Spider gene

This thread is probably old and tired, but here's the sitch: I want to make spider GHI mojaves. Do you think it's cruel/inhumane to pass along the spider gene, or nah?

This blog post by Justin Kobylka is worth it's weight in gold on this topic: Spending $ on Spinning Spiders... Silly?

I personally think it's unethical. Most arguments for spider gene animals and other wobblers are about how good they are for the industry, for breeders and morph enthusiasts. That really doesn't sit well with me. These are living things that we're creating, and people choose to make them with neurological disorders just because they're pretty and sell well.

I'm always amazed at how certain some people are that the wobble doesn't affect quality of life. I just... Look at them. The bad wobblers really really seem to be in distress to me. Not necessarily physical pain, but I imagine it would be very upsetting to intermittently lose control of your movements. They look so frustrated when they're corkscrewing.

In any case, despite individual feelings/perspectives on quality of life in spiders, the truth is that we cannot know for sure how they feel or whether they *suffer* from wobble, nor can we tell to what extent it bothers them. So, at the end of the day it's up to each breeder to decide whether they think the risk of suffering is worth it or not.

This ^^^^^^^^^^. However, what we do with the information we have is a subjective decision. I am on the fence when it comes to breeding the spider gene into any of my projects. Also, being a medical professional, i have encountered eppileptics and seizure patients and treated them. So, i tend to liken "the wobble" to seizure activity and as such has varying degrees of severity. It has to affect the quality of life. Mostly all seizures are treated with a medication. If it goes untreated, then for sure its even more complicated and compounded. Just my opinion. :cool: Hi Kaatje!

personally I think it's okay to breed spiders but the fact is that they do wobble yes, and majority of the time the snakes will thrive. Of course it is up to you whether odr not to breed spiders. You just have to be prepared to either care for the really bad corkscrewers if they are eating or cull them if the wobble is too much for them to handle.

in my experience with the wobble it's not as bad as people make it out to be. The videos you find on youtube, etc. are generally extreme cases of the wobble. another thing i've noticed is that the wobble only really manifests itself when handling or feeding. The wobble also tends to sort of look like something of a balancing issue to me as well. When any of my spiders are on the ground or have a platform to support their head, the wobble virtually disappears. It's only when they have their heads off the ground does the wobble manifest itself. This is usually during feeding and handling as stated before.

As for the really bad wobblers, I think it's up to the breeder on whether or not to cull them or not. Like I said, majority of the time spiders will do fine and thrive and be more or less normal snakes except for a little quirk. (That's putting it lightly I suppose but I'm just going off experience.) My stance is that if it can eat without any assistance it is a perfectly fine snake to me. I haven't dealt with any extremely bad corkscrewers so maybe my opinion on whether or not to cull will change.

another thing of note is that the original male spider did have a wobble and was thriving in the wild but to what extent i have no idea but i'm 100% sure it was thriving.

My final note is that I wish people would stop bashing spiders as a whole just because they wobble. There are some that are really bad wobblers and some that are relatively normal or manageable. There are so many people who condemn others who breed spiders and it makes me sad because most of the time they haven't even done proper research on the gene's history and how they actually handle. I was on the boat on that you shouldn't breed spiders before but after handling one my friend had, I immediately acquired two for myself. All three spiders had/have wobbles of various degrees with some more than others but they weren't corkscrewing really hard nor were they struggling to eat. To restate, the videos you see on youtube or anywhere else for the matter that showcases a spider wobble is more than likely an extreme case of the wobble. They are stunning animals and the wobble is just a part of them and it just so happens to vary from animal to animal.

Sprry for the long post, I have more to say about the spider but I don't have concrete evidence to back them up. I am really passionate about spiders and wishing the bad stigma with them would at least die down partially when people learn about the history of the gene and how it actually manifests itself.

if there's anything I'm wrong about or missed feel free to let me know xD

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Originally Posted by Seven-Thirty

My final note is that I wish people would stop bashing spiders as a whole just because they wobble. There are some that are really bad wobblers and some that are relatively normal or manageable. There are so many people who condemn others who breed spiders and it makes me sad because most of the time they haven't even done proper research on the gene's history and how they actually handle. I was on the boat on that you shouldn't breed spiders before but after handling one my friend had, I immediately acquired two for myself. All three spiders had/have wobbles of various degrees with some more than others but they weren't corkscrewing really hard nor were they struggling to eat. To restate, the videos you see on youtube or anywhere else for the matter that showcases a spider wobble is more than likely an extreme case of the wobble. They are stunning animals and the wobble is just a part of them and it just so happens to vary from animal to animal.

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This right here. :gj::gj:
All spiders wobble, the question is to what extent and can you notice it?

As far as turning it into an ethics debate...... The human race continues to breed. Think about it and look around you. ;)

@Pit, on ethics and human versus animal breeding: BPs don't have the intelligence/knowledge to realize that when they get put in a tub with a spider BP their offspring will be wobbly though. And even if they had the knowledge, they're reptiles and probably wouldn't care lol. But anyway my point is that we are artificially selecting them. Obviously, we can't control human breeding (well, we can try but it'd be called eugenics and very much frowned upon), but we can and do control BP breeding. There's a huge difference. I'm not gonna get into what I think about people who knowingly pass on genetic issues to their offspring because oh boy would that be a big derailment.

I don't mean to justify bad breeding ethics with... Well, more bad breeding ethics, but people bred pugs, boxers, mastiffs, Bulldogs, Pit bulls, and French Bulldogs into existence and ALL of the bully breeds suffer from horrible genetic issues including a proneness to hip displasia and respiratory issues. I mean, I don't condone breeding these dogs, but I'm just saying that if you are against breeding the spider gene, I hope you stuck to your guns and are against ALL genetic meddling such as this. I was on a buyer/seller review page the other day, and some commenters were BERATING a man for choosing to purchase a super butter with bug eyes. He got on and shot back that at least one of them probably likes or has a pug and thinks they're cute. SEVERAL of the Bashers came forward and admitted they had pugs, halfheartedly justified it, and continued to call the guy out on his choice

ALSO ALSO: if you're going to be against the spider gene, then you should be against all the morphs out there with issues like super butter, CHAMPAGNE (people love their champs) woma, caramels, etc.

This is still a issue going on?
Spiders have proven to feed, breed and thrive just like any animal. Some you can't even tell when they wobble some it's obvious, but it doesn't stop them from living out their life just like any other snake. If someone doesn't like that they wobble then they should just not buy one, but giving people trouble for keeping them is insane.


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Im pro choice on this topic. If you want to breed them, do it. If you dont like the idea, then dont. All of my snakes that I have or have had with the spider gene eat, poop, grow, and shed just fine. Being against breeding them because of the wobble is trivial in my opinion, when there are far greater ethics issues that people turn a blind eye to lol. But that is your right and CHOICE to be concerned about whatever you wish. :gj:

Yikes. OP asked people to share their opinions on the ethics of the spider wobble. I realize opponents of spider breeding are in the minority here but we still get to voice our opinions.

As for the cruel breeding of dogs, horses, goldfish, cats, etc., I obviously don't speak for everyone, but I for one am absolutely opposed to those too. I think animals with issues like brachycephaly, dwarfism, tissue outgrowths that prevent of hinder normal function, blindness and deafness, etc., should be things that breeders avoid instead of actively chasing after because they get a pretty and expensive clutch/litter/what-have-you out of it. Also you'll notice that in my very first comment on this thread that I even said "spiders and other wobblers". Maybe others aren't against those morphs/morph combos but are against spiders, but I am inclined to believe that it's because they don't know. After all, these things aren't even told to the people who buy from breeders. I've heard multiple stories of people who bought spider gene animals without being told about the wobble, and champagnes et al. are probably no different. Same with snakes that are likely to be born with painful or disabling deformities. But again, I don't speak for everyone and there are certainly some anti-spider-but-pro-champ/super-cinny/super-lesser people. Or whatever.

I will admit that I have not personally seen any of the bashing going on against spider breeders so maybe there is a part of some bigger picture that I am missing here so sorry if I sound confrontational. I just love animals with all my heart and I get very defensive on their behalf when it comes to things like this. Few things in this world get me worked up like brachycephaly or skeletal deformities in dog breeds. I just think of how easy it is to NOT breed for those traits.

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Originally Posted by cristacake

I will admit that I have not personally seen any of the bashing going on against spider breeders so maybe there is a part of some bigger picture that I am missing here so sorry if I sound confrontational. I just love animals with all my heart and I get very defensive on their behalf when it comes to things like this. Few things in this world get me worked up like brachycephaly or skeletal deformities in dog breeds. I just think of how easy it is to NOT breed for those traits.

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The bashing is everywhere, even here but those people tend to just stop coming here once they realise that most people here (correct me if i'm wrong) are "pro-spider" so to speak. There's nothing wrong with caring about animals and the unethical things that go on, that's perfectly fine. The thing is that the spider has gotten such a bad rep over the past few years mainly due to the internet and people not doing their research. As for he breeders who do not disclose the information about the wobble there are some who just assume a person knows about it by now or they are just the type of breeders that happen to be "bad" (giving them the benefit of the doubt)

The main thing about the whole "ethical debate" is the idea that simply breeding spiders is inheritly bad. The snakes, as stated numerous times by various people, thrive perfectly normal. Now it would be unethical to breed spiders and cull them at the very instance of a wobble which is what people used to do way back when. As for the whole "snake is suffering" thing, I have never seen a spider that had any signs of suffering if the husbandry was correct. Snakes are not like us and people need to understand that certain animals don't have the same quote unquote intelligence as us. A snake can't love you, but they do have the ability to learn and remember.

Now of course there are the "super" wobblers which NERD made of bunch of accidently when he found out that the pearls were really really dingy. In cases like that it's best to cull but in terms of spiders, a spider never comes out like that 99% of the time.

I feel like im being stubborn as well and there are probably many holes in my post but the spider debate really gets me riled up. (I use tumblr a lot and people are so quick to bash spiders without any research into it or its history) and as far as I know, the wobble hasnt been confirmed to be a neurological disorder only speculated. (i could be wrong and if so please correct me)

please feel free to point out any inconsistencies in what I've said.

Granted some can wobble so bad they need to be culled for the most part spiders are perfectly fine. If it truly stressed the animal, it would not eat. We all know bp's can be finicky eaters and any bit of stress can start a hunger strike. This leads me to believe it does not create any problems. To me it is just a neurological change equivalent to the physical changes in other morphs.
I think people don't fully understand the wobble and they don't like it for that reason. Truth be told a spider with average wobble would have better chance of survival in the wild than most of the morphs I have seen. So how can you say one bothers or is more detrimental to the snake than the other? How do you know being albino, solid white, solid black or any of the other colors out there don't negatively affect the "feelings" of the animal? You can't, all you can do is assume.
The closest I think you can get to communication with these little guys is guessing their stress level based on appetite and behavior. Most spiders I have seen are pleasant little creatures that eat as well as any other morphs.

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Originally Posted by cristacake

I think animals with issues like ..., dwarfism, ... should be things that breeders avoid ....

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Kiss Basset Hounds, Corgis, Dachshunds and a few other dog breeds goodby. :D

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Originally Posted by Seven-Thirty

I feel like im being stubborn as well and there are probably many holes in my post but the spider debate really gets me riled up. (I use tumblr a lot and people are so quick to bash spiders without any research into it or its history) and as far as I know, the wobble hasnt been confirmed to be a neurological disorder only speculated. (i could be wrong and if so please correct me)

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Ah, reptiblr. Yeah I get pretty frustrated with them too. I agree most of the major reptile blogs I saw (I have unfollowed the most annoying ones and stick to personal blogs just for the pictures) are very prone to just hearing about something one time from a biased post with bolded font and then broadcasting it everywhere with no research done. I definitely understand the frustration there. Most of them seem to have no idea what they're talking about, they've just been told spider=bad.

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Originally Posted by paulh

Kiss Basset Hounds, Corgis, Dachshunds and a few other dog breeds goodby. :D

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Why is everyone assuming I don't know how dog breeds are brought about? I really feel like I'm being talked down to here, is it just me?

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Originally Posted by cristacake

Why is everyone assuming I don't know how dog breeds are brought about? I really feel like I'm being talked down to here, is it just me?

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Dont know why people always want to assume they are being talked down to when others disagree or get enlightened about all the hyprocrisys in life.
You cant be aginst something but for another or in my opinion you shouldnt pick around and gather just what you like but not what you are against.

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Originally Posted by cristacake

I really feel like I'm being talked down to here, is it just me?

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yep just you :gj:

OP breed Spider if you like them, don't if you don''t, like many things spider wobbles is greatly exaggerated by people with limited experience, sure theré might be a train wreck here and there but I can tell you I never had to cull a single spider or spider combo, none were train wreck all were thriving.

And if you do not want to breed them by fear that one of your offsprings might be a train wreck than re-consider breeding all together because many things can happen when breeding, kinks, missing eye, severe under bites etc.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Dont know why people always want to assume they are being talked down to when others disagree or get enlightened about all the hyprocrisys in life.
You cant be aginst something but for another or in my opinion you shouldnt pick around and gather just what you like but not what you are against.

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I'm not sure I get it... Can you explain he second sentence? Are you meaning that one shouldn't approve of the breeding of some BP morphs, or some dog breeds or whatever, at the same time as disagreeing with the breeding of others? I want to understand. I'm starting to feel like there's something I'm missing here because almost everybody seems disagree with me on this spider thing.

You are missing it because its something you dont want to agree with. You are viewing it with a closed mind instead of open eyes and respecting others opinion.

Is Breeding Spider Morph Ethical=Politics IMHO. Tough topic.

I don't mind the idea of breeding specimens that look and act healthy(not knowing what exactly is going on neurologically). A slight wobble during times of excitement don't deter me from wanting to breed them. I, personally, would not breed if a specimen had a very strong wobble and corkscrewed even if it was the nicest snake I had seen. We do have to remember it is the male that inserts a hemipene into a female, we aren't actually forcing them to breed by means of artificial insemination, sperm collection, etc. So if a snake is able to eat, grow, mature to breeding age and then actually copulate then I believe it's all good.

Christacake, it's tough at times to see the other side when you are passionate about your beliefs. It happens to me on a few issues in this world. As blunt as you are with your opposition to breeding them, the other end is just as blunt. Always hard not to take offense to things. Keep on keeping on though! :taz: