Too hot?

Is 95 °F too hot for a ball python? It is the temperature of the glass with THG heat tape on it. She decided to kick all of her substrate out from her hide, so instead of the 92° with substrate it is now 95°.

What are you using to control the temperature of the heat tape and the temperature of the glass surface?

95°F for a hot spot is rather high. I aim for 90-92°F

I also aim for 90F. Generally, when you take the temperature of the hot spot, you should do it at the hottest area your ball python can get to (which includes under the substrate since some ball pythons are known to burrow).

You should monitor the temp on the glass, not on top of the substrate. Your snake will be able to burrow and move the substrate so you need to plan accordingly.

I shoot for 88-90.

I use a herpstat thermostat and I used the herpstat probe to test the temps since it is probably more accurate. Also note that there is a probe in direct contact with the heat tape. I didn't plan on her excavating out her hide, but she is shedding atm too.

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Originally Posted by Jon14

I didn't plan on her excavating out her hide...

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If I had a nickel... :)

I wouldn't say that's too hot. Nature isn't exactly 92 degrees a few degrees higher or lower is all good

I set my gals temp to 88F. In nature, they're temps are anywhere from mid 70s to 90. Dottie spends most of her time in the 78F cool side. She really only sits in the warm hide after food and that's not for too long either.

Bottom line...95F is too hot, drop it by at least 5F. A little too cool wont hurt your snake as much as too hot.

I will drop it 3°, so it will be at 92°. I do not want to drop it too far as it contributes to ambient.

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Originally Posted by Jon14

I will drop it 3°, so it will be at 92°. I do not want to drop it too far as it contributes to ambient.

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It really doesn't.

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Originally Posted by KMG

It really doesn't.

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As my ambient temps drop 2°....:sarcasm:yep it doesn't effect it. Anyways, I do agree that it has a minimal effect on it, but to say it has no effect is not correct.

Agreed. Without the CHE my ambient temps would be as low as 68. With it, the coldest spots are 78 running up to mid-low 90's directly under the lamp. Adjusting the temps for the hot spot changes the overall ambient temp when your heater is the source of both.

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Originally Posted by Jon14

As my ambient temps drop 2°....:sarcasm:yep it doesn't effect it. Anyways, I do agree that it has a minimal effect on it, but to say it has no effect is not correct.

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When regulated around 90 degrees it really doesn't and 2 degrees doesn't matter.
You should always be checking temperatures on the hottest surface your animal can touch. This would be under everything. :rofl:

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

You should always be checking temperatures on the hottest surface your animal can touch. This would be under everything. :rofl:

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Nobody said that I did not check the hot area, hence why I started the thread. My thought process on the substrate within the hide is that she wouldn't have a reason to dig it out if it was 92° because it would be plenty warm for her.
As for the slight temperature decrease, 2° is significant to me. Now if it were .1 or .01°, then it would not be that significant, but that is just my thoughts on it.

Is it not more important to observe your snake and where it is hanging out?

If your snake is spending way more time in his/her cold side hide, you might actually be a few degrees too hot.

I watch the natural temp raise and humidity drop over about a 3 day span in my tank from 88 F to a peak of 92 F after about 72 hours undisturbed. The humidity drops from 70 to about 55 in that time.

But I notice my snake will spend way more time on his hot side when it's below 90 and then he shifts to the cold side as it raises.

I would really only think the tank is too hot if my snake never left the cold side.

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Originally Posted by Hammertime1977

Is it not more important to observe your snake and where it is hanging out?

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I completely agree, I have been keeping an eye on her, and she spends majority of her time on the hot side (my cool side temps and ambient are where they should be).

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Originally Posted by MandMac

Agreed. Without the CHE my ambient temps would be as low as 68. With it, the coldest spots are 78 running up to mid-low 90's directly under the lamp. Adjusting the temps for the hot spot changes the overall ambient temp when your heater is the source of both.

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Of course a CHE changes the ambient temp. That is an overhead heat source pumping out a ton of heat. Sure it is a more directed beam than a flooding heat bulb but it has heat spill that reaches and warms the entire cage.

A UTH on the other hand is a under tank heat source that should only be putting off enough heat to get a nice hot spot of 88-90(on the cage floor). An UTH is not meant for heating the entire cage, though many people believe they are.

Comparing the effect of a CHE is nothing like a UTH.

Im just glad the OP didn't have the substrate so thick they had to have the UTH pumped up and caused a burn on the snake when it moved the substrate aside.

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Originally Posted by Jon14

As my ambient temps drop 2°....:sarcasm:yep it doesn't effect it. Anyways, I do agree that it has a minimal effect on it, but to say it has no effect is not correct.

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No other factors could have aided the drop? Like a night time temp drop of the house. My snake room drops more than two degrees at night and Im in Texas.

Lets see if the ambient temps don't pick back up around noon.

95 is too high. Another thing to keep in mind - Someone I saw has been keeping their hotspot at 94, and their female snakes are all almost completely laying slugs only. I believe the heat kills sperm and results in infertile eggs.

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Originally Posted by KMG

No other factors could have aided the drop? Like a night time temp drop of the house. My snake room drops more than two degrees at night and Im in Texas.

Lets see if the ambient temps don't pick back up around noon.

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The temperatures in my room stays constant as it is the basement. It seems to always be 60°. The temperature drop occurred shortly after altering my temps.

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Originally Posted by KMG

Of course a CHE changes the ambient temp. That is an overhead heat source pumping out a ton of heat. Sure it is a more directed beam than a flooding heat bulb but it has heat spill that reaches and warms the entire cage.

A UTH on the other hand is a under tank heat source that should only be putting off enough heat to get a nice hot spot of 88-90(on the cage floor). An UTH is not meant for heating the entire cage, though many people believe they are.

Comparing the effect of a CHE is nothing like a UTH.

Im just glad the OP didn't have the substrate so thick they had to have the UTH pumped up and caused a burn on the snake when it moved the substrate aside.

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I'm not certain that I am comparing. I was agreeing with Jon14 that lowering the setting on the thermostat does affect the ambient temperature of the enclosure. Logically, this makes sense to me, and it has been what I have experienced when I raise or lower the setting on my stat. IE: I raise the stat setting, the ambient increases; I lower the stat setting, the ambient decreases. And I would anticipate the same results were I using a UTH.

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Originally Posted by MandMac

I'm not certain that I am comparing. I was agreeing with Jon14 that lowering the setting on the thermostat does affect the ambient temperature of the enclosure. Logically, this makes sense to me, and it has been what I have experienced when I raise or lower the setting on my stat. IE: I raise the stat setting, the ambient increases; I lower the stat setting, the ambient decreases. And I would anticipate the same results were I using a UTH.

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Well you anticipate and I'll speak from experience.

Research it a bit. You will find thread after thread of people thinking their uth is all they needed. They found that was not the case. A uth does very little for ambient temps. That is not their purpose and trying to use them as such is incorrect.

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Originally Posted by KMG

Well you anticipate and I'll speak from experience.

Research it a bit. You will find thread after thread of people thinking their uth is all they needed. They found that was not the case. A uth does very little for ambient temps. That is not their purpose and trying to use them as such is incorrect.

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Regarding the research it a bit, thank you, but I'll pass.

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Originally Posted by MandMac

Regarding the research it a bit, thank you, but I'll pass.

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It would be awful to learn something that may help your snakes. A good owner is not afraid of learning the unknown about their pets, equipment, and techniques, trying to know all they can relating to the hobby.

For example, like how to sex their animals but that requires research too.

We all started at zero. Some choose to learn and become knowledge owners able to help others here while others hover just above zero and do little more than muddy the water.

You've made your choice. Good luck.

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Originally Posted by MandMac

Regarding the research it a bit, thank you, but I'll pass.

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WoW. Ignorant much??

Overhead or back heating runs a higher temperature to get the surface temperature to where you want it. This will increase the ambient temperatures.
Example in my hatchling rack I use back heat and the THG is about 96 degrees to give me a rear of the tub temperature of about 85 degrees.
All my racks running belly heat have a temperature difference of about 3 to 5 degrees between the floor temperature and the THG.

I don't know why people feel the need to comment if they don't know the answer and then get all pissy when corrected. Husbandry already has enough problems with all the he said or I heard stuff.
Knowledge is a useful thing to have, without it we are all ignorant. Now if you know better and respond the same would just be stupid. :soapbx:

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Originally Posted by KMG

It really doesn't.

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If the OP is the one with the snake and can physically see that the UTH is contributing to ambient temps then how can you disagree with that?
Very true that in tanks the UTH is not usually enough but every situation is different and if this setup is working for the OP then there is no reason to question it.

As for the original question I keep my BP's at 95 hot spot (granted this is heat tape temperature so temps on inside the tub are a few degrees less). If it's easy to just change the temp to a couple degrees less then that would be ideal (which it sounds like you already did).

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Originally Posted by piedpipper

If the OP is the one with the snake and can physically see that the UTH is contributing to ambient temps then how can you disagree with that?
Very true that in tanks the UTH is not usually enough but every situation is different and if this setup is working for the OP then there is no reason to question it.

As for the original question I keep my BP's at 95 hot spot (granted this is heat tape temperature so temps on inside the tub are a few degrees less). If it's easy to just change the temp to a couple degrees less then that would be ideal (which it sounds like you already did).

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Sounds like you need a temp gun so you know what the actual temps are you are providing your snake.

I once found a Flukers uth, which are advertised not to get over 100F, was insulated just right that the temps in a tub I was setting up got to 116F inside the tub. That's a problem. Good thing I was setting it up and had a temp gun.

I was not suggesting that the uth has no effect on the inside temps but what little it does have should not be worried about. It is safer to use a uth to create the ideal hotspot as intended and not worry about if your ambient temps drop 2 or 3 degrees. If they do buy a lamp, che, rhp, or whatever you need to do. I just don't see the point in using a heating device above what is required or suggested for an animal because you are worried about something it has little to no effect on. That is not the safest way to do things.

I have seen some crazy things and have found that just because the tstat is set at a certain number does not always mean the felt temp is going to be at or lower than that set number. I personally don't set any of my uth's to high. I prefer to keep them on the lower end of the snakes suggested hotspot to be even more on the safe side of things.

As to the OP maybe lowering the uth did drop the ambient temp a bit. I don't know and honestly it doesn't sound like they do either. More testing needs to be done. We would need to take several reading of both the room and the cage and then change the uth up and down to see what it really does to the cages ambient temp. I have no doubt that a uth run hot enough can certainly raise the ambient temp of a cage. I have seen uth's that melted through a tub and you know that ran the temp up. All Im trying to get across is that running a uth at a temp that is hot enough to see a big change in ambient temp is not the best method of heating a cage and is not the proper way to do it either.

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Originally Posted by KMG

Sounds like you need a temp gun so you know what the actual temps are you are providing your snake.

I once found a Flukers uth, which are advertised not to get over 100F, was insulated just right that the temps in a tub I was setting up got to 116F inside the tub. That's a problem. Good thing I was setting it up and had a temp gun.

I was not suggesting that the uth has no effect on the inside temps but what little it does have should not be worried about. It is safer to use a uth to create the ideal hotspot as intended and not worry about if your ambient temps drop 2 or 3 degrees. If they do buy a lamp, che, rhp, or whatever you need to do. I just don't see the point in using a heating device above what is required or suggested for an animal because you are worried about something it has little to no effect on. That is not the safest way to do things.

I have seen some crazy things and have found that just because the tstat is set at a certain number does not always mean the felt temp is going to be at or lower than that set number. I personally don't set any of my uth's to high. I prefer to keep them on the lower end of the snakes suggested hotspot to be even more on the safe side of things.

As to the OP maybe lowering the uth did drop the ambient temp a bit. I don't know and honestly it doesn't sound like they do either. More testing needs to be done. We would need to take several reading of both the room and the cage and then change the uth up and down to see what it really does to the cages ambient temp. I have no doubt that a uth run hot enough can certainly raise the ambient temp of a cage. I have seen uth's that melted through a tub and you know that ran the temp up. All Im trying to get across is that running a uth at a temp that is hot enough to see a big change in ambient temp is not the best method of heating a cage and is not the proper way to do it either.

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When did I ever say that I didn't have a temp gun and didn't check my temps in the tubs? I said that my thermostat is set to 95 and my tubs are a few degrees less. Of course I check the temps in the rack itself.

Aside from that thanks for the clarification here. What you're saying about the UTH makes a lot of sense. I was just saying that ultimately it is up to the OP to measure temps on both sides of the tank and determine the best way to heat it accordingly depending on how much the UTH contributes to total heating (in the OP's case)

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Originally Posted by piedpipper

When did I ever say that I didn't have a temp gun and didn't check my temps in the tubs? I said that my thermostat is set to 95 and my tubs are a few degrees less. Of course I check the temps in the rack itself.

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Good deal, Glad to hear it!!!

Everybody has their own methods, the methods are far less important than the results.

The best free advice is this :

Observe your snake. If it's spending all of it's time on the hot side, you're not hot enough. Same with the reverse.
*I will add identical hides to this as if one is "more secure" the snake, it will always pick that one regardless of temperature.

When your snake happily settles into a routine, you have it right.

My guy goes between his hides all the time. I will say that before and after eating, he spends more time on the hot side. But his big nap that normally comes between the feed and when he is ready to eat again, happens on the cool side mostly.

I think pride and thinking you know everything often gets in the way of simple observation.

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Originally Posted by Hammertime1977

Everybody has their own methods, the methods are far less important than the results.

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Hang around. Im not sure you will agree after you see some methods. Some methods are just wrong regardless of the results.

KMG, Hammertime,

You are both correct in my world. An inexperienced keeper's best and safest path to success is to duplicate what others have done and take their advice. Once you have an advanced understanding of your animals and the things that can go wrong by all means experiment. At this stage you will know when your experiment is going wrong. If no one is experimenting we will never find out new things. I do not go by the book on everything I do. Sometimes things work, sometimes they don't but I have enough experience to know when I would be putting my animals in danger.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

KMG, Hammertime,

You are both correct in my world. An inexperienced keeper's best and safest path to success is to duplicate what others have done and take their advice. Once you have an advanced understanding of your animals and the things that can go wrong by all means experiment. At this stage you will know when your experiment is going wrong. If no one is experimenting we will never find out new things. I do not go by the book on everything I do. Sometimes things work, sometimes they don't but I have enough experience to know when I would be putting my animals in danger.

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Yep, and until the experiment has been properly tested you should keep it to yourself. I have done that. I have no problem with people trying knew things. However when I give advice to new keepers I give the basic and safe advice. They need time to learn and become experienced keepers at which point they will be armed with the proper knowledge and can do just what you said.

I don't think we are that far from thinking the same thing.

As I always say...... What works in one house may not work in another.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

As I always say...... What works in one house may not work in another.

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This is the answer to the back and forth in this thread. Everyone has good points but it comes down to exactly this "what works in one house may not work in another."

I use an rhp that runs the length of my cage with a heat mat and this is not how anyone I heard of runs them. The typical 1/3 cage rhp does not work in this house. I had to run a heat mat both hot and cold before I switched to an rhp and now my temps are flawless and my male bp is happier. Also my heat mat doesn't have to be set as high to get the correct hot spot 92 under sub and 90 on top. My female is in a cage half the size and she has 2 mats and she is happy. I know these methods are not what most people use but its what I have to do to keep my temps right and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

I also would like to add maybe the 2-3 degree drop in ambient could be an issue do to the 60 degree basement. If it is a problem maybe adding another heat source would be good idea or an oil filled heater. If your basement is to big to heat with an oil heater you could always throw up a couple walls to make a little room for snake and then the heat from the heater would have nowhere to escape.

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Originally Posted by chrid16371

... it comes down to exactly this "what works in one house may not work in another."

I use an rhp that runs the length of my cage with a heat mat and this is not how anyone I heard of runs them. The typical 1/3 cage rhp does not work in this house. I had to run a heat mat both hot and cold before I switched to an rhp and now my temps are flawless ......

I also would like to add maybe the 2-3 degree drop in ambient could be an issue do to the 60 degree basement. If it is a problem maybe adding another heat source would be good idea or an oil filled heater.....

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I use an rhp that way too. It keeps the temperature perfect in a glass tank in the living room, which gets down to about 55 degrees in the winter. The other reason to do this is that with such a big difference between the temp in the cage and in the room, you will tend to get cold spots that will get condensation if the heating element isn't evenly spread over the whole thing.

But suffice it to say that a method of heating that works in a 75 degree room will not necessarily work in a 55 degree room. But it is way, way cheaper and more efficient to buy and run an 80 watt rhp than to heat the entire room for the sake of one cage with a 1500 watt space heater.

The big variable that determines whether a particular method works in your house or not is the ambient temperature. It's almost silly to ask heating related questions without providing that information. It would be like asking how much it will cost to heat your house for the winter without mentioning whether you live in Florida or Manitoba.

I've been watching videos of some of the top ball python breeders and in their early videos everyone recommends 95F, in fact the PetCo website says to have a hot spot of 95F, probably copying what these big breeders said early on. However, after years of research they have changed their story. Most now say that 95F kills sperm and results in infertile eggs. They now keep their thermostats set at 88F and have wonderful results breeding ball pythons. Don't be fooled by a temp gun and substrate temps, some of my ball pythons like to dig down in the substrate to get closer to the hot spot. Once they figure it out they will always be buried in substrate. I suggest keeping substrate pretty thin above the heat tape, thicker on the cool end. Of course they tend to move the substrate around anyway.

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Originally Posted by cchardwick

I've been watching videos of some of the top ball python breeders and in their early videos everyone recommends 95F, in fact the PetCo website says to have a hot spot of 95F, probably copying what these big breeders said early on. However, after years of research they have changed their story. Most now say that 95F kills sperm and results in infertile eggs. They now keep their thermostats set at 88F and have wonderful results breeding ball pythons. Don't be fooled by a temp gun and substrate temps, some of my ball pythons like to dig down in the substrate to get closer to the hot spot. Once they figure it out they will always be buried in substrate. I suggest keeping substrate pretty thin above the heat tape, thicker on the cool end. Of course they tend to move the substrate around anyway.

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Well we all know how great Petco is with snakes. They need to give it up.

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Originally Posted by KMG

Well we all know how great Petco is with snakes. They need to give it up.

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I completely agree, they seem to know very little about reptiles, especially snakes. Before I adopted my BP, I went there in attempt to gain some info, but all they could do was read the caresheet. They also give horrible advice : "You do not need to regulate this heat mat". I wonder how many people based their knowledge solely on people like this. I'm glad that I have some background knowledge on reptiles and took the time to do a substantial amount of research.

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Originally Posted by KMG

It would be awful to learn something that may help your snakes. A good owner is not afraid of learning the unknown about their pets, equipment, and techniques, trying to know all they can relating to the hobby.

For example, like how to sex their animals but that requires research too.

We all started at zero. Some choose to learn and become knowledge owners able to help others here while others hover just above zero and do little more than muddy the water.

You've made your choice. Good luck.

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KMG, I did look at UTHs some time back. I’m not going to say that I know everything about undertank heating options nor the specifics of how they function or are set up. However, based on what I read when I first acquired my snakes and the information I have seen since, I have determined that they are not an optimal way to heat my enclosures. This is due to the depth of substrate in my snake’s cages, the size of said cages, the type of cage that I have, and the temps that my rooms dip to in winter.

Given this, I currently have no desire to go digging into the bowels of cyberspace in the hopes of finding further information for a product that does not appear to be applicable to my situation. And I really don’t believe that I differ from most other people in this regard. I’ve researched something enough to determine that it will not work for me, then moved on to researching other options and products. To do otherwise seems like a time resource sink, and thus my response to ‘research it’ is ‘thank you, but no thank you’.

Of course, if you care to explain how reducing the primary heat source will not effect any changes to the overall ambient temperature, then, please, enlighten me. But I will ask that you explain the reason for this because I expect heat to radiate out from its source. My laptop meets this expectation even though providing heat is not its intended purpose.

Similarly, if you really feel that the ability to sex a snake is essential to keeping them, then you will need to convince me of the benefit, or need, for this. Because I can’t see it as being important. At this time, if I really wanted to know what sex my guys are, then I will take them to the vet or the local rescue rather than subject them to my amateurish attempts. As I have no desire to breed them, knowing their sex would only serve to satisfy my curiosity. Unless the purpose is to be cognizant of the chance of parthenogenesis? Or does knowing the sex determine some aspect of care of which I am unaware?

For me, researching either of these topics further is akin to knowing normal values for the specific gravity of urine. Pointless, unless you’re in the field of veterinary medicine. Without a useful application for any of the above listed topics, I will continue in my willful ignorance of them while I explore other avenues of knowledge for which I can foresee an application.

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Originally Posted by MandMac

KMG, I did look at UTHs some time back. I’m not going to say that I know everything about undertank heating options nor the specifics of how they function or are set up. However, based on what I read when I first acquired my snakes and the information I have seen since, I have determined that they are not an optimal way to heat my enclosures. This is due to the depth of substrate in my snake’s cages, the size of said cages, the type of cage that I have, and the temps that my rooms dip to in winter.

Given this, I currently have no desire to go digging into the bowels of cyberspace in the hopes of finding further information for a product that does not appear to be applicable to my situation. And I really don’t believe that I differ from most other people in this regard. I’ve researched something enough to determine that it will not work for me, then moved on to researching other options and products. To do otherwise seems like a time resource sink, and thus my response to ‘research it’ is ‘thank you, but no thank you’.

Of course, if you care to explain how reducing the primary heat source will not effect any changes to the overall ambient temperature, then, please, enlighten me. But I will ask that you explain the reason for this because I expect heat to radiate out from its source. My laptop meets this expectation even though providing heat is not its intended purpose.

Similarly, if you really feel that the ability to sex a snake is essential to keeping them, then you will need to convince me of the benefit, or need, for this. Because I can’t see it as being important. At this time, if I really wanted to know what sex my guys are, then I will take them to the vet or the local rescue rather than subject them to my amateurish attempts. As I have no desire to breed them, knowing their sex would only serve to satisfy my curiosity. Unless the purpose is to be cognizant of the chance of parthenogenesis? Or does knowing the sex determine some aspect of care of which I am unaware?

For me, researching either of these topics further is akin to knowing normal values for the specific gravity of urine. Pointless, unless you’re in the field of veterinary medicine. Without a useful application for any of the above listed topics, I will continue in my willful ignorance of them while I explore other avenues of knowledge for which I can foresee an application.

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So you don't use UTHs and claim to not know that much about them but yet you get involved in a conversation discussing their function? OK

BTW, You most certainly did compare the function of a UTH to that of a CHE. They are completely different devices. Built to do similar jobs in different ways. A UTH is intended to create a hotspot for the animal on the cage floor. They are not intended to heat the air of the cage. Yes, they are going to add some heat but it is a minimal amount. A UTH should never be run at a temp that is high enough that you see a large rise in the ambient temp.

A CHE is a great device that can deliver a good hotspot while also having heat spilled out to warm the ambient temp. They work well and I have used many before getting one heated snake room. I have one CHE that ran 24/7 at full power for almost 2 years. It still works I just not longer need it so its put up. They have their place and sound like they work well for you.

Im done here. Yall have at it.

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Originally Posted by KMG

BTW, You most certainly did compare the function of a UTH to that of a CHE.

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I'll concede that point.

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Originally Posted by KMG

...Built to do similar jobs in different ways. A UTH is intended to create a hotspot for the animal on the cage floor. They are not intended to heat the air of the cage. Yes, they are going to add some heat but it is a minimal amount. A UTH should never be run at a temp that is high enough that you see a large rise in the ambient temp...

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The bolded section is all I was saying when I agreed with the OP.

And good day to you.

Correct me if I'm wrong but KMG whole point is you can't compare a che to an uth bc they have different means of supplying heat. Also that you shouldn't be replying if your not familiar with the OP equipment bc in no way will that help him.

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Originally Posted by chrid16371

Correct me if I'm wrong but KMG whole point is you can't compare a che to an uth bc they have different means of supplying heat. Also that you shouldn't be replying if your not familiar with the OP equipment bc in no way will that help him.

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If it was, then I have misunderstood...pretty much the entire conversation.


I thought the original point was that changing the settings for a UTH would not effect the other temperatures in the enclosure.


However, I would argue that it has become apparent that what was intended was that changing the setting for a UTH will not significanlty impact the other temperatures of an enclosure. And this makes perfect sense.


Similarly, it was not my intention to compare UTH and CHE in an apples to apples fashion. Though obviously that is the only possible interpretation of my comment.