Concerned about new Banana Ball

Hello everyone!

My name is Kara and I just registered to the site, I've done a lot of previous research on here though. :)
Well, I'm a worry wart in general, but especially about my new (juvenile) banana ball python, Tidus. My partner
also has a ball python, Cassie. So, I ordered him using MorphMarket and received him not long ago. I don't want
to specifically list which seller because he seems like a really great guy and I don't think he was trying
to do anything shady. Tidus was born in November of 2015 and he currently weighs in at 75G. From everything I've read
(and also knowledge from this awesome local guy who is trying to seriously help out), that seems extremely small and underweight.
The seller says that he was only being fed every two weeks and I'm fairly certain he said that's how he feeds all of his babies.
I was under the impression that they should be fed around every 4-7 days (up to a certain general weight). He's very well mannered and a handsome little guy
and I don't want anything to happen to him. We fed him yesterday, but we ended up having to assist feed him. He killed his prey (he did strike and latch on from the "wrong" end)
and then he couldn't seem to figure out how to eat it, though he gave it a good long effort. Right now he seems to be holding it down. Also, he is a pretty active one and he really
seems to love water. He sits in his water bowl, comes out of his hide when I mist the cage, and he'll occasionally just dunk his head under water and then come back up after a few seconds.
It's adorable. lol. :P Anyways, I would love and greatly appreciate hearing any feedback and maybe some advice.


Thank you,
Kara Aryana

P.S: He has zero interest in frozen thawed. We've tried several and he won't even acknowledge them.

[IMG]http://i68.tinypic.com/j8ctpf.jpg[/IMG]

First DO NOT Assist this animal any longer it's a huge step backward and there are a lot of things to do before doing this IF the animal does not eat, or is willing to eat on it's own which is not the case here.

Quote:

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and I don't want anything to happen to him. We fed him yesterday, but we ended up having to assist feed him. He killed his prey (he did strike and latch on from the "wrong" end)

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You do not assist because an animal eats backward.

If I take in consideration the age and weight than yes it would be underweight however looking at the body shape I am not seeing an underweight animal.

Here is what need to be done if not done so already.

Set him up in a 6 quarts tub

Use aspen as bedding

Provide a 6 inches flower pot saucer as a hide.

Provide temps on the warm side no higher than 88 degrees.

NO MORE HANDLING until your BP eats at least 3 to 5 consecutive time on it's own.

Once you made the changes weight a week

Offer a live small mouse in it's enclosure, close the tub, remove if un-eaten after 15 min.

99% of feeding issues are new owner/husbandry related and based on the fact that he is active, stays in his water dish I can only conclude that this animal is stressed because his needs are not met, this setup will help with that. Number one thing with BP is SECURITY


Tub

http://i954.photobucket.com/albums/a...lingSetup1.jpg

Hide

http://i954.photobucket.com/albums/a...iles/Hide1.jpg

I'm sorry if something came across the wrong way and if any clarification is needed, I will provide it.

WE DID NOT assist feed him because he had it backwards, we assist fed LONG after the prey
was dead. (We tried frozen a few times before live, he's only been fed live by the seller)

He tried many times to eat it and then he gave up. We covered the tank and left
him with the prey for a while. When we came back, everything was exactly how we left it, minus he was in his hide.

He's very long and very skinny. Also, his enclosure was set up before he even got here. He doesn't just sit in his water bowl, I'm not
exactly sure where or how that even came across like that. I was adding that he is active, like "normal", to get across that he wasn't not moving or whatever.

I feel like there's potentially some assumptions going on here.

Edit: Thank you

[IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/avotc1.jpg[/IMG]

Just to make sure, did you thoroughly check for mites? On the body, in the enclosure, around the eyes --- Could be absolutely nothing and him just liking to do that, but "bathing" is often trying to drown mites. Better be safe than sorry, doesn't hurt to check! :)

Hi Karyana :)

Grats on the new baby! He sure is a handsome devil.

As far as feeding FT - I prefer this, others don't, it comes down to your preference for your snake. If you really don't want to feed him live, there are quite a few tricks to getting them interested and I'm sure that you can find most of them on this site.
If you stick with it and find a trick that works, I'm sure he'll be fine.

I, too, worry like crazy about every single one of my snakes. Just try to get him on a regular schedule and hopefully he'll gain some weight. Most of the snakes I've purchased or adopted seem to be on the same 2 week feeding schedule, which I personally disagree with. I think that may be what they consider "maintenance feeding" - basically so shops and breeders can keep their feeding costs down.

Thankfully, he sounds happy and active - I wouldn't worry too much unless he's still unable to eat on his own after 2-3 feeds, but that's honestly just a guess on my part.

Best of luck to you and your new ball!

Hey!

Yeah, we've looked him over top and bottom for mites and I'm still keeping a close eye on him.
We're going to have the local guy also take a look at him, just to be safe.
He seems (happy) and all, I'm just really worried about his weight. He uses his hot and cold hide,
explores, etc. We're both thinking that he might just be odd and like water a little more than most. :P

I know Deborah was only highlighting the basics for setting up the enclosure and the proper things that need to be in place for the ball python to continue on and finish his meal. It's okay if he makes a kill and then for whatever reasons decides he doesn't want the prey item. What experience has taught us is that in that situation what we do is either abort the whole feeding attempt until the next scheduled feeding day or we can rewarm the already freshly killed prey to the snake one more time. Why? Because the python is making his own kills and therefore doesn't need to be assist fed. Assist feeding is a very stressful procedure on the animal and should only be done as a last resort. We know you mean well but don't let one missed meal make you resort to the extreme measures of assist feeding. :)

Hey Lady,

Thank you! He definitely is a looker. =P Our other ball, Cassie, is on frozen. But, she has zero issues with either one. She'll eat both with no hesitation.
We are probably going to breed feeders for a while, for a few different reasons. We've also discussed keeping him on live until his weight is up.
Once he's in a healthier weight range and we feel like it's safe for him to be stubborn, we are going to try and switch him over to F/T. My partner is also telling
me I need to stop mentally stressing out about it, he's taken his first meal and he's holding it down. Even though we assisted him, which we only barely pushed it
in his mouth and attached it, he did the rest of the work. I feel like that's a step in the right direction, as far as getting his health/weight up!

You don't assist feed every time it eats wrong and gives up. You need to give the snake time to settle in. Do exactly what Deborah says. She is very knowledgeable and is giving you the best advice so you can have a happy healthy snake. Assist feeding comes in when your snake is losing a lot of weight in a short amount of time. Yes your snake is young but it struck its food so it knows how to eat it just happened to take it the wrong way. Next time that happens don't jump right on assist feeding, this can actually cause stress and a regurge which can be very harmful to your snake. It will get it the right way eventually, maybe even next feeding.

Your tank seems big for a young snake. The hide on the right is very wide open and unsecure, you should have matching secure hides like the ones from reptile basics. Also tell us what your heat source is, what you take temps with, what your temps are, what you use to regulate heat source, humidity level, anything that could help us help you.

Also this is the care sheet, even if you have already read it read it again.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ius)-Caresheet http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ius)-Caresheet

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Hey Albert,

I didn't take anything Deborah said in a negative way, I just wanted to make sure that everything
was understood and clarified. I respect what everyone here has to say and I hope I didn't come off
as rude.

Also, I don't know if you meant what you said literally. It -wasn't- just -one- missed meal. We didn't want to assist feed because
we know it puts an extreme amount of pressure/anxiety on him. Again, we had our reasons of why we went ahead and did it. It's not
something we took/take lightly. We also didn't force it down his throat, we put it in his mouth and hooked it.
To add, we don't know if everything the seller is true, unfortunately. I know there were a few things that were definitely off and not
done in the right way. I guess that can be the risk of buying online.

Okay, so I don't know exactly how to stress this so it's understood.
I'm sorry to the people on here that we went ahead and assisted him in eating,
it was a decision that we made with his best interest in mind. We are also working
with a local breeder who knows the full situation and we moved forward with his feeding.
I 100% know that it's not something to take lightly and also that will ever be done frequently or
just on a whim because they don't eat. I'm not doubting anyone's knowledge here, I promise that,
and I am absorbing it. He's young and not a very good weight. Once again, we did NOT assist feed because
he struck the wrong way.

The larger hide is filled with bedding, and soon moss, to make it more "secure". He
spends a good amount of time in his hot hide. He also uses his cold side hide. He has an under-tank heater, the day time heat lamp, and the night time heat lamp.
There are gauges in there for the heat (hot and cool) and humidity. We are purchasing one of the infrared laser thermometers tomorrow so we can have even
more accurate readings on both of our snakes enclosures.

Should we offer him food again in about 4-5 days, like we plan(ned) on?

Also, if he kills but doesn't eat, can we freeze the feeder?

Can we refreeze an already thawed frozen feeder?

We just disposed of the frozen mice that he didn't eat because we were under the impression that it wouldn't be safe to refreeze.

Since he has eaten his first meal with us now, at what point should we become
concerned again if he continues to refuse? When do we properly move forward with
any other techniques? I sincerely value y'alls advice and knowledge. Again, we did assist him
under what we sincerely thought and believed was his best interest and I can only stand by it now.
He ate and he's holding it down. (Fed yesterday) We can't take what has already been done back.
But, we can gain more wisdom for the future. Please don't think I was being argumentative at all, that's not the case.

I am a little hormonal right now since my estrogen increase, I'm still adjusting. =P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Karyana

Hey Lady,

Thank you! He definitely is a looker. =P Our other ball, Cassie, is on frozen. But, she has zero issues with either one. She'll eat both with no hesitation.
We are probably going to breed feeders for a while, for a few different reasons. We've also discussed keeping him on live until his weight is up.
Once he's in a healthier weight range and we feel like it's safe for him to be stubborn, we are going to try and switch him over to F/T. My partner is also telling
me I need to stop mentally stressing out about it, he's taken his first meal and he's holding it down. Even though we assisted him, which we only barely pushed it
in his mouth and attached it, he did the rest of the work. I feel like that's a step in the right direction, as far as getting his health/weight up!

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I agree! Definitely a step in the right direction.

Oddly enough, while watching my daily episodes of Snakebytes, I saw this. I thought, aside from the Halloween bits, this would be helpful.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/9A0LhvhVZAY

Again, best of luck! :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LadyEnfinity

I agree! Definitely a step in the right direction.

Oddly enough, while watching my daily episodes of Snakebytes, I saw this. I thought, aside from the Halloween bits, this would be helpful.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/9A0LhvhVZAY

Again, best of luck! :)

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Thank you, again! :)

I'm going to watch this after I finish watching a video by HLH Reptiles. I never thought I would
love snakes as much as I do. After I met my partner and he introduced me to his Ball, it's like a whole
new world opened up to me. They're amazing. We have Cassie, Tidus, and a Bengal named Goku, it's a little exotic home. =P
But, I just want him to be okay, like any BP parent. I just have added anxiety issues. lol.

So, we're going to our first Reptile Expo (Repticon) next month. Anyone have experience with those?
Any tips on preparing? Maybe make sure to not come home with every snake/reptile I come across?!
Just kidding, I'll have enough self control to only get what's intended. We want to ensure that our animals are given quality
care and a loving home. We know that there's only so many that we can properly provide for at once, and we're at our personal limit right now (for now).

I'm sorry if I came off as rude as well, I wasn't trying to be. So many times people want to jump right on assist feeding when they have not taken other steps first but since you are working with a local breeder I will trust he told you to do this with good reasoning. Again my apologies.

Is your uth regulated by a thermostat or something? When you get the ir thermometer take the temp under the substrate on top of glass right where the uth is and if it is above 94 unplug it unless you have a thermostat or something to regulate temp then just drop it down. The reason you want to take the temp under substrate on top of uth is bc a snake can and will eventually burrow and can get burned. Since you have other heat sources you will be ok until you buy a thermostat. Those analog type thermometers are very inaccurate. Something good to use with your ir temp gun is an acurite 00891, it has a probe you can put under the substrate on top of glass over the uth and you can run the rest of the unit over to the cool side for cool temp and humidity. It's one device that will give you all of your temps and humidity at a glance and is very accurate and will be good to compare to the ir temp gun. You will want to take the temp of the heat bulb right where the middle of the beam hits the ground. You can use a regular lamp dimmer to lower the temp of the red bulb if needed. Remember you want your hot side to be around 88-90 and no higher then 94 under substrate on top of the glass that is directly over the uth and cool side 78-82.



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Two suggestions.....

Do not stress too much over ball pythons. As long as the husbandry is good they are on their own timelines. You will go nuts otherwise. Especially when it comes to feeding.

If you go to a reptile show, do not get anywhere near your animals when you get back. Your clothes should go into the washer and you should shower immediately.

Chrid,

You're perfectly fine, I was just confused and felt like I made a mistake by posting at first.
I can understand everyone being concerned and being stern about it. Again, I can assure
everyone that it wasn't a rushed decision and we have been working with a breeder. He is also
pretty concerned with his weight. But, he thinks it's good that it didn't take much assistance
to get the ball (haha) rolling.

The UTH is kinda small, it's my boyfriends previous one for his ball. It doesn't have one that I've seen.
It's one of the Zoo Med ones, if that makes any difference. Thanks for that advice, by the way. I didn't
think of checking that and I most certainly don't want him getting burned. I bought the Night Heat Lamp
because I was concerned about it getting too cool at night since he's higher up and closer to the homes cooling systems. (I over worry)
The night one is the blue/purple one that kind of looks like moonlight. It's 75W.
I'm a perfectionist and I want everything to be perfect. It's a fault at times.

Thank you. (:








Jordan,
You sound like my partner. lol. I'm trying to calm down and not worry so much. Only reason I even
worry about his feeding is due to his size. I know older ones can go off feed for long period of time and
it shouldn't be too concerning.

:)

I have owned all sizes of zoomed uth and they get well over 100 degrees even if don't think it would trust me they do. If you don't have the uth hooked up to the thermostat or dimmer I highly suggest you unplug it now before the snake gets burned. I'm sure no one even mentioned needing a thermostat to you until now so there was no way for you to really know. What watt is your night bulb? You can use that as your hot side heat source until you get a thermostat for the uth. You may have to raise the bulb a little bit to get it to proper temp or use a lamp dimmer. Idk what your budget would be for thermostats but here is a couple with prices....Spyder Robotics Herpstat 1 $140, VE-200 from reptile basics $115, VE-100 from reptile basics $85, inkbird itc-308 from amazon $40. The first 2 are proportional which means they hold a consistent temp, the last 2 are on/off which means once they get to temp they shut off and then drop a couple degrees and turn back on. The last 2 on/off styles I listed will only drop a degree before they start heating again. I listed them as the first one being the best choice and the last one being what your minimum choice should be IMO. Try to shoot for one of the first 2 on the list.

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One thing that might help make him feel more secure about eating is to cover the sides and even the front of the tank with something opaque paper or cardboard, SU that he can't see you. You can still peek around the edges to keep an eye on him while he eats, or just leave the room once you're sure the prey is dead. You can take the cardboard down the next day when you check to see if the rodent is gone.

Chrid,

Whoa, thanks for the information. I will definitely go ahead and unplug the UTH. That's kind of scary that it gets hot enough
to burn them.... (With it being Zoo Med) I'll look into the thermostat or dimmer ASAP, should be getting my first
check from my new place of employment soon. His night bulb is 75W, and so is his day light. I'll have a more accurate
temperature reading once we get that new thermometer (which should be in the morning). I'll be shooting for the
first two on the list too then.

May I ask your opinion of the newer heat rocks that are built to shut off (fail off) or go cold VS getting
too hot that it will burn them? We don't have any of them, we still thought they could be risky. I also
plan on getting some coconut husk to add to his bedding and moss for different places, hides, for moisture.
We're thinking about doing a homemade mister/fogger. Not to keep on 24/7, just once/twice a day as the humidity
gauge says.

Thank you!!!!!!!


Coluber,

Yeah! Thanks for the tip! :D
That is actually something that we tried on the last feeding. We used a blanket, only after we knew for 19954154% that it was dead.

Thanks! xD

Your night bulb will work good until you get a thermostat for the uth. It's kinda crazy they don't even say on the package or instructions that you need one. Even that smallest one is to hot without a thermostat.

Heat rocks are an absolute no. I'm glad you asked before you put one in!

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Obviously assist feeding is only for when weight gain or loss is an issue. Conditions are essential for successful feeding such as temperatures and adequate hide. I prepare my rodents by defrosting in warm water then changing the water to warm water before feeding. Then i warm the head of the rodent on a light bulb as this mimics a live rodent, this has always worked for me with even the fussiest of feeders. Asf's or multis are sometimes needed to get them started though.
As for the bathing thats a sign of too hot temperatures or possibly mites so check your hides belly heat temp (i use the happy medium 31.5°), and check for small black dots under the scales or the developed mites will be crawling about. I'm sure this probably been already mentioned but different things work for different people and this has worked for me for a long time 👍

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Just keep at it [emoji6] MOST bp's are fussy eaters! My male normal is a few times a year eater might eat 15 times the whole year then he'll go off for 8 months. Without significant weight loss make sure your husbandry is on point and the rest will follow.

I have a female Mojave that would eat every 45 minutes if she could she's an absolute hog, will eat during shed. The killerblast I have the breeder said he was the same way (very reputable breeder) and will eat the same as my mojo. But then there's my normal male, under my females weight by a TON and has a good 4 years on her. As long as they aren't losing significant body weight they're fine. Even if they start as little triangular noodles [emoji12] good luck!


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Have you tried asfs? I breed asfs, and usually when I have a snake that starts to refuse everything else I offer one of them. Im not gonna go over what everyone else has touched on....buuut I do believe something doesnt make sense to me.... hes about 7 months old, right? And even if he had been eating every other week at the breeders before you got him, he should look like skin and bones or almost dead at 75g right now. Some hatchlings weigh 75g or more right outta the egg! From the picture, he does look a bit lean,but not skin and bones. Is there a possibility that maybe hes quite a bit younger than what the breeder told you? Is there any way you could post a few more photos of him? Like belly shots, and him stretched out slithering?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by LadyEnfinity

Hi Karyana :)

Grats on the new baby! He sure is a handsome devil.

As far as feeding FT - I prefer this, others don't, it comes down to your preference for your snake. If you really don't want to feed him live, there are quite a few tricks to getting them interested and I'm sure that you can find most of them on this site.
If you stick with it and find a trick that works, I'm sure he'll be fine.

I, too, worry like crazy about every single one of my snakes. Just try to get him on a regular schedule and hopefully he'll gain some weight. Most of the snakes I've purchased or adopted seem to be on the same 2 week feeding schedule, which I personally disagree with. I think that may be what they consider "maintenance feeding" - basically so shops and breeders can keep their feeding costs down.

Thankfully, he sounds happy and active - I wouldn't worry too much unless he's still unable to eat on his own after 2-3 feeds, but that's honestly just a guess on my part.

Best of luck to you and your new ball!

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Just wanted to reply to this. My big female ball who is over 1700 grams now (336 grams February 2015) she hit 1500 by that December and was fed mostly every 2 weeks. It's not maintenance feeding. Some could argue feeding an adult a large rat every week would be over feeding. It all depends on the snake. I was also breeding my own rats and fed them very well so that could have played a part as well

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Karyana

Chrid,

Whoa, thanks for the information. I will definitely go ahead and unplug the UTH. That's kind of scary that it gets hot enough
to burn them.... (With it being Zoo Med) I'll look into the thermostat or dimmer ASAP, should be getting my first
check from my new place of employment soon. His night bulb is 75W, and so is his day light. I'll have a more accurate
temperature reading once we get that new thermometer (which should be in the morning). I'll be shooting for the
first two on the list too then.

May I ask your opinion of the newer heat rocks that are built to shut off (fail off) or go cold VS getting
too hot that it will burn them? We don't have any of them, we still thought they could be risky. I also
plan on getting some coconut husk to add to his bedding and moss for different places, hides, for moisture.
We're thinking about doing a homemade mister/fogger. Not to keep on 24/7, just once/twice a day as the humidity
gauge says.

Thank you!!!!!!!


Coluber,

Yeah! Thanks for the tip! :D
That is actually something that we tried on the last feeding. We used a blanket, only after we knew for 19954154% that it was dead.

Thanks! xD

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I made this video exactly for people like you who don't know how dangerously high these really get.

https://youtu.be/Rh7lRwA5tBU