. After eating he goes in a hide and does not come out for a two to three days at all.

I do know that people that have dozens to hundreds of snakes have perfected the husbandry to be as efficient at possible while still meeting the snakes needs, but I also enjoy a well decorated vivarium and being able to see my snake when he decides to come out, and it works for him. The breeders / large collectors are also doing what is best for their snakes and that is perfectly fine too. Because the tank is harder to maintain, I will be switching to the T8, just so he can stretch out more as an adult.

For the average bp bigger is not better but for my super pastel is a different story. He was in a v211 24x24x14 and would eat once every 3 weeks if I was lucky. I order v400 48x24x14 and when it arrived I set it up and put him in and he refused his first meal and ate every meal after that. I put a 213g killer bee in the v211 and has ate every meal since the day after I got her. I would consider her cage semi cluttered with 2 rbi medium hides, water bowel, fake plant, and a log. I even have 2 leopard geckos that wouldn't eat in there 20g and they started eating the day I put them in there 40g breeder, I tried to move them back and instantly off feed until I put them back.

Do not by any means expect these same results though.

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