Female with eggs

Just got to thinking (always scarey when I do this LOL). Everything I read online talks about removal of the eggs from a female BP but what does happen if you don't? I can't find much on the natural process the female and her eggs go through so I'm just curious if anyone's ever just let "nature take it's course" and what happens?

Does the female stay wrapped around her eggs the whole time? Would she therefore not eat at all during this time? Is there an effect on the eggs as far as how many hatch out perfectly if mom raises them rather than in an incubator?

I know bigger breeders probably couldn't leave it to mom to raise these valuable babies, just wondering if any smaller "home breeders" had done it.

Thanks,


~~Jo~~

It worked fine the one time I've tried it. She didn't loose any of the eggs, the babies where all normal, and she ate very well after the extra 2 months on the eggs without food and produced eggs again the next year.

Oh forgot to ask....is there a commom term used for that....I think I read somewhere "maternal incubation"...is this the correct and common term for letting the female keep her eggs to hatch?


~~Joanna~~

Yea, that's the right term. :)
I saw a few people on Kingsnake did it, and they were professional breeders.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ginevive

and they were professional breeders.

---

That's a stretch.

Small timers aside, not one of the breeders producing ball pythons in significant numbers use maternal incubation.

-adam

I can't imagine most major breeders would bother with maternal incubation as I'm sure it's a less controlled environment for the eggs and especially if they were from pricey morphs you wouldn't want to chance anything. I was more asking about home/small breeders and just wondering if there was any issues to consider for both the wellbeing of the eggs and the female snake.



~~Jo~~

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by frankykeno

I can't imagine most major breeders would bother with maternal incubation as I'm sure it's a less controlled environment for the eggs and especially if they were from pricey morphs you wouldn't want to chance anything. I was more asking about home/small breeders and just wondering if there was any issues to consider for both the wellbeing of the eggs and the female snake.

---

I think that you answered your own question ... forget about any money involved for a second, if the people with the most experience in the world choose to use incubators for the best possible outcome when breeding ball pythons, why would a "home/small breeder" want any less chance of success? I know when I was just starting out, those normals that I hatched to me were just as valuable as any high dollar morph out there ... they were (and still are to this day) my babies!!!

Experiments with maternal incubation aside, why would anyone (big breeder or home breeder) put their animals through the stress of breeding and egg laying and not want to maximize their chances for succesfully hatching eggs?

Just some food for thought.

-adam

I see your point Adam but is it really that stressful for a female snake to do what is in essence her natural function of reproduction? I'm not disagreeing with anyone here I'm just trying to sort this out in my mind.


~~Jo~~

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by frankykeno

I see your point Adam but is it really that stressful for a female snake to do what is in essence her natural function of reproduction? I'm not disagreeing with anyone here I'm just trying to sort this out in my mind.

---

There is nothing "natural" about being housed in a tank/cage/rack ... captivity is stressful on ball pythons ... ball pythons do not get mouth rot, URI, scale rot with the frequency they do in captivity in the wild. These diseases are due to improper conditions coupled with the natural stress of being a wild animal in a cage .... add on to that being bred probably many many times more frequently than they are in the wild and then losing 1/3 of their entire body weight to the eggs and I'd say that yes, it is "that stressful".

I think that if you're going to keep these animals in captivity that you have a duty to go above and beyond when it comes to providing for their comfort and attempting to reduce stress .... letting a girl sit on eggs for 60 days when she could be eating and properly thermoregulating doesn't seem like you are "helping" mom with a good life even if it is her "natural function".


Just my opinion and opinions are like ... well, you know .... every bodys got one.

-adam

It sure is nice to see that there a breeders out there like Adam that put an extraordinary amount of effort into insuring that their animals get the best care possible. There are so many people out there just to make a buck and do just the minimum to keep their stock healthy.

I remember reading in an old (the first?) Vivarium magazine about Bob Clark hatching the first cb albino burms with maternal incubation (and getting bit checking for albino hatchlings). Does anyone here know if he still uses maternal incubation with any species and why or why not? I also read a report of someone in Florida who uses maternal incubation in their garage on what sounded like a large number of ball pythons and sprays the concrete down periodically to keep humidity up. I would think Florida would be fairly humid to start with so us non-coastal people would probably have to work at high humidity even more. Can anyone here confirm the details and identity of this Florida breeder?

It seems logical that the extra 2 months of feeding would benefit the female and that maternal incubation in captivity might be stressfully (I was instructed by a medium sized breeder who uses maternal incubation to only check in on the brooding female once a week). However I would still like to know if anyone has really done much of a study of it. Perhaps there are less apparent physiological or perhaps even psychological benefits to the female or even the babies. I haven't heard anything indicating hatch rates are any less - but again there isn't a lot of hard data.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandyRemington

Does anyone here know if he still uses maternal incubation with any species and why or why not?

---

No, he does not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandyRemington

I also read a report of someone in Florida who uses maternal incubation in their garage on what sounded like a large number of ball pythons and sprays the concrete down periodically to keep humidity up.

---

That's like searching for a needle in a haystack. Name?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandyRemington

However I would still like to know if anyone has really done much of a study of it.

---

LOL, now thats precious.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandyRemington

Perhaps there are less apparent physiological or perhaps even psychological benefits to the female or even the babies.

---

LOL ... suddenly I just had visions of someone standing in front of a Freedom Breeder rack holding up Rorschach ink blots. Too funny! :D

-adam

Okay, I am convinced as well that an incubator would be the way to go. Now, what would be a good unit to buy?

Make your own. Its simple and cheap!

Coleman/Igloo insulated cooler
Bricks and aquarium heater in the bottom with a thermostat probe
Water filled up to the top of the bricks (bricks on their sides)
Rubbermaid container with vermiculite/water mixture sitting on top of the bricks with thermometer in it
clear plastic/glass top for the rubbermaid for easy viewing

Thats it! Email me if you need more info. Mine worked perfectly for my first breeding season! 6 eggs, 6 healthy babies!


Jamie

...and then heat the water to the desired incubation temp? I can see how that would definitely keep the humidity up. I don't think I will have any eggs this season, but I want to be informed, and prepared when the time comes.

Well make sure that the thermometer probe is in the rubbermaid container with the vermiculite/water mix. That is where you will want the desired temperature to be accurate. It is irrelevant what the water temperature is.

good topic! vinni, call alot of breeders nerd,vpi,ralph davis and ask them how they incubate. go with what is proven for many years. just my opinion.


vaughn

Well being new I'm enjoying digging through the older stuff.

I've actually read quite a bit about maternal incubation and have talked to people who use it. I googled it a few weeks ago and came up with some interesting information.

http://www.jaymartinreptiles.com/articles.html

http://www.evolutionary-ecology.com/sample/iiar1858.pdf


Those links have the most interesting reading. Also, some other forums have information as well if you use the search function.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by frankykeno

is it really that stressful for a female snake to do what is in essence her natural function of reproduction?
~~Jo~~

---

LOL ask any mom if raising her baby isnt stressful just cause she knows how:rolleyes:

Haha wow this is an interesting conversation...I had always thought that snakes left their eggs as soon as they laid them, is that incorrect, or only true for certain species? I'm probably making a pretty big generalization =P

some snakes lay there eggs in something like a compost pile or somethin like that and just let the eggs incubate and everything by themselves. other snakes (like ball pythons) lay there eggs and brood them. and i know that both the king cobra parents actually guard the nest for predators, etc.

hey sorta of topic but ...are snkakes like chickens? like they make eggs even if theres no male, they just arent fertilized.

no, but iguanas do:)

Wow..This is an old thread! But, since it will still come up in the search for incubation, I wrote a quick little article on building an inexpensive incubator. Maybe it will be helpful to someone:

http://www.glassreptiles.com/articles/incubator.asp


Enjoy!

Jamie