Heating advice

Just wanted to pick everyones brain and see if my set up is ok or if i need some adjusting. My tank is set up with a UTH on the hotside, attached to a rheostat, with the hide over top of the UTH I have a thermometer probe mounted to the inside of that hide so it hangs just above the substrate which is aspen. I have a thermometer in the middle of the tank to measure ambient air and then another hide on the cool side with a probe inside that hide just laying on the substrate. On average the hot hide measures at 90 the ambient is 84 during the day with a little dip at night but the temp in the cool hide is showing maxed out at 78. The tank also has a 75watt red light heat bulb. My concern is that cool hide is too low the problem i have is when i cover more of the lid to keep some heat in the hotspot temp can jump to 92 or more and my rheostat is already turned down to the lowest possible setting. Looking for options to bump the cool hide temp a few degrees without over cooking the hot hide. Any and all advice welcome.

Do you have a picture of this setup? Sounds like maybe you have the thermostat probe in the enclosure instead of on the heat source?


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You need to monitor the temperature of the hottest thing your animal can touch.... That would be the glass UNDER the substrate.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h1...psp2koldrd.jpg

Pits famous diagram. Dead on.


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Originally Posted by BMorrison

Do you have a picture of this setup? Sounds like maybe you have the thermostat probe in the enclosure instead of on the heat source?

Correct its in the hide sitting just above the substrate reason for that is i put down a layer of a reptile carpet in the hide so that she cant burrow down and touch the hot glass. The probe however is literally just above the substrate like not even a half inch. When i had the probe directly on the glass it was reading 111 but the substrate was no where near that because of the layers.

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So if its 111 degrees then your heat source is too hot. You cannot prevent a burn if you don't properly regulate.

111 is if i lay the thermometer probe directly on the glass and cover it with the substrate. The actual surface my snake is touching and resting on is 90. That repticarpet is obviously absorbing and dispersing a lot of the heat. Im ok with my hot side my problem is when i try and warm the cool side the hotside temp climbs also and i cant really lower it because my rheostat is already bottomed out.

How do i add a pic??

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...-Post-Pictures

This is what you may have to deal with if you don't get your heat source corrected.
I'm not a prick because I want to be on this subject.
I am a prick because I have had to take snakes in and fix or put them down because people think they know more than they really do about heating.
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h1...psne0gktek.jpg

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Originally Posted by OTorresUSMC

111 is if i lay the thermometer probe directly on the glass and cover it with the substrate. The actual surface my snake is touching and resting on is 90. That repticarpet is obviously absorbing and dispersing a lot of the heat. Im ok with my hot side my problem is when i try and warm the cool side the hotside temp climbs also and i cant really lower it because my rheostat is already bottomed out.

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There are countless burn stories that start just like this. They can, and eventually will, find a way to end up under the substrate and lay directly on the glass. My recommendation is to ditch the carpet and instead use only a thin layer of cypress or coconut husk bedding. This will ensure the continued safety of your BP even when you're not around to make sure it's above the carpet where you left it.

EDIT: The cool side temp needs to be looked at separately from the hot spot temp. The purpose of the heat pad is to provide localized belly heat. It is not to raise the temp of the entire enclosure.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...-Post-Pictures

This is what you may have to deal with if you don't get your heat source corrected.
I'm not a prick because I want to be on this subject.
I am a prick because I have had to take snakes in and fix or put them down because people think they know more than they really do about heating.
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h1...psne0gktek.jpg

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Don't think youre being a prick at all I understand the concern with burns this is not my first snake. I think what I'm going to have to do is dump the rheostat and just put it on a thermostat. I suppose then I can crank whatever I need to for the cold side as the heat pad will shut off whenever it reaches temperature. I was hoping the rheostat at its lowest setting would be cool enough but doesn't look like that's the case. These zoomed UTH's just get too hot. Anyone have experience with those national geographic multizone viviarium ones?? Also if someone could tell me how to attach a photo that would be great:)

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Originally Posted by OTorresUSMC

Also if someone could tell me how to attach a photo that would be great:)

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The link to How To Post a Photo is in my last post and in your quote from my last post too.

apparently the pic I took is too large of a file wont let me upload it.

http://imgur.com/GXqIe8Qwhat the hell now I get a box with an x????

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...1/4/9/tank.jpg

EUREKA!!!!!!!!!!!!!! wouldn't work with Imgur but got it to work through Gallery. We can all now start ignoring this thread lol

You can upload a pic to something like photo bucket and then copy and paste the IMG link in your post and then it will show up.

The rheostat just needs to be adjusted lower. If the rheostat is at its lowest then yes you will need a different way to regulate heat. If you get a thermostat put the thermostat probe sandwiched between the uth and glass. As already stated you should be monitoring the temp under the substrate on top of glass and set it so the glass is no hotter than 94 IMO. No matter what heat mat you choose you need to regulate it. Your best bet is to keep that heat mat you have and get a thermostat. If you can afford it a proportional spyder robotics Herpstat 1, little cheaper is pulse proportonial ve-200 from reptile basics, little cheaper is the on/off ve-100 from reptile basics and then even cheaper would be something like an inkbird itc-308. I would get the best you can in your price range. For your cool side temps you may need to get a ceramic heat emitter and you can use your rheostat for that and dim to 80. If you cannot properly regulate the uth you need to unplug until you get a thermostat or something that will let you lower the temp where it needs to be. You can use a che or red bulb with your rheostat for hot side temp until you get the thermostat or you can raise the room temp so its around a constant 84 until you buy a thermostat. Another problem with rheostats is if the room temp changes they don't automatically adjust so you have to monitor your temps more closely, with a thermostat it will adjust to the change in room temp.

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Yea ive already ordered a thermostat. Its on the cheaper side but its gotten really good reviews by people using it on snake tanks. This may all be a moot point as ive had the snake 10 days and she still hasnt eaten. I only have 14 days to be able to return it so she may be going back to the store and replaced.

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Originally Posted by OTorresUSMC

This may all be a moot point as ive had the snake 10 days and she still hasnt eaten. I only have 14 days to be able to return it so she may be going back to the store and replaced.

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What??
Yeah if you expect it to be that easy without proper husbandry you probably should take it back.

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Originally Posted by OTorresUSMC

Yea ive already ordered a thermostat. Its on the cheaper side but its gotten really good reviews by people using it on snake tanks. This may all be a moot point as ive had the snake 10 days and she still hasnt eaten. I only have 14 days to be able to return it so she may be going back to the store and replaced.

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A bp not eating for 2 weeks after the stress of moving is not uncommon, and imo isnt a reason to return it. I just don't believe in taken something out of a pet store where most employees don't know much and then turning around and placing it back in that situation. Unless the snake is sick there's no reason IMO to return it and even then it would be hard for me to do that bc they most likely won't do anything. You need to make your husbandry spot on and then offer the appropriate sized feeder once a week, if it refuses you wait another week. Don't try to feed every other day that will only bring more stress. Not eating could be anything from improper temps to a hide not being secure enough so it is very important to ask questions and follow the advice given. Also posting pictures of your setup can be a huge help when your snake isn't eating.

Idk if you have read this but the link below is the care sheet, look it over once and then again and then again and make the necessary adjustments.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ius)-Caresheet http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ius)-Caresheet

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Originally Posted by chrid16371

A bp not eating for 2 weeks after the stress of moving is not uncommon, and imo isnt a reason to return it. I just don't believe in taken something out of a pet store where most employees don't know much and then turning around and placing it back in that situation. Unless the snake is sick there's no reason IMO to return it and even then it would be hard for me to do that bc they most likely won't do anything. You need to make your husbandry spot on and then offer the appropriate sized feeder once a week, if it refuses you wait another week. Don't try to feed every other day that will only bring more stress. Not eating could be anything from improper temps to a hide not being secure enough so it is very important to ask questions and follow the advice given. Also posting pictures of your setup can be a huge help when your snake isn't eating.

Idk if you have read this but the link below is the care sheet, look it over once and then again and then again and make the necessary adjustments.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ius)-Caresheet http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ius)-Caresheet

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Luckily they did have a feed record for it and it had been eating regularly so i was a little surprised. This is also my first time feeding frozen/thawed but thats what she was getting at the store so thats what i went with. I suppose i may be being a bit anxious about it but it was a $350 snake so understandably with only 14 days to decide on a return id like her to feed sooner than later. Ive owned 3 ball pythons previously and never had a feeding problem so this one is throwing me for a loop. I did finally manage to get a pic posted of my set up. Ill be sure and take a look at that link. Thanks for the info.

The way I thaw my f/t is run tap water as hot as it can, put rodent in leak proof bag, fill tub or pot with hot tap water, put rodent in leak proof bag in tub or pot, weight it down so the rodent stays under the water, thaw until no frozen or cool spots, take rodent and hair dryer and heat head of rodent while blowing smell into cage, offer while holding rodent with tongs. If you have an ir temp gun heat the head of rat up to 100 or a little more, if no temp gun heat head for a couple minutes. You can heat the body a bit but focus more on the head to give a good heat signature and a point of aim for the bp. Also make sure all lights are off, you should try to make it as dark as possible when feeding, getting a red bulb so you can see to feed is a good idea.

Yes I understand the cost of the snake but even if it was eating right away odds are it will go on a fast at some point and multiple times in its life. You need to be patient and getting one that doesn't eat from the get go is good practice. They say the reason a new snake won't eat it usually a husbandry issue. I would see if where you purchased would give you an extension do to feeding. Did you buy from a breeder or pet store? If you bought from a pet store I would see how long it took for them to get the snake to eat after they first received it. From a breeder that information won't help, usually they are in small secure tubs so moving to a bigger glass tank can be stressful alone, more clutter and dark secure hides can help with that such as the hides from reptile basics.

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Ok I just seen your pic. How big is the snake? That seems like a big tank. The hide on the right is very wide open and doesn't offer very much security. You should also have identical hides so your snake can't play favorites and will regulate body temp correctly. Like I said in post above reptile basics hides are the best IMO. They are very dark and secure and cheap! You would need one for each side. If you decide to buy the medium should be the smallest size you consider buying, the smalls are tiny. Depends on the size of your snake which one to get, you want them to be a snug fit so make sure to pay attention to the measurements. I highly recommend you order them from reptile basics. Depending on the size of the snake you may want to either buy a tub to house it in or make a divider to shrink the size of your glass tank.

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I'd switch your hide on the right side for one similar to the left. RBI makes the best hides in my opinion and they don't necessarily HAVE to be RBI brand because a few companies make them but I'd recommend getting 2 identical in your tank setup personally I only use 1 hide in my tubs because they're more secure so just having one isn't a big deal.

My male goes off feed for about 8 months out of the year. Always has and it's incredibly annoying. My female Mojave would eat every 45 minutes if I'd let her and has never missed a meal even in shed. Don't give up after 2 weeks. If your snake isn't losing SIGNIFICANT body weight he'll be fine with proper husbandry.


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Ok so thought i would post an update at need what my next step should be. Based on posts from those who replied i set the tank up with the heating pad attached to a stat. The probe for that is laying on the glass under the substrate. I have the hide over the pad with a thermometer probe in that hide over the substrate. I then have thermo/humidty one inside the tank on the far end of the cool side along with a third thermometer with the probe inside the cool hide. My temps on the pad are set at 89 so the stat kicks the pad on at 87 and off at 91 the probe above the substrate will read 87 to 89. The cold side im keeping at about 85. It does fluctuate a couple degrees with the temps of the day but i got a bigger heat lamp which is now helping keep it more controlled. I then waited a week since her last attempt at feeding. She has still yet to eat and it is now two weeks in. Shes straight up coils away from food and either curls up into her hide or takes off in the opposite direction. Wondering what my next option is, short of returning her, and when i should attempt that option. This is particularly frustrating given how much i paid for this snake and the fact that i have never had a ball python not feed. And this is by far the best set up i have ever had for any of my animals. Oh and based on the feed record from the store its been 22 days since shes eaten

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Originally Posted by OTorresUSMC

The probe for that is laying on the glass under the substrate.

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You do know fluids/urine will change the reading of the probe? That's why it shouldn't be inside.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

You do know fluids/urine will change the reading of the probe? That's why it shouldn't be inside.

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Well the pad was already attached to the glass didnt want to risk pulling off and damaging it so went inside under the substrate. Also just saw the last two posts. The snake is about two feet in length and i weighed her in at 383 grams if im remembering right. I was a little concerned this tank might be big for her right now so i like that divider idea.

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Originally Posted by OTorresUSMC

Well the pad was already attached to the glass didnt want to risk pulling off and damaging it so went inside under the substrate. Also just saw the last two posts. The snake is about two feet in length and i weighed her in at 383 grams if im remembering right. I was a little concerned this tank might be big for her right now so i like that divider idea.

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Just gently peel back the uth and push the probe in and then firmly push uth back in place. I have done it plenty of times and have even moved uth to different setups. You can foil tape the uth back down if your worried about it. Like Pit said urine, fluid, snake bumping it can all damage or change the reading and could run the uth way to hot and harm your snake. The only probe the should be under the substrate is the thermometer probe.

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Originally Posted by chrid16371

Just gently peel back the uth and push the probe in and then firmly push uth back in place. I have done it plenty of times and have even moved uth to different setups. You can foil tape the uth back down if your worried about it. Like Pit said urine, fluid, snake bumping it can all damage or change the reading and could run the uth way to hot and harm your snake. The only probe the should be under the substrate is the thermometer probe.

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I suppose i could give that a shot. Let me ask this obviously the temp on/above the substrate is going to be a little lower as it will disapate the heat so should i bump the stat to say 92 or just leave it where it is at 89? Also i dont know how much i have to really worry about it getting damaged as its actually a probe designed to be submerged in soil for plant beds, which obviously get watered. Its all metal and im assuming water proof.

It's hard to compare the safety of plants to the safety of a snake. But if the snake pooped on it then it would give the wrong reading and you would have take it out and clean it and if you didnt catch it right away the thermostat would not heat the same. Plus the fact if the snake does bump the wire and the probe is no longer sitting up against the glass then the thermostat would be heating the uth way to hot to try to get probe back to temp.

When you put the thermostat probe between the cage and uth you will have to bump up the the thermostat do to heat loss through the glass. Just take your temp inside under substrate and have it no higher than 94. If your not getting a temp of 88-90 om top of substrate thin out your substrate over the uth to get it to temp.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by chrid16371

It's hard to compare the safety of plants to the safety of a snake. But if the snake pooped on it then it would give the wrong reading and you would have take it out and clean it and if you didnt catch it right away the thermostat would not heat the same. Plus the fact if the snake does bump the wire and the probe is no longer sitting up against the glass then the thermostat would be heating the uth way to hot to try to get probe back to temp.

When you put the thermostat probe between the cage and uth you will have to bump up the the thermostat do to heat loss through the glass. Just take your temp inside under substrate and have it no higher than 94. If your not getting a temp of 88-90 om top of substrate thin out your substrate over the uth to get it to temp.

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Got it. Im going to be moving the tank into its own room so ill prob go aheadand make those adjustments once thats done. Im not optimistic thats going to make her eat tho. At what point does one decide to go the vet route and force feed??

Just keep tabs on its weight. If it is losing a lot of weight in a short amount of time then there is probably a health problem. Your not even close to needing to force feed, there is plenty of other options before you even consider doing that. You may have to switch to a small tub. Just keep offering once a week or even wait 2 weeks. Are you feeding the same prey and type as it was being fed before you bought I?

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Also make sure to leave the snake alone except for spot cleaning and changing water.

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Originally Posted by chrid16371

Just keep tabs on its weight. If it is losing a lot of weight in a short amount of time then there is probably a health problem. Your not even close to needing to force feed, there is plenty of other options before you even consider doing that. You may have to switch to a small tub. Just keep offering once a week or even wait 2 weeks. Are you feeding the same prey and type as it was being fed before you bought I?

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Yep. Frozen thawed size small. According to her feed record she was eating at least two of those once every five days.

F/t small rats?? How do you prepare them?

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Originally Posted by chrid16371

F/t small rats?? How do you prepare them?

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Small mice. Most recently i set it out to thaw and once thawed warmed it slightly with a heat gun on low.

Small mice are way to small. I would go to large. My 336g female can eat 2 large mice in one meal. Make sure to heat the head of the rat up around 100 while blowing the smell into the cage.

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Originally Posted by chrid16371

Small mice are way to small. I would go to large. My 336g female can eat 2 large mice in one meal. Make sure to heat the head of the rat up around 100 while blowing the smell into the cage.

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Yea i know theyre too small but i had already purchased a box of them when i picked her up since thats the size they were last feeding her. Likely why they have her 2 or three at a time. As ive already thrown out 4 of the 6 ill bump up a size for the next box. Course size is moot if she wont eat. I had even tried giving her live one time with a bigger mouse. She wasnt having it.

You may just have to move to a smaller tub. Try feeding ever 2 weeks and see if it takes a meal, if it does go back to a week.

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http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...1126_thumb.jpg
Well it only took over six weeks, and 40 grams worth of lost weight but she finally fed!!!!. Went into a shed at the end of june/start of july which obviously delayed things. Hopefully she eats steady from here on out. Ended up going live too. just didnt have any luck getting her to take thawed.