Scaleless

Ok, so I am thinking about taking the plunge. Scaleless.... Next season is going to be my largest yet. I've doubled my breeding age females. My projects have pretty much surrounded the production of RELs. I should be producing them next season. I am trying to decide if chasing scaleless is worth it. Is anyone here working the gene yet? I have found very little information on the super. I think I may have seen three pictures and at least one of those animals is dead. Before I start pestering larger breeders that I know have the hets does anyone here have any more information or have an estimation as to how solid an investment like that would be? It could be the banana thing all over again.

bamp. b/c i would like to see more discussion on this.


i saw my first Scaleless Head last weekend. :) i think they're really cool but me, i will wait a long time if I decide to get one. i saw a bunch on Morphmarket awhile back and don’t see them listed anymore. i guess peeps are still scooping them up for really hefty prices tho. that said, i’m not sure how much a Super Scaleless would go for. but i expect a few Supers to hit the market this fall and quite a bit more next summer.

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Originally Posted by Ax01

bamp. b/c i would like to see more discussion on this.

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LOL. I would like to see any discussion on this. It is very quiet. Either no one knows of they are not talking. If I don't hear anything I'm going to try to talk to some of the people with stock. If it is still quiet I will stay as far away from this one as possible. It is a shame. Imagine a Lavender REL with no scales. A whole new level of worm.

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Originally Posted by Ax01

bamp. b/c i would like to see more discussion on this.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

LOL. I would like to see any discussion on this. It is very quiet. Either no one knows of they are not talking. If I don't hear anything I'm going to try to talk to some of the people with stock. If it is still quiet I will stay as far away from this one as possible. It is a shame. Imagine a Lavender REL with no scales. A whole new level of worm.

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no u are think big. Really Big! that would be what - a double Super and recessive?! i can't wait to see the day. :)

TBH some peeps are turned off by the whole scaleless thing. the one BHB kept and is currently breeding has missing heat pits and i think some are creeped out by it lol.

i think it's different and really cool, but my current plans are headed elsewhere for the high end stuff.

I think people are waiting to see more scaleless animals (supers) after all the rumors regarding the ones BHB hatched. Secrecy never helps either.

I know Winston Smith posted a photo a couple weeks back of a scaleless head female that just had her post ovulation shed. I also heard Florida Reptile Ranch had a female that was building nicely. I'm sure there are others out there as well that may produce this year. We should see some this fall.

It will be the banana thing all over again. Co-Dom is co-dom. 3 years ago I saw scaleless head offered at 50k. Now they're 5k.

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Originally Posted by DennisM

It will be the banana thing all over again. Co-Dom is co-dom. 3 years ago I saw scaleless head offered at 50k. Now they're 5k.

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The banana was unique because of the male makers. It was so easy to produce males and breed them to multiple females, the market got flooded with males pretty quickly. I think the scaleless heads price fall has more to do with the concern over the fully scaleless animals. The rumors were flying and the price fell. I think if the original scaleless animals thrived and we could see them in photos and videos the price wouldn't be where it is now.

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Originally Posted by Ax01

no u are think big. Really Big! that would be what - a double Super and recessive?! i can't wait to see the day. :)

TBH some peeps are turned off by the whole scaleless thing. the one BHB kept and is currently breeding has missing heat pits and i think some are creeped out by it lol.

i think it's different and really cool, but my current plans are headed elsewhere for the high end stuff.

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I think the saying goes something like "go big or go home". In my case it would be a double super, recessive, + maybe spider. A BEL i am working with has spider and so does one of my lavenders. Realistically speaking it is going to take awhile but we all have to have goals. The numbers gods may not have blessed me as much as I would like this season. An albino girl i was counting on may have reabsorbed. Really need an ultrasound.

I can understand why some would be turned off. It is, I hesitate to say, "unnatural". That in itself does not bother me, but unhealthy does. I'm going to keep looking for data. Until I get some the money is staying in my pocket.

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Originally Posted by DennisM

It will be the banana thing all over again. Co-Dom is co-dom. 3 years ago I saw scaleless head offered at 50k. Now they're 5k.

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Yeah, I saw one at <4k today.

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Originally Posted by Dave Green

I think the scaleless heads price fall has more to do with the concern over the fully scaleless animals. The rumors were flying and the price fell. I think if the original scaleless animals thrived and we could see them in photos and videos the price wouldn't be where it is now.

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As a businessman this is what concerns me the most. Maybe I'm wrong but something doesn't smell right. I can't see the reason they would allow the prices on the hetero's to drop this quick when all they would have to do is publicize the successes to hold the price up.

It is a shame. I really wanted to invest in something other than my REL project this year.

honestly there is so little out there...like lack of video, lack of documentation and didn't one of the first 2 die? the female? which i think also scares people...

you can see BHB's scaleless here in probably the only footage i've seen of it after the first.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVN6IIfMxfk

and thought this was interesting and relevant http://www.whsreptiles.com/whs-line-...eads-are-here/


post with pichttps://www.facebook.com/SnakeBytesT...2613604110507/

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Originally Posted by Dave Green

The banana was unique because of the male makers. It was so easy to produce males and breed them to multiple females, the market got flooded with males pretty quickly. I think the scaleless heads price fall has more to do with the concern over the fully scaleless animals. The rumors were flying and the price fell. I think if the original scaleless animals thrived and we could see them in photos and videos the price wouldn't be where it is now.

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True on both points. So maybe bamboo would be a better recent example of what happens to prices in the co-dom market. Of course if it's true that there are problems with homozygous scaleless, that's a different story.

I cant help but think something is rotten in scaleless town. 3 out of 4 known scaleless balls died prematurely. The dermaball, the scaleless one from Ophiological Services died, one of BHB's scaleless... plus no other news about anymore being produced???

Only time will tell but I am banking on "failure to thrive" issues with them.

I mean a hope not, I think they are just too stinkin' cute for words!

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Originally Posted by voodoolamb

I cant help but think something is rotten in scaleless town. 3 out of 4 known scaleless balls died prematurely. The dermaball, the scaleless one from Ophiological Services died, one of BHB's scaleless... plus no other news about anymore being produced???

Only time will tell but I am banking on "failure to thrive" issues with them.

I mean a hope not, I think they are just too stinkin' cute for words!

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voodoo one of the links i posted, WH ? i believe has produced some that have lived he seems to equate it to the variation level of the piebald gene of course his version of scaleless may be different but he believes under normal circumstances it should produce varying levels of scaleless he says he has one for sale might be something to ask him questions about if the OP is still even mildly interested

I think the micro scales from NERD are a interesting gene because of the missing pits!

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Originally Posted by WildLore

voodoo one of the links i posted, WH ? i believe has produced some that have lived he seems to equate it to the variation level of the piebald gene of course his version of scaleless may be different but he believes under normal circumstances it should produce varying levels of scaleless he says he has one for sale might be something to ask him questions about if the OP is still even mildly interested

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That's Winston Smith, he has produced scaleless heads but not scaleless animals (supers) yet. He does have at least one gravid female from scaleless head x scaleless head so we may see some scaleless soon. By the way, Winston is one of the best guys out there.

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Originally Posted by WildLore

voodoo one of the links i posted, WH ? i believe has produced some that have lived he seems to equate it to the variation level of the piebald gene of course his version of scaleless may be different but he believes under normal circumstances it should produce varying levels of scaleless he says he has one for sale might be something to ask him questions about if the OP is still even mildly interested

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The WHS site looked like it only referee to Heterozygous animals. Scaleless Heads.

From their site:

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There are two known lines of Scaleless Heads, the BHB line that Mike Wilbanks and Brian Barczyk are currently working with which proved last year to produce a healthy scaleless animal when the gene is in its homozygous form, and the WHS line which at the moment has only been produced in its heterozygous form that is phenotypically IDENTICAL with the BHB line.

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My concerns are issues with the supers. I've only found 4 reports of full scaleless balls online. And 3 of them perished at a young age.

Lots of genes across the animal world are safe in the singular but devastating when in the homozygous form. I'm wondering if that is the case with scaleless in regards to ball pythons? We probably won't know for years, 4 snakes is hardly an appropriate sample size. But maybe enough to give pause?

What I am really curious about is BHB. They had to have paired their Scaleless heads together since their first 2 hatched scalelesses. Brian B. Was way too excited not to have. Have they not produced anymore? Or if they have are they keeping it under wraps? If it's the later, why?

I just don't know.

Many years ago I knew a guy who was keeping scaleless water snakes and he had nothing but problems with them. They always had bad sheds and kept loosing bits of their tails to necrosis. I would think the humidity requirements for a completely scaleless ball would be very high.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Many years ago I knew a guy who was keeping scaleless water snakes and he had nothing but problems with them. They always had bad sheds and kept loosing bits of their tails to necrosis. I would think the humidity requirements for a completely scaleless ball would be very high.

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I would guess taking a cold blooded creature and depriving it of it'so main form of protection and insulation would mean everything we know about husbandry would go out the window. But I am not a scientist so that is just a guess on my part.

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Originally Posted by enginee837

I would guess taking a cold blooded creature and depriving it of it'so main form of protection and insulation would mean everything we know about husbandry would go out the window. But I am not a scientist so that is just a guess on my part.

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I also can't help but wonder the kind of sensory overload they may experience. If they still have the nerve endings without the scales, that must be like having your fingernails removed but all over your body.
Granted we will never be able to ask one but if they are failing to thrive there must be a reason.

I guess it would be a good Investment as everyone else needs to raise a female scaleless heads to produce the scaleless

Then there's this, BHB can shout from the roof top about the scaleless BP being a mutation, not a deformity, but it still won't make it true. Scaleless equals deformity, and I for one will never have one in my collection. I don't think I'm alone in that line of thinking. Just something to factor into your business plans...

I agree with slim, as humans that are controlling how these animals breed, we should not be propagating this kind of mutation / deformity. Scales are what makes a reptile a reptile and they have been a successful adaptation for millions of years for a reason. They are one of the earliest complex skin structures in vertebrates (amphibian / permeable skin like what is present in agnathans) and evolved long before animals came onto land. For something to be that successful and biologically important, we as breeders have no right to try and create organisms lacking it just because "they're cute".

IMO, this is not just true for reptiles. Breeding anything with an obvious and prohibitive deformity should not be as practiced as it is (i.e. snub-nosed dog/cat breeds). The animals are not as healthy and as a breed usually suffer more genetic issues than breeds that do not have as much selective modification.

I don't think comparing the market on the scaleless morph to banana or bamboo is accurate when looking at price, demand, and risk. I think this is more of a desert female situation. Here's why:

Initially deserts were hot, and no wonder - it is a cool morph and produces awesome combos.

But then... there were the whispers about the females having problems procreating, and as that story blew up over several months and it was confirmed that females can't successfully breed, prices took a nosedive.

A few breeders tried different techniques - keeping the female warmer or cooler, or gene stacking - to get females to successfully breed, but AFAIK those efforts were in vain. Today very few people want to work with the gene.

So, now we come to scaleless. Yes, it's cool... but the rumor mill about health problems has started and the project is still in its infancy. Most buyers - even those that could afford the loss - aren't going to throw away thousands producing snakes that don't thrive and can't be sold.

well, I have to admit that prior to this thread I was unaware of the rumors swirling around the scaleless gene (and I'm guessing OP was as well). naturally this results in a quicker decline of the price and should the rumors prove true, an equally quick exit of the morph from the hobby.

nonetheless, the fact is that co-doms have quick and precipitous falls in price. with so many breeding BPs on a small scale these days, the price declines are quicker than in years past. if someone is looking at a co-dom morph as business opportunity, it is my opinion that the current asking price for heterozygous scaleless is the about the worse possible entry point even if there are no issues/rumors. this is when they become affordable to more than a handful of breeders and they will be semi-common in 2-3 years. those semi-common single genes animals will be selling for 1K in 2-3 years. asking prices on single gene bamboo have fallen 75-80% in the past 3 years. of course there's still $ to be made if that's the goal. five 1k snakes will be break even on your 5K investment (all other expenses aside). co-dom combos and recessive hets will of course bring more.

Thank you everyone for the discussion. Just to be clear, my idea of doing sound business with balls is to be able to play and if possible not have it cost me too much. Serious effort to making real profits are focused on what puts bread on the table. A little of what Slim said and something that my buyer said to me kind of clicked together and I did not like the result. My buyer said "yeah, go for it people like weird stuff. i can sell them." I do not want to produce stuff just because it is weird. It has to be able to thrive (in captivity) and be able to be taken care of by the average buyer. As of yet, spiders are as close to the thriving line as I want to get. Even those I am hesitant to see sold to people that do not already have bps. So far the lack of evidence, the discussion, and the way the prices are moving point to too high a risk for a hobby breeder. I breed because I enjoy the animals and tinkering with the genes. I think this amount of risk I see in scaleless would suck the enjoyment out of it.

On their Facebook page WHS Reptiles has announced that they have produced a healthy scaleless clutch. The pairing was WHS Pastel Scaleless Head bred to another WHS Pastel Scaleless head, producing:
1.0 Pastel Scaleless
0.1 Super Pastel Scaleless
1.1 Scaleless Heads
0.1 pastel

It will be interesting to see those hatchlings grow up. Although viable or not I'm still not a fan of the scaless.

The price for scaleless heads just went up again lol they look pretty damn cool out of the egg but im sure alot of other people like myself are waiting to see how they age

https://www.facebook.com/34095564268...type=3&theater

I think the Scaleless are really cool looking. Whether to invest in them or not isn't a concern of mine, I can't afford them at any rate!

As long as they are healthy and eat and breed without issue, I would consider it just another morph. You can say "deformity" but other people still call ANY morph a deformity, like an albino. Some even claim albinos are blind and shouldn't be bred, just because they're an albino. So in ten years, I would expect to see the same attitudes for the scaleless.

If the scaleless do not thrive, then the morph will probably die back and people won't buy them. Right now I think a LOT of people are wary with even the rumor of this morph being nonviable. After the desert gene Females being incapable of producing, everyone will be on the lookout for what the next disaster is.

Saw this tonight:

http://www.morphmarket.com/c/reptile...=trait&epoch=0

BHB offering several super scaleless heads (scalelesses?) Up for sale between $2500 and $3000

But no pics.

I can almost convince myself to turn a blind eye to the scaleless emory intergrades, at least they have ventral scales. Just keep them in a padded room, away from sharp objects, and their life ain't much different than some of their scaled compatriots. I can't help but cringe when I see the scaleless royals though, that lack this singular amenity. Can they even move around like a normal snake without ventrals?

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Originally Posted by voodoolamb

Saw this tonight:

http://www.morphmarket.com/c/reptile...=trait&epoch=0

BHB offering several super scaleless heads (scalelesses?) Up for sale between $2500 and $3000

But no pics.

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I noticed this as well. Seems too good to be true. Super scaleless near the price of a scaleless head. Typo maybe? Maybe BHB is anticipating a flood in the market...? Grasping at straws here...

Either way, I think scaleless is an awesome looking snake.

I am still smelling something funny. No pictures on the morph market ones. "Low" prices?

Maybe the supers are priced low because they are worthless as breeding animals...

No scales means no spurs right? Can a lock take place if the male can't stimulate the female?

Guess that doesn't explain the low female price though.

I actually like the look of them. From what I understand they can live normal snakey lives as far as locomotion and what not.

I'm still concerned about failure to thrive issues though. I don't think anyone has gotten one to adult size yet. Premature deaths on 3 out of 4 prior to these new clutches...I wonder how many more have been born that breeders are staying quiet about just to see it they can get them to a decent size first???

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Originally Posted by voodoolamb

Guess that doesn't explain the low female price though.

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This is typical for a new gene/morph on the market. A male can be paired with multiple females, so if he has a brand new gene a breeder can make a lot of babies with that gene quickly. A female with a new gene will only produce a few eggs.

Eventually as more of that morph/gene gets produced and is available for sale, the price switches to where females cost more than males.

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Originally Posted by voodoolamb

Saw this tonight:

http://www.morphmarket.com/c/reptile...=trait&epoch=0

BHB offering several super scaleless heads (scalelesses?) Up for sale between $2500 and $3000

But no pics.

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Not supers just scaleless head, there are VERY few Scaleless in existence (BHB ones from 3 years ago, a male and a female and those that were just produced by Winston Smith) , trust me if when they are available they will not be $3000

Yeah, the snakes for sale on that link are all SCALELESS HEAD, NOT super scaleless. The title of the page says super scaleless, so perhaps there was one or someone simply misput the title in. The ads are all clearly labeled scaleless head.

No conspiracy needed.

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Originally Posted by voodoolamb

No scales means no spurs right? Can a lock take place if the male can't stimulate the female?

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Spurs are in fact made of bone, I believe; they're what's left of the snake's hind legs, now re-purposed as breeding implements, so I don't see why a lack of scales should mean a lack of spurs and an inability to breed as a result.

The very low numbers of scaleless animals out there though, considering how long scaleless heads have been around, and the frequent reports of premature death suggest to me that scaleless royals, unlike some other scaleless snakes, are sickly creatures with low survival compared to wild type.

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Originally Posted by voodoolamb

I'm still concerned about failure to thrive issues though. I don't think anyone has gotten one to adult size yet. Premature deaths on 3 out of 4 prior to these new clutches...I wonder how many more have been born that breeders are staying quiet about just to see it they can get them to a decent size first???

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How many breeders have scaleless head females up to size? I'm sure we will see many more in the next couple years but with the first of the new lines being produced 3 years ago and only 2 of those lines actually proving out (one only proving out a week ago), I don't see why you would expect many at this point.

Hello

I know that BHB 3 year old scaleless have. Nice! But, Sorry, Why no new picture ?!

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Originally Posted by Corallus

Hello

I know that BHB 3 year old scaleless have. Nice! But, Sorry, Why no new picture ?!

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Because he now has other endevours TV etc and I am not sure promoting or sharing his project is a top priority anymore, than again I guess not one as any obligation to post updated pictures however if you want a project to succeed it should be a no brainer. Last updates were pictures from Daytona 2015 where the animal was.

I think now the project will be better managed, and better promoted since other people are involved.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Because he now has other endevours TV etc and I am not sure promoting or sharing his project is a top priority anymore, than again I guess not one as any obligation to post updated pictures however if you want a project to succeed it should be a no brainer. Last updates were pictures from Daytona 2015 where the animal was.

I think now the project will be better managed, and better promoted since other people are involved.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

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many thanks. But have you photo from 2015 ?