Temperature gradient and heat sources: the never-ending headache!

Good god, so much conflicting information: depending on which source I go by, my enclosure conditions range from ideal snake paradise to Cambodian prison camp (Cambodia's tropical climate not withstanding). So let me put it to you, my friendly BP.net experts, my Cen American BC (male, 2 yeas old, 34 inches long, unknown weight but excellent body shape) is in a sterilite tub on its side (so top lid becomes front door). Fleece throw over the top, foam weather stripping along the opening (the foam worked like magic resolving my humidity issues) Measures about 33 long, 15 deep, 18 tall (inches). He's in the basement, reletivley cool low to mid 60's, but remarkably consistent, on a shelf about 5 ft off the ground. Premium paper towel bedding (thick 2-ply stuff). Approximately 10x12 Zoo-med UTH on one side, RHP about 12x12 80 watts (I think, I have to double check) attached to dead center of top (inside the enclosure). Both heat sources are on dimmers, UTH also into a thermostat as a failsafe. UTH usually running at 65 to 75 percent power, RHP at 90 to 100. The temp, all measured at ground level and in fahrenheit +/- 1 or 2 degrees.
warm side: 91
center: 80
cool side: 76
humidity: high 60's
Ive seen him all over the cage, lately he's pushed his cool hide into the center which is what got me thinking about temps in the first place. I have 101 crazy ideas for raising the ambient temp inside the tank (heating the basement is not an option) without using light bulbs or ceramic heat bulbs (too awkward, bright, hot, and energy hungry) but before I get all Thomas Edison I'd love t get some feedback from you all.

You guys? :(

TLDR??

ok - the abridged version: cool side 76, hot side 91, middle 81, humidity high 60's: am i killing my snake?

I can't say about the activity, but a t-stat would be much more consistent than a dimmer.
Do you have a second way to check temps, incase your thermometer isn't accurate?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by distaff

I can't say about the activity, but a t-stat would be much more consistent than a dimmer.
Do you have a second way to check temps, incase your thermometer isn't accurate?

---

temp gun is on order, for the time being I switch my thermometers around (3 of them) to see if the readings match- so far they do within about 1 degree +/-

Maybe I'm having one of my many blonde moments, but I don't see a problem here. Maybe I missed something.

You are offering heating options and it sounds like your Boa is using them.

Boas tend to be a more active snake than Balls. Don't expect them to be similar to a BP.

One of my Boas will sometimes move a lot. He is in different areas of the cage throughout the day. Other times he camps out in a certain area for a few days at a time.
He will not touch a hide.

My other boa lives in her water bowl toward the center of the cage, even if the bowl is empty. This makes me think that her bowl is her security blanket. She only uses a hide during shed. She absolutely never basks on her hot spot.

Each snake has their own needs and idiosynchrocies. Sounds to me that you are doing a good job. :)


Elenore, Common BI Female

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...97bc5555b0.jpg


Punch, Common BI Male
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...ee41f48a77.jpg

Thanks, Reinz. I think the real problem is that I am a bit of a worry wart, some guidelines I read say that a gradient from mid/high 70s to low 90s is perfect others say lowest temp should be in the low 80s and the high above 95. The only consistent thing that I read is that attemp only consistent thing i've read is that excessively low temperatures we need to any number of maladies🤒
Punch and Eleanor's seemingly random behavior definitely makes me feel a lot better, they are beautiful by the way and cool names too (no Judy?).
I saw a great picture you posted of Punch climbing a NordicTrack

There are a number of things that could be happening here but I'l list a few key things to look at.

#1:

You live in Jersey and guess what?? Your snake may be experiencing spring climate change. Boas have been hard wired over the last several million years to respond to environmental changes in the wild. It would make sense that these subtle and not so subtle changes are detected by them in captivity. This is the time of year where day and night time temps, humidity, pressure and daylight hours are all changing. Your BC will most certainly pick up on this even if you perceive everything is the same in their enclosure. My locality Colombian BC is fairly inactive from November until mid April. Once the seasonal changes come, he begins to respond.

#2:

Your boa is a male. If I read correctly, it is a C/A male and they often mature at smaller sizes and younger ages than some other BCI and BCC.
The moving around could be his quest for a female.

#3:

I'll list a few possible reasons here. First, your snake IS being fed properly and it is displaying some hunting behaviors. "Fat and happy" boas don't move much, and "fat and happy" is not what you want. If your doing a good job of feeding and not overfeeding, you'll see increased activity from your animal, because its system is clean and the metabolic cycle is complete. I personally want my BC to become hungry and work for the next meal. This is where a lot of people tend to screw up and feed too soon. You want your BC to be active and moving around for a bit before the next feeding. It is very healthy and natural. Being curled up 24/7 for 365 days out of the year and getting a meal on a set schedule isn't what Mother Nature had in mind.

Another part of this could be your animal is actually using the thermal gradient you are providing. The larger the enclosure, the more options your snake will have to use different climate zones. Your numbers seemed to be adequate.

#4:

Time for a new cage? This is hard to say. I can't see your setup, but I always prefer professional, plastic caging for BCs. They will climb and exhibit a lot of behaviors that you won't see in more restrictive types of caging. Don't get me wrong here as people far more experienced than I am have been, keeping and breeding boas is caging that I'm not interested in using.

Caging may not be an issue at all in your case but I'm including it.

I don't use a huge cage for my BC but I provide 20" of ceiling space and 4 feet of width and 30" of depth.

http://i772.photobucket.com/albums/y...a/IMG_2596.jpg

He uses it all.

Keep and eye on things if you suspect a problem, but Reinz was correct in thinking the temps seemed to be fine.

Feed conservatively, WAIT for all signs of the previous meal to be gone. Some people will feed a boa before it has eliminated its last meal. I disagree with that and feel it is unhealthy for the snake.

Buy a copy of THE COMPLETE BOA CONSTRICTOR by Vincent Russo and pay attention to anything written by Gus Rentfro on the web or in any text.

At this point, I would not be worried about anything. The first 3 things I listed are probably what you are seeing.

The last thing I will add. Buy a thermostat that allows you to control a night temp drop. A warm day can be followed by cooler night temps. Your snake won't be in eternally hot or cold conditions if you are letting temps dip at night.

Look at species specific literature too.

I completely understand your frustration with conflicting information online. First, I would say that about 50% of reptile information online is just plain wrong and biased, 40% needs to be taken with a grain of salt, and only about 10% is actually factually correct. The reality is that when keeping reptiles we have an enormous challenge to overcome, in that we need to artificially change heat and humidity, not an easy task. As you can imagine, depending on the region of the country lived in, and specific species kept makes a enormous difference in how information regarding reptile care is disseminated. I'm in Colorado, and I constantly battle low humidity, while someone in Texas or other parts of the south might have far too much humidity. Add into this multitude of options for enclosures and it can seem incredibly overwhelming to put together a respectable reptile habitat.

That being said, I wouldnt put too much stock into what others say is the right and wrong temp gradients or heating devices. The fact is that there are literally only two parameters that you need to achieve with most snakes: they must achieve a core body temperature of around 82-83 degrees, and humidity needs to be within the individual species given parameters The actuality of the situation is that snakes do not need a temperature gradient inside their enclosure. We as reptile keepers, limited by the tools we had available for heating and enclosures, used the gradient to essentially hedge our bets, and allow the reptile the opportunity to move between regions of cool and hot, finding that perfect body temperature. With the usual 90/80 hot/cool gradient split, the hot side overshoots the ideal reptile body temperature, acting really as a pool of heat the reptile can soak up, and then move off of when it has had enough time at an elevated temperature. So you can see that with the heat gradient model, if you charted core body temperature vs time, an oscillating wave pattern would appear, with the animal's body temp rising up and above the ideal temperature while the snake is on the heat pad, and then falling down and dipping below ideal while the animal is off the heat pad. To avoid being labeled an iconoclast I will simply say that this model has become the 'tried and proven' method employed by reptile keepers for years, almost based solely off of empirical evidence that the animals continued to eat, defecate, breed etc.

However, I honestly believe that with the advent of PVC cages, RHPs and the like, there is absolutely no need to provide the typical heat tape hot spot. Using one heating device is simpler, safer and more efficient. I personally have been using ambient heat only in my reptile room for many months now, and I feel it has made a much needed positive change. Granted, I understand that in your situation it isnt economical to heat an entire room just for one enclosure. I would recommend ditching the heat tape, keeping the RHP, and shooting for a constant and even 82-84 degrees inside your enclosure. Since i switched to ambient heat only, my snakes seem much happier, alert, active and friendly. Sheds are amazing and humidity stays right where it should. When you are ready to upgrade enclosures, grab an Animal Plastics t8 for your boa. They are perennially on sale for 150$, hold heat and humidity amazing.

Don't let all the shlock written on the internet about reptiles irritate you like it did me for so many years. People especially in the reptile hobby love the herd mentality, they latch onto some dogmatic line of thought, and then lambaste those who dont follow suit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gio

There are a number of things that could be happening here but I'l list a few key things to look at.

#1:

You live in Jersey and guess what?? Your snake may be experiencing spring climate change. Boas have been hard wired over the last several million years to respond to environmental changes in the wild. It would make sense that these subtle and not so subtle changes are detected by them in captivity. This is the time of year where day and night time temps, humidity, pressure and daylight hours are all changing. Your BC will most certainly pick up on this even if you perceive everything is the same in their enclosure. My locality Colombian BC is fairly inactive from November until mid April. Once the seasonal changes come, he begins to respond.

#2:

Your boa is a male. If I read correctly, it is a C/A male and they often mature at smaller sizes and younger ages than some other BCI and BCC.
The moving around could be his quest for a female.

#3:

I'll list a few possible reasons here. First, your snake IS being fed properly and it is displaying some hunting behaviors. "Fat and happy" boas don't move much, and "fat and happy" is not what you want. If your doing a good job of feeding and not overfeeding, you'll see increased activity from your animal, because its system is clean and the metabolic cycle is complete. I personally want my BC to become hungry and work for the next meal. This is where a lot of people tend to screw up and feed too soon. You want your BC to be active and moving around for a bit before the next feeding. It is very healthy and natural. Being curled up 24/7 for 365 days out of the year and getting a meal on a set schedule isn't what Mother Nature had in mind.

Another part of this could be your animal is actually using the thermal gradient you are providing. The larger the enclosure, the more options your snake will have to use different climate zones. Your numbers seemed to be adequate.

#4:

Time for a new cage? This is hard to say. I can't see your setup, but I always prefer professional, plastic caging for BCs. They will climb and exhibit a lot of behaviors that you won't see in more restrictive types of caging. Don't get me wrong here as people far more experienced than I am have been, keeping and breeding boas is caging that I'm not interested in using.

Caging may not be an issue at all in your case but I'm including it.

I don't use a huge cage for my BC but I provide 20" of ceiling space and 4 feet of width and 30" of depth.

http://i772.photobucket.com/albums/y...a/IMG_2596.jpg

He uses it all.

Keep and eye on things if you suspect a problem, but Reinz was correct in thinking the temps seemed to be fine.

Feed conservatively, WAIT for all signs of the previous meal to be gone. Some people will feed a boa before it has eliminated its last meal. I disagree with that and feel it is unhealthy for the snake.

Buy a copy of THE COMPLETE BOA CONSTRICTOR by Vincent Russo and pay attention to anything written by Gus Rentfro on the web or in any text.

At this point, I would not be worried about anything. The first 3 things I listed are probably what you are seeing.

The last thing I will add. Buy a thermostat that allows you to control a night temp drop. A warm day can be followed by cooler night temps. Your snake won't be in eternally hot or cold conditions if you are letting temps dip at night.

Look at species specific literature too.

---

Gio, thank you so much for the thorough response let me attempt to reply in kind.
1: Very interesting – I've only had him since early March so it's hard to accurately note patterns of behavior – but I will definitely start logging his activity levels along with his other processes (eating, eliminating, shedding, etc)

2: Hmmm, well there's not much I can really do about that. The family dog used to have a deflated soccerball that he would use for… "courting", I don't suppose there's a snake equivalent for that kind of thing ;P

3: this is another topic of much debate it seems. I am totally of the less is more School of thought in terms of feeding; my only reservation is that at two years old he still has a bit of growing to do before he hits his adult size and while I certainly don't want to power feed him to grow him faster I don't want to stunt him either. I think you and I may have actually had this discussion on one of my previous posts? For the time being I have him on a 14 day feeding schedule on the smallest small rats I can find. I figure when he's three I will really start spacing out the meals leting him poop and get a little hungry. - unless you think that would be really bad! -

4: I think his cage size is fine for now, though not terribly attractive, it's pretty tall for a little guy like him sometimes I worry that there's too much open space and he gets nervous some more interesting furniture might benefit him. One of his hides is very climbable (one of those resin Mayan temples from the pet store) and he has a half decent piece of driftwood, but I'm sure I can improve upon it. I'm sort of waiting to build more impressive enclosure for him once I've really mastered all this husbandry stuff. His current set up though adequate is riddled with the evidence of my learning curve. You're tank looks amazing. I will post a picture of mine a little later when I get the chance

Vince book is going to be my Father's Day present, I think. I got a copy of "the boa constrictor manual" by De Vosjoli. It was OK, but much lighter than I was looking for and, to be honest, is what got me all concerned about temperatures because he prescribes a higher gradient and I am using. Also prescribes a more vigorous feeding schedule, but again, I am inclined to be a bit more conservative.

On a separate note, today I took him out of his tank after his post-meal 72 hour waiting period (Always the longest three days) and for the first time he actually slithered out to greet me and moved right into my hands. Usually I sort of have to chase him across the tank a little bit and let him settle in my hands, but today I dare say he had actually missed me or whatever the snake version of that feeling is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoshSloane

I completely understand your frustration with conflicting information online. First, I would say that about 50% of reptile information online is just plain wrong and biased, 40% needs to be taken with a grain of salt, and only about 10% is actually factually correct. The reality is that when keeping reptiles we have an enormous challenge to overcome, in that we need to artificially change heat and humidity, not an easy task. As you can imagine, depending on the region of the country lived in, and specific species kept makes a enormous difference in how information regarding reptile care is disseminated. I'm in Colorado, and I constantly battle low humidity, while someone in Texas or other parts of the south might have far too much humidity. Add into this multitude of options for enclosures and it can seem incredibly overwhelming to put together a respectable reptile habitat.

That being said, I wouldnt put too much stock into what others say is the right and wrong temp gradients or heating devices. The fact is that there are literally only two parameters that you need to achieve with most snakes: they must achieve a core body temperature of around 82-83 degrees, and humidity needs to be within the individual species given parameters The actuality of the situation is that snakes do not need a temperature gradient inside their enclosure. We as reptile keepers, limited by the tools we had available for heating and enclosures, used the gradient to essentially hedge our bets, and allow the reptile the opportunity to move between regions of cool and hot, finding that perfect body temperature. With the usual 90/80 hot/cool gradient split, the hot side overshoots the ideal reptile body temperature, acting really as a pool of heat the reptile can soak up, and then move off of when it has had enough time at an elevated temperature. So you can see that with the heat gradient model, if you charted core body temperature vs time, an oscillating wave pattern would appear, with the animal's body temp rising up and above the ideal temperature while the snake is on the heat pad, and then falling down and dipping below ideal while the animal is off the heat pad. To avoid being labeled an iconoclast I will simply say that this model has become the 'tried and proven' method employed by reptile keepers for years, almost based solely off of empirical evidence that the animals continued to eat, defecate, breed etc.

However, I honestly believe that with the advent of PVC cages, RHPs and the like, there is absolutely no need to provide the typical heat tape hot spot. Using one heating device is simpler, safer and more efficient. I personally have been using ambient heat only in my reptile room for many months now, and I feel it has made a much needed positive change. Granted, I understand that in your situation it isnt economical to heat an entire room just for one enclosure. I would recommend ditching the heat tape, keeping the RHP, and shooting for a constant and even 82-84 degrees inside your enclosure. Since i switched to ambient heat only, my snakes seem much happier, alert, active and friendly. Sheds are amazing and humidity stays right where it should. When you are ready to upgrade enclosures, grab an Animal Plastics t8 for your boa. They are perennially on sale for 150$, hold heat and humidity amazing.

Don't let all the shlock written on the internet about reptiles irritate you like it did me for so many years. People especially in the reptile hobby love the herd mentality, they latch onto some dogmatic line of thought, and then lambaste those who dont follow suit.

---

that is a super interesting notion, although i'd be a little scared to try it, "hedging bets" is a very good way to put it. Let me ask you about RHP's, i have a 40 watt (in my OP i said 80, but its 40) and it heats the surface 14 inches below it to about 82.5 F, which is great, but it's "footprint" is rather small. That is to say there is a very definitive line where the heat stops and beyond it the temp drops about 6 or 7 degrees. Would a more powerful one cast wider, or would it simply be able to get the same size area hotter?
i just checked out the T8, great price for great floor space, but the height (12") seems a bit short, especially with a RHP a few inches thick on the ceiling. what do you think?

ok, here a few shots of my setup, its not pretty but its been working so far - note that many of the vent holes are taped over, it took about 2 weeks for me to realize that 45 large holes might have had something to do with my inability to retain humidity.
The probe is usually all the way to the left, i moved it to double check the RHP's output and the analog thermometer's accuracy (pretty good surprisingly) the hot side probe is under the temple, as is the thermostat probe. A UTH extends from the right edge to just about the outer edge of the temple and all the way form front to back. Humidly is reading low b/c the tank was just open for a while while i put Irwin back in (you all know what its like trying to get them back into bed after a play session).


Dimensions are 33" wide, 15" deep, 14" tall.


the front cover is pretty bad for viewing, but its not a display tank anyway.
https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...06092175_o.jpg




https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...20756383_o.jpg



https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...70590068_o.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dkatz4

I am totally of the less is more School of thought in terms of feeding; my only reservation is that at two years old he still has a bit of growing to do before he hits his adult size and while I certainly don't want to power feed him to grow him faster I don't want to stunt him either. I think you and I may have actually had this discussion on one of my previous posts? For the time being I have him on a 14 day feeding schedule on the smallest small rats I can find. I figure when he's three I will really start spacing out the meals leting him poop and get a little hungry. - unless you think that would be really bad!

---

When feeding boas less is more, their metabolisms are slower than pythons. You can also kill them at a young age by over-feeding. Once mine hit two years old I like to give an appropriate-sized feeder, usually a rat or young rabbit that leaves almost no discernible lump - every three weeks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dkatz4

ok, here a few shots of my setup, its not pretty but its been working so far - note that many of the vent holes are taped over, it took about 2 weeks for me to realize that 45 large holes might have had something to do with my inability to retain humidity.
The probe is usually all the way to the left, i moved it to double check the RHP's output and the analog thermometer's accuracy (pretty good surprisingly) the hot side probe is under the temple, as is the thermostat probe. A UTH extends from the right edge to just about the outer edge of the temple and all the way form front to back. Humidly is reading low b/c the tank was just open for a while while i put Irwin back in (you all know what its like trying to get them back into bed after a play session).


Dimensions are 33" wide, 15" deep, 14" tall.


the front cover is pretty bad for viewing, but its not a display tank anyway.
https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...06092175_o.jpg




https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...20756383_o.jpg



https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...70590068_o.jpg

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Nice job with that. I'm rather impressed and think it looks pretty good.

My previous post was a list of possibilities and certainly nothing to note as gospel.

If you've only had him a short time, he could just be getting comfortable and feels safe enough to move around.

Josh has some good info too. I believe there are a lot of "ideas" on how to do things because there is probably no 100% right way. We do our best to provide the right climate, food, shelter and options.

If you are able to get them to eat and show growth, good sheds and if you become interested, get them to breed, you are usually with in the range of doing it properly.

Not bad looking for a little tub set up. And like mentioned, less is more with boas on food. I feed babies to 1 year old every week. 1-2 year old every 2-3 weeks. 3+ years old every 3-6 weeks. Just extend it out slowly the older they get past 3 years old. Now once in awhile the rat god smiles on them and tosses them an extra rat...or I should say my BP is a pita and decides she wants to play games lol.....

The only thing I would worry about is if your boas are like mine, they try and find the worst place to take a piss or poop which in your case would mean the front of the tub so the liquid leaks out and drips all the over the floor and smells like.....well...piss :P Or for mine, it means lets find the acurite gauge and drop the biggest deuce we can right square on the unit....or course this is after we push it flat on the aspen so we can get the biggest coverage :mad:

Oh and you truly know your boa is feeling comfortable when they stretch out in the cage and you open it and they only turn their head about a quarter turn, sniff the air for a rat and then lay back down. That's when you know you got a content and lazy boa lol.

I am truly tickled pink that you folks like my snake tub - its one of those projects that i am embarrassed of b/c its so modest, but also proud of b/c i worked so hard to get it as good as it could be. I am planning and putting together a materials list to build a more permanent display quality setup that will be mounted into a set of built-in book cases in my study. Waiting about a year until i have a more accurate idea of his adult size and (fingers crossed) i get the chance to pick up another boa to join him (not in the same enclosure, of course, but mounted in the same wall unit).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dkatz4

I am truly tickled pink that you folks like my snake tub - its one of those projects that i am embarrassed of b/c its so modest, but also proud of b/c i worked so hard to get it as good as it could be.

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Don't be embarrassed - it is simple, inexpensive, effective, and provides a much more healthy environment for your snake than more costly setups.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dkatz4

that is a super interesting notion, although i'd be a little scared to try it, "hedging bets" is a very good way to put it. Let me ask you about RHP's, i have a 40 watt (in my OP i said 80, but its 40) and it heats the surface 14 inches below it to about 82.5 F, which is great, but it's "footprint" is rather small. That is to say there is a very definitive line where the heat stops and beyond it the temp drops about 6 or 7 degrees. Would a more powerful one cast wider, or would it simply be able to get the same size area hotter?
i just checked out the T8, great price for great floor space, but the height (12") seems a bit short, especially with a RHP a few inches thick on the ceiling. what do you think?

---

So the thing with heating is that it isnt always about the wattage of heat that matters, but it is more the retention of heat that plays a bigger role. AP T8s are a standard these days for both boas and bps. The foot height is plenty. Some people provide higher enclosures to allow their animals to climb, but it never really seemed that necessary for me. A smaller height will allow you to maintain an ambient air temperature easier. The t8s hold heat extremely well, and will help you get a nice even ambient temperature. RBI claims that a 40w is sufficient to heat a T8 in a room that is above about 72 deg. Pro Products would sell you a 65w model for the same cage. Either of these work fine, Pro Products RHPs are thinner however. A larger RHP will give you a larger footprint, but honestly if you insulate well enough it shouldnt really matter. I wouldnt be scared to try the ambient heat only method. As long as you maintain this single temperature uniformly you will be fine. I would place the RHP in the middle of the enclosure, and take temperature readings of the air down by snake height.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoshSloane

So the thing with heating is that it isnt always about the wattage of heat that matters, but it is more the retention of heat that plays a bigger role. AP T8s are a standard these days for both boas and bps. The foot height is plenty. Some people provide higher enclosures to allow their animals to climb, but it never really seemed that necessary for me. A smaller height will allow you to maintain an ambient air temperature easier. The t8s hold heat extremely well, and will help you get a nice even ambient temperature. RBI claims that a 40w is sufficient to heat a T8 in a room that is above about 72 deg. Pro Products would sell you a 65w model for the same cage. Either of these work fine, Pro Products RHPs are thinner however. A larger RHP will give you a larger footprint, but honestly if you insulate well enough it shouldnt really matter. I wouldnt be scared to try the ambient heat only method. As long as you maintain this single temperature uniformly you will be fine. I would place the RHP in the middle of the enclosure, and take temperature readings of the air down by snake height.

---

good point about the shorter height keeping the ambient temp more consistent. I think part of my problem is that my basement is chilly (about 65F). I had an idea to look around for an appropriate small sculpture or tchotchke made of soapstone to put directly under the RHP, obviously something that my snake could enjoy as furniture, but genuine soapstone should (theoretically) absorb, retain, and evenly emit the heat very well. Have you ever tried those heat vines? I don't know if they actually radiate any heat or if they are only warm to the touch, but i thought of wrapping a log or something with them to act as a little in-tank radiator. but before installing sculpture or electric heat i will probably just make a tank cozy out of some old blankets and see if the extra insulation boosts the effectiveness of what i already have.

I wouldnt mess around with heat vines or the like. Like I said earlier, keeping things simple is often the key to success. I really like to maintain one heating element, and one temperature. Insulation is going to be your friend here with this issue. You can head to home depot and they have a plethora of options for insulating. You could buy some actual insulation made for houses, or simply get some styrofoam slabs and affix it to the sides of the enclosure. They also have spray insulation in small canisters.

This is why AP T8s are so popular. They have 1/2 inch PVC that really holds the heat great.

65 deg is considered pretty cold for a snake enclosure to be in, but can definitely work given the proper insulation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoshSloane

65 deg is considered pretty cold for a snake enclosure to be in, but can definitely work given the proper insulation.

---

A couple of nights this winter my heat pump* couldn't keep up with the low temperature outside and the house temp dropped below 65*F. I put a wool blanket over the racks on those nights, which did the trick nicely at keeping the ambient temp in the tubs warm enough. I removed the blanket as soon as the house warmed up during the day.

*Tip: don't get a heat pump if your outside temps can regularly drop below 20*F.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoshSloane

Insulation is going to be your friend here with this issue. You can head to home depot and they have a plethora of options for insulating. You could buy some actual insulation made for houses, or simply get some styrofoam slabs and affix it to the sides of the enclosure. They also have spray insulation in small canisters.

This is why AP T8s are so popular. They have 1/2 inch PVC that really holds the heat great.

65 deg is considered pretty cold for a snake enclosure to be in, but can definitely work given the proper insulation.

---

This is sort of a pet peeve of mine - so much of the heating advice seems to assume you heat your house considerably warmer than almost anyone I know in my area. I shudder to think of what my heating bill would look like if I tried to keep even one room at a constant 70° all winter.

Yes, you can use space heaters or zones if your heating system has them, but that's a considerable energy expenditure when all you really need to do is heat a handful of cubic feet where the snake lives. Big heat panels are expensive, but they are way cheaper than heating a whole room, let alone heating a whole house to 70° even during the workday when no one's home. Given a rough national average price of electricity, a 1000-watt space heater costs something on the order of $25/mo to run full time, and lots of the frequently recommended oil-filled heaters are more like 1500 watts. A 120-watt RBI panel costs 88% less in electricity, so the difference in the power bill alone adds up to the cost of the panel within just a few months.

At the moment, I use an 80-watt RHP on a 20-long tank (with foam around three sides plus the bottom) and it maintains perfect even ambient temperature, even though in the winter the room temperature can drop to 55° during the workday.

The TL;DR is: If you can afford the energy bill to heat the whole room, you can afford to buy insulation and as big an RHP as you need in order to heat just the enclosure instead.

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Originally Posted by Coluber42

This is sort of a pet peeve of mine - so much of the heating advice seems to assume you heat your house considerably warmer than almost anyone I know in my area. I shudder to think of what my heating bill would look like if I tried to keep even one room at a constant 70° all winter.

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As an FYI, if you store your bulk frozen feeders in a small chest freezer, and if the chest freezer is in the snake room, then that room stays toasty all winter if you keep the door closed.

Hey I'm running the freezer anyway, might as well put it where the heat exhaust does some good.

Didnt mean to be peevish, in Colorado our thermostat for the entire home is set at about 71 most of the time. In the winter we use an oil heater to heat the entire room up to 83-84. Once spring and summer come the heater doesnt have to work as hard, and only supplies a small supplement amount of heat to add to the natural temps in the room. We just shut off the vents so that the air conditioning doesnt fight the heater.

The fact is that every situation is different, both geographically, financially and experience wise. What works for me with 15+ reptiles is going to be much different for someone with one snake. These are ectothermic animals living mostly in climates that would never naturally support their needs. We cannot bend them to our preferred home temperatures. With ectotherms we are beholden to the laws of thermodynamics, and starting with a cold room is just going to make your job that much harder. Thats not to say that it cant be done. I know of individuals who keep tortoises in fully enclosed areas in garages that get down into freezing temperatures at night. Yet they constructed HIGHLY insulated and heated enclosures that can pretty much stand up to any cold temperatures, and maintain temps in the mid 80s.

There is no right answer to the heating question, but I will tell you from experience that not starting out in a cold room is going to save a ton of time, energy and frustration.

Yes, of course it's harder to heat an enclosure in a cold room than a warm one, and it's more expensive to set up. But also, the equation changes when you are talking about heating 15 enclosures versus heating one or two. Running 10 120-watt RHP's is the same wattage as a 1200-watt heater, and would cost way more to set up and regulate, etc. But most people asking for heating advice because they can't get their enclosure up to where it should be have one or two snakes. People with larger collections still discuss heating methods, but they ask different kinds of questions.

In any case, I still think that if someone complains about the price tag of a large RHP for one animal (or additional insulation, additional heat mats, whatever), recommending that they heat the whole room with an oil-filled heater or crank up the thermostat for the whole house instead is bad advice because it will exceed the initial setup costs of heating the enclosure fairly quickly.

And there are definitely plenty of people who have figured out how to heat a small number of enclosures in a cold room, and any number of ways to make it work; I don't think the first advice should have to be to heat the whole room instead.

I never advised anyone to heat their whole room as I do. And I always mention that everyone's situation is different. I recommended that the OP could stick with ONE heat source inside their enclosure, and rely on improved insulation to achieve correct temperatures, and not worry about a hot spot.

Regarding background room temperatures, all I am saying is that having your room at least at standard room temps of low 70s, you are going to have a much easier time.

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Originally Posted by JoshSloane

I never advised anyone to heat their whole room as I do. And I always mention that everyone's situation is different. I recommended that the OP could stick with ONE heat source inside their enclosure, and rely on improved insulation to achieve correct temperatures, and not worry about a hot spot.

Regarding background room temperatures, all I am saying is that having your room at least at standard room temps of low 70s, you are going to have a much easier time.

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I totally agree with this.

There are so many variables from keeper to keeper, and house to house.

Personally I like to heat my room to a certain temp and allow the heat panels to regulate off the thermostat. With a semi heated room, I'm not blasting an RHP at 100% of its power the whole time to achieve a desired temp.

I also use a night drop which changes the entire climate of the cage over night. The room alone is sufficient for 8 hours of cooler temps.

There are many ways to achieve the end result. The trick is finding what is best for you.

From what I remember at the beginning of this thread, the O/P was certainly within an acceptable temp range.