Kings eating other snakes

I want a kingsnake and I'm getting into breeding ball pythons. One has nothing to do with the other, but would like to know if it would be possible to feed baby BPs to a kingsnake ? As a rat breeder, as feeder and some as pets, culling is important and also necessary to get the best out of the rats and to feed the snakes I have. I am wondering if BPs have a good nutritionnal value (read somewhere that snakes as a whole are kinda good ?) and if it is "worthwhile" for the King. I know this is a pretty awful question to ask in a snake loving community, but I love my snakes, as I do my rats, and I just want the best for them as well as for myself since it would make is "easier" then finding good people to take care of them or keeping them all.

I prefer not to have "this is awful to the snake" responses as it is the same thing if you change snake for rat.

It would have to be a very, very large kingsnake to eat even a newly hatched BP, I would suspect.

Hmmm I've seen a bp breeder feeding his frogs and turtles a bp when it was serverly kinked or dead. But I mean it's your animals so do what you want with them. However idk if a kingsnake could fit a bp like caspian said.
http://youtu.be/iiYcnCNYLKc

I understand the concept here and it totally makes sense to do this with deformed or dead hatchlings but I hope you're not considering it with healthy ones?
There would really be no reason for that as you can just as easily sell them to someone for a pet even if they're just normals. From an economic perspective thats also one heck of an expensive meal for the king snake even if they're just normals.

Just some things I found on a quick search. Kingsnakes eat snakes as proven below. The two snakes would have to be in the right size range to work but it is possible.

http://picture.gj18.com/Thumbnails/2...Sale-11399.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdCozo_Ub_Q

This is a thread we had a while back that may be interesting too.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...uot-on-YouTube

Thanks guys!

How did you find that last link KMG!? I've been looking all evening and only got general info on kings!

It would be Piedpipper, but money is not the question. Giving a snake to the king wouldn't cost more or less then a rat when I did not buy it. Though I would also have to consider the time off the king would need between each feeding which I suppose would be longer then rats. I would also be almost impossible to have enough snakes to feed it. Would have to make sure it won't go on eating strike because of that one or two times it ate a bp. It's pretty much on theory and hypothesis. I will get a king soon and it'll be a few years before it is big enough to even think of trying. I might forget about it until then, bp babies are way too cute!

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Originally Posted by piedpipper

I understand the concept here and it totally makes sense to do this with deformed or dead hatchlings but I hope you're not considering it with healthy ones?
There would really be no reason for that as you can just as easily sell them to someone for a pet even if they're just normals. From an economic perspective thats also one heck of an expensive meal for the king snake even if they're just normals.

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Yep . That's my view as well .

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Originally Posted by piedpipper

I understand the concept here and it totally makes sense to do this with deformed or dead hatchlings but I hope you're not considering it with healthy ones?
There would really be no reason for that as you can just as easily sell them to someone for a pet even if they're just normals. From an economic perspective thats also one heck of an expensive meal for the king snake even if they're just normals.

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Anything healthy somewhere could be sold as a pet instead of being fed off, does this also mean only deformed or dead rats should be fed off and healthy ones sold as pets?

Some animal are raised as feeder it's that simple, some people use feeder rats, mice, snakes, rabbits, some people eat chickens etc while others see those same animals as pet.

Sent from my SM-T320 using Tapatalk

Agreed with Deborah. I breed rats as both feeders and pets and it would be hypocritical to say I would only feed non-healthy snakes when I feed off healthy animals of another species (rats) all the time.

I can't offer much on the actual nutrition value of bps but good on you for doing your research and opening an interesting topic.

I have several king snakes. They get all of my stillborn and cull neonates. My female MBK gets the ball python culls, but she is a big girl.

bcr229 : Would they eat slugs too ? And isn't a MBK too small ? That is the king I am trying to get. But reading on it and it seems to be smaller then common kingsnakes. I don't want to end up feeding something that is too big D:
All this info I've been trying to find and you guys are all giving it, thanks :D

I've never offered the slugs to my king snakes. I think people have fed slugs to larger lizards, if they have them.

My adult female MBK is a nice size, just shy of five feet. She's much larger than my female CA king even though she's younger.

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Originally Posted by Ufoo9k

Thanks guys!

How did you find that last link KMG!? I've been looking all evening and only got general info on kings!

It would be Piedpipper, but money is not the question. Giving a snake to the king wouldn't cost more or less then a rat when I did not buy it. Though I would also have to consider the time off the king would need between each feeding which I suppose would be longer then rats. I would also be almost impossible to have enough snakes to feed it. Would have to make sure it won't go on eating strike because of that one or two times it ate a bp. It's pretty much on theory and hypothesis. I will get a king soon and it'll be a few years before it is big enough to even think of trying. I might forget about it until then, bp babies are way too cute!

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I found it on Google. I just searched a couple different word combos and it popped up. I knew I had seen it before and usually have pretty good look finding our threads with Google.

Wouldn't feeding a female ball back to weight aftrr laying be much more expensive than the cost of feeding rats or mice to the king? I see where you are coming from but it kind of seems impractical. To get 6 meals a year(the baby balls) you still have to feed the balls rats all year. Maybe like mentioned supplement with a deformed or stillborn baby but why use a ball Python?

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Anything healthy somewhere could be sold as a pet instead of being fed off, does this also mean only deformed or dead rats should be fed off and healthy ones sold as pets?

Some animal are raised as feeder it's that simple, some people use feeder rats, mice, snakes, rabbits, some people eat chickens etc while others see those same animals as pet.

Sent from my SM-T320 using Tapatalk

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Yes that is true. However, as chiliscales said, it would be ridiculously impractical to spend all year breeding, feeding, and watching the females, incubating the eggs, etc. all just to feed the babies to a king snake. That is not comparable to raising rats if only because of the amount of time and effort required to produce only a few bp babies. Especially with bp's being such an extremely low production snake (in terms of egg count).

I don't know if the OP's plan is to do this (i.e. go through all that trouble just to feed them ALL off to king snakes) or to just feed off the sickling individuals. The OP didn't specify their plans as to this regard. I'm just saying if that is the case it would be extremely costly in terms of time and effort spent breeding, incubating etc. and rats put into the breeding females (even if you didn't pay for the bp babies directly).

For myself I was just asking if it was possible to do it and to make sure it would not be bad for the Kingsnake to get fed ball python. I do not want to feed it snakes all year round at all, but like it was said, if I breed unhealthy (or healthy) babies that are not necessary to my breeding project and that I cannot/don't want to sell, then it would be a good change in meal for the king.

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Originally Posted by Ufoo9k

For myself I was just asking if it was possible to do it and to make sure it would not be bad for the Kingsnake to get fed ball python. I do not want to feed it snakes all year round at all, but like it was said, if I breed unhealthy (or healthy) babies that are not necessary to my breeding project and that I cannot/don't want to sell, then it would be a good change in meal for the king.

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As long as the king snake is big enough it's not a problem.

Another option is to find someone near you who keeps eastern indigoes or king cobras. You can euthanize the culls, put the carcass and any stillborn babies in the freezer, and then give them to people who need snakes as feeders.

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Originally Posted by piedpipper

I understand the concept here and it totally makes sense to do this with deformed or dead hatchlings but I hope you're not considering it with healthy ones?
There would really be no reason for that as you can just as easily sell them to someone for a pet even if they're just normals. From an economic perspective thats also one heck of an expensive meal for the king snake even if they're just normals.

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I agree with this. I personally hate the phrase "just normals" and this is why I'll never breed bp's. The market is way too fickle and any time you start talking about feeding snakes that you produce as part of your breeding program to other snakes because you can't or don't want to go through the trouble of finding buyers for them... it just makes me uneasy. Is this really why we get into snake breeding? To find the "next coolest morph baby" that'll end up browned out and honestly not as good looking as an adult normal? And discard the normals as if they are feeder rats? I don't know. Just doesn't sit well with me.

But your snakes, your life. Your choices.

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Originally Posted by Hypancistrus

Is this really why we get into snake breeding? To find the "next coolest morph baby" that'll end up browned out and honestly not as good looking as an adult normal? And discard the normals as if they are feeder rats? I don't know. Just doesn't sit well with me.

But your snakes, your life. Your choices.

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Before morphs exploded into the scene, BP's were commonly bred and used as feeders for snake-eating snakes.

Bear in mind also that many feeders for our snakes are a byproduct of rat and rabbit breeders who produce them for pets and for competitions. Anything that isn't up to breed standard for shows, and that doesn't have the disposition to be a good pet, gets fed off.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

Bear in mind also that many feeders for our snakes are a byproduct of rat and rabbit breeders who produce them for pets and for competitions. Anything that isn't up to breed standard for shows, and that doesn't have the disposition to be a good pet, gets fed off.

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I get that... but in this case you aren't culling because of health, or temperament or "disposition," you are culling because it doesn't look right, it doesn't meet some arbitrary standard of "prettiness" or "usefulness" in making morphs. It's not the same as culling an animal because it is aggressive or unhealthy. In fact, in the reptile community, often unhealthy animals (albino basking reptiles, scale-less animals, traits that create genetic conditions like wobble) are still kept and bred and sold because they make money. It's not about health or temperament-- it's about money. When you kill an animal because of money, that's what bothers me.

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Originally Posted by Hypancistrus

I agree with this. I personally hate the phrase "just normals" and this is why I'll never breed bp's. The market is way too fickle and any time you start talking about feeding snakes that you produce as part of your breeding program to other snakes because you can't or don't want to go through the trouble of finding buyers for them... it just makes me uneasy. Is this really why we get into snake breeding? To find the "next coolest morph baby" that'll end up browned out and honestly not as good looking as an adult normal? And discard the normals as if they are feeder rats? I don't know. Just doesn't sit well with me.

But your snakes, your life. Your choices.

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Here in Manchester , England . Local stores sell 'normal' Royals for £69 / €89 ... They sell easily enough and presumably the store gives the breeders around £25 each snake ?

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Here in Manchester , England . Local stores sell 'normal' Royals for £69 / €89 ... They sell easily enough and presumably the store gives the breeders around £25 each snake ?

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In my local area of the US, I have seen out of egg normal ball pythons for as little as $15-20. There are a great many in rescues here, as well. My normal came from a rescue. So there definitely are some issues with selling normals, particularly if you are unwilling or unable to wholesale them to pet stores. If I WERE to breed BP's, then, I would attempt to structure my breeding to produce the fewest possible normals-- in my case I would probably choose to focus on pieds, breeding only pieds to pieds. That way I am not producing snakes with little to no value.

Then again, I do not breed my animals as a business. It's a hobby. I rarely make any money, and it never covers the cost of maintenance and supplies.

I'm sure an adult king of quite a few different species would be able to handle a hatchling bp no problem. The king we have now is just a baby but once its to adult size it will get fed any unhealthy babies and healthy babies that I can't find a good home for. Last season my buddy got het albinos, het hypos, and spider het albinos to feed to his monitor. They were all healthy. The rats I feed to my snakes and the roaches I feed to my spiders are all fed healthy and cared for well but also feeders. Everything has to eat. :gj:

I was just wondering about this myself. I'm not breeding ball pythons yet, but soon I will be. One of the ladies I'm getting is a fire spider that I am assured has no wobble. No wobble in the lines, either. Everywhere else I read says that all spiders have some degree of wobble. I want to extract the fire from the fire spider, but I'll get spiders while I'm working on that. What do I do if they have wobble? I have no intention of selling unhealthy snakes. What if I get kinks, failure to thrive or stillborns? What if I'm drowning in normals that won't sell, I can't find someone to buy them wholesale and I've run out of room to house them and feeders to feed them? I think it's responsible to have a contingency plan, especially since king snakes eat more than just other snakes.

I raise meat rabbits, pigs, chickens, rats and mice, and I have contingencies in place for them, so why not for my ball pythons? Plus, it makes it easy to justify getting another snake :)

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Originally Posted by Wild Vitality

I'm getting is a fire spider that I am assured has no wobble. No wobble in the lines, either. Everywhere else I read says that all spiders have some degree of wobble. I want to extract the fire from the fire spider, but I'll get spiders while I'm working on that. What do I do if they have wobble? I have no intention of selling unhealthy snakes.

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Just because the person selling you the snake hasn't recognized the wobble in their spiders, doesn't mean it isn't there. It's simply something that comes with the territory when working with that particular morph. A wobble in itself is not a good reason for culling - except in extreme circumstances - as folks willing to buy spiders should already be on board with a bit of quirkiness.

If you want to feed your snake eater the occasional cannibalistic cuisine, that's fine. It's perfectly natural for them and your curiosity in the process doesn't just magically change your name to Abby Normal. I would suggest finding a reliable source. I personally couldn't trust some random person selling dead snakes for feeders but I am particular about what I offer my critters. The sentiments "quality in, quality out" are just as pertinent in regards to prey as they are in their more common application for breeding.

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Originally Posted by Black Swamp

I was just wondering about this myself. I'm not breeding ball pythons yet, but soon I will be. One of the ladies I'm getting is a fire spider that I am assured has no wobble. No wobble in the lines, either. Everywhere else I read says that all spiders have some degree of wobble. I want to extract the fire from the fire spider, but I'll get spiders while I'm working on that. What do I do if they have wobble? I have no intention of selling unhealthy snakes. What if I get kinks, failure to thrive or stillborns? What if I'm drowning in normals that won't sell, I can't find someone to buy them wholesale and I've run out of room to house them and feeders to feed them? I think it's responsible to have a contingency plan, especially since king snakes eat more than just other snakes.

I raise meat rabbits, pigs, chickens, rats and mice, and I have contingencies in place for them, so why not for my ball pythons? Plus, it makes it easy to justify getting another snake :)

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I would not trust buying from someone that claims a spider has no wobble along with the rest of its lines. They're either lying for a sale or don't know what the subtle wobble looks like.

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Originally Posted by Caspian

It would have to be a very, very large kingsnake to eat even a newly hatched BP, I would suspect.

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I don't normally like to necro ancient threads, but wow. This is dangerous. An adult common kingsnake (L getula) is easily capable of killing and consuming an adult BP, and will if given the chance. I've seen it happen.

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Originally Posted by Mark C

I don't normally like to necro ancient threads, but wow. This is dangerous. An adult common kingsnake (L getula) is easily capable of killing and consuming an adult BP, and will if given the chance. I've seen it happen.

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I agree with you on both counts- First, an adult king snake can certainly kill snakes larger than themselves- they're very effective constrictors- though consumption may be another matter. Snakes have been known to die from trying to eat one that's the same size as they are, so one that's much larger can be problematic (causing internal injury- & snakes can die from regurgitation alone if they aspirate).

And we generally avoid adding to necro threads ;) but you're forgiven, lol. I'm surprised no one cleared this one up long before now. (And welcome!)

This went from feeding snakes to snakes to someone guaranteeing a Spider doesn't have the Wobble....

Did you ever get the Spider?? Did it had the wobble?

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Originally Posted by Mistery510

This went from feeding snakes to snakes to someone guaranteeing a Spider doesn't have the Wobble....

Did you ever get the Spider?? Did it had the wobble?

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This thread is actually from 2016- you're not likely to get a response. ;)

See above post #28: https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...=1#post2781926

It just sucks how some posts just die

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Originally Posted by Mistery510

It just sucks how some posts just die

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Did you know that if you click on a members name, then their profile, that will show you the last time they were on the forum. When it's been a year+ that's a pretty good indication they won't be responding to you. You can also look at their latest posts to tell how long it's been since they were around. Life happens, not everyone sticks with it, or sticks around here. Many just come & go. ;)

I know all that, I was just hoping that maybe if i reply, they will get an email saying someone replied to their post! And they will come back and give us the Updates!!!

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Originally Posted by Mistery510

I know all that, I was just hoping that maybe if i reply, they will get an email saying someone replied to their post! And they will come back and give us the Updates!!!

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Okay then. Some here used to make fun of anyone trying to revive such old ("necro") threads, & you just might be the one to revive that questionable tradition. ;)

May I suggest that either you post a new thread on the topic for inclusive discussion and-or- pm the person you're trying to ask?

Definitely not going to PM anyone anymore lol.

But I get it... I'm the annoying new guy here.

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Originally Posted by Mistery510

Definitely not going to PM anyone anymore lol.

But I get it... I'm the annoying new guy here.

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I didn't say "annoying" :cool: We want to have more activity here but it's just that there are more effective ways to accomplish that.

There's nothing wrong with PMs for some things- but we want our discussions to be inclusive here. A PM only answers questions for one person, & a forum is all about the "community" that may also have input ("2 heads are better than one") or just be reading these threads to get answers to their similar questions.

I can only start so many new threads....