Retained shed, wrinkled blue eyes

Hi,
I am a new member. I have 6 cornsnakes and 2 ball pythons.
My balls are Camille who is a baby around 9 mos old and
Sudan, who will be three in July and is 3 1/2 feet long.

I am new to balls and kept Camille's humidity level up to about 80%
since she had her first, bad shed with me in January. I got her in Dec.
She developed a RI almost two weeks ago...she wheezed a bit and clicked.
I took her to a vet who put her on oral Baytril for three weeks. She hates
it. I have been told by other snake owners to give her shots but my vet said she was too young. So she has gotten 5 doses of the med and hasn't wheezed in two days.
She did a beautiful shed three weeks ago that was all in one piece. From the high humidity I am sure. But I did'n't know any better but now I do.
I have read the care sheet here on the forum and now have her temps on both sides adjusted along with the humidity. I have it lower so she gets rid of the RI.
My question is should I keep her for three weeks on the Baytril. I can't feed her while she is on it as I was told she will regurge since the digestive flora will be all screwed up from the antibiotic. She hasn't eaten now for almost 2 weeks. She only weighs 226grams.

Sudan is new to me. I got him last Thursday. When I got there I saw that he had blue eyes. The lady told me he had been blue for two days. Today is a full week later and he is still blue but his eyes look dry and wrinkly. I emailed the lady and she said it sounds like he is retaining his shed due to the stress from the move. She said she was afraid that would happen. I told her that I wish she had told me that as I would have waited to get him after he had shed at her house. She also told me that when she got him from a breeder a year ago, he had a bad shed and retained his eyecaps. She had to have a vet remove the eyecaps. She said he has been fine since then.
He seems completely blind and is bumping into things in his cage. I know it is new to him but I am worried that he might be completely blind.

What do I do for a retained shed? I have a plastic shoebox with water in his tank and he won't use it. He is supposed to be a calm, nice snake but he is a bit agitated right now and I don't blame him.
I have his humidity up to about 80 right now trying to help him shed. Temp is 85 on hot side and 80 on cool.

I need help fast. What do I do for him?

Linda Lathrop
\___/\___/\__@<
Camille - 7/04 Normal Ball Python
Sudan - 7/25/02 Normal Ball Python
Cree - 2000 Okeetee corn
Pauite - 7/04 Regular corn
Spirit - 7/04 Bubblegum snow corn
Spot - 1/04 Creamsicle corn
Chu'a - 7/04 Ghost corn
Edgar A Poe - 6/04 Blizzard corn

good to see you here linda i email you just a little bit ago about this. and then come here and see you have join one of the best groups out there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Linda

Hi,
"I am a new member. I have 6 cornsnakes and 2 ball pythons.
My balls are Camille who is a baby around 9 mos old and
Sudan, who will be three in July and is 3 1/2 feet long."

Welcome!

"I am new to balls and kept Camille's humidity level up to about 80%
since she had her first, bad shed with me in January."

I might be wrong but I believe 80% humidity is WAY too much for a ball python. You should keep her at 50-60% humidity. (forgive me if I'm wrong). If you are helping her with a shed you should give her a soak in lukewarn water to assist the shed instead of raising the humidity to 80%.

"I got her in Dec.
She developed a RI almost two weeks ago...she wheezed a bit and clicked.
I took her to a vet who put her on oral Baytril for three weeks. She hates
it. I have been told by other snake owners to give her shots but my vet said she was too young. So she has gotten 5 doses of the med and hasn't wheezed in two days.
She did a beautiful shed three weeks ago that was all in one piece. From the high humidity I am sure. But I did'n't know any better but now I do.
I have read the care sheet here on the forum and now have her temps on both sides adjusted along with the humidity. I have it lower so she gets rid of the RI.
My question is should I keep her for three weeks on the Baytril. I can't feed her while she is on it as I was told she will regurge since the digestive flora will be all screwed up from the antibiotic. She hasn't eaten now for almost 2 weeks. She only weighs 226grams."

You can keep her on it for three weeks. I do not believe that it will cause any problems if you dont feed her for 2 or 3 more weeks. That wieght might be an issue though. How old is she?But hen again if it seems to be working you might be able to take her off the meds

"Sudan is new to me. I got him last Thursday. When I got there I saw that he had blue eyes. The lady told me he had been blue for two days. Today is a full week later and he is still blue but his eyes look dry and wrinkly. I emailed the lady and she said it sounds like he is retaining his shed due to the stress from the move. She said she was afraid that would happen. I told her that I wish she had told me that as I would have waited to get him after he had shed at her house. She also told me that when she got him from a breeder a year ago, he had a bad shed and retained his eyecaps. She had to have a vet remove the eyecaps. She said he has been fine since then.
He seems completely blind and is bumping into things in his cage. I know it is new to him but I am worried that he might be completely blind.

What do I do for a retained shed? I have a plastic shoebox with water in his tank and he won't use it. He is supposed to be a calm, nice snake but he is a bit agitated right now and I don't blame him.
I have his humidity up to about 80 right now trying to help him shed. Temp is 85 on hot side and 80 on cool.

I need help fast. What do I do for him?"

If he has a retained eye cap you shoyld use olive oil or vegetable oil (can't remeber which one. and gently rub her eyecap with a Q-Tip.

Linda Lathrop
\___/\___/\__@<
Camille - 7/04 Normal Ball Python
Sudan - 7/25/02 Normal Ball Python
Cree - 2000 Okeetee corn
Pauite - 7/04 Regular corn
Spirit - 7/04 Bubblegum snow corn
Spot - 1/04 Creamsicle corn
Chu'a - 7/04 Ghost corn
Edgar A Poe - 6/04 Blizzard corn

---

it baby oil not olive or vegetable.

oh and welcome to the site!

Just because I'm a nag...

Hot side temps should be 90-95. 85 is too low, unless its nighttime.

Is the whole shed stuck, or just the eyecaps? If it's the whole shed, like Jon said, I would take him, put him in like a Rubbermaid shoebox type box with a lid, and put just a bit of room-temp water. Put him in it for 30-45 mins (he'll probably hate you for it). When he comes out, you should see the skin is just hanging off. I use a wet washcloth and VERY GENTLY rub it off. Other methods are putting him in a wet pillowcase or a wet towel and letting him crawl around to get the shed off, but I didn't have any luck with those methods.

I'm sure you know this now, but keeping the humidity at 80% is exactly why your girl got an RI. You only want humidity that high during the shed phase. Otherwise, Jon's right again, 50-60% is more than adequate.

If the vet said to keep her on the meds for 3 more weeks, you probably should do it. She'll be fine, food wise. They can go months and months without food with no ill effects. Regurgitating meals is VERY tough on their digestive system, so if the vet said there's a risk if you feed, I definitely wouldn't do it until the digestive system is back on track. You could do more harm than good, by far.

I wouldn't worry about that weight TOO much, my guy was about 2' and only 225 g. when I took him to the vet a couple months ago. He was a problem feeder though, and has bulked up handsomely (aka a ridiculous amount) since feeding regularly. As long as you feed appropriate-sized prey regularly, you'll see your BP flourish in no time, I'm sure. :)

I'm by no means an expert. Just going by my personal experiences, feel free to do with them what you will. Good luck!

Even during nighttime, warm side temps should not go below 94-95, and cool side temps 80-84. Humidity can be around 50%, and no higher than 70% during shedding. If they are having problems shedding, you can add a humid hide made out of a gladware container(or other disposable plastic container), cut a hole in the side big enough for the snake to enter, place moist paper towels inside, put the lid back on and place the whole container on the warm side of the enclosure.

What are you using to measure temps? Also, what are you using for bedding? Different beddings hold heat and humidity differently.

Not feeding while she is on the antibiotics should be ok, but you can add some acidophilus(Snakes can have that, correct?) to help her build the gut flora back up. You can find it at any health store(GNC, etc). You may need to ask the vet for the dose. Just keep her warm, and her humidity low(45% is great), and only mess with her as need be.

With Sudan, I would place him in a rubbermaid container with a lid(small enough to fit inside the cage) and place about 1/2" of warm water in it, and leave him in there for about an hour. Just so he doesn't get cold, place the container, with him inside, on the warm side of his enclosure. He may just be dehydrated, or the eyecaps may be retained. After he soaks for an hour, let him run through a damp, rough towel, and see if that doesn't help get any of that off. If they don't come off, you can use mineral oil or even polysporin to lube his eyes up. NO baby oil, it is not meant to go on eyes.

Drop his humidity to about 70%, but try the humidity box for an hour. It should help. You dont want his enclosure wet for too long, or he could develop some scale rot, and that would just be another stressor to deal with.

Hope your guys get better, and update us on their progress. Welcome to the site, by the way! :)

Thanks to all of you who have posted. I really appreciate it.

I have a plastic shoebox with warm water and a rough washtowel in it and he stayed in for about 5 minutes. It has a hole in it and hopefully he will enter it.

His eyes are still blue. He went right into his warm side hidey.

This is what the caresheet on this forum says for temp/humidity. Does anyone disagree with this? These are the settings (90temp/55humidity) I have Camille's cage set at now.

TEMPERATURE
~90F (warm side)
~80F (cool side)
75 or below is unhealthy
HUMIDITY
50-60%
70% (or humid hide) impending shed

The caresheet also recomments a special type of temp/humidity measurement...a hygrometer I think it said. I use the round type that look like dials.
What type do you all use? Brand names would be great.
Thanks again.
Linda

If you have another box that doesn't have a hole in it, try and use that. You want him to stay in it so he gets the shed off, especially if it is encircling his body and his eyecaps are still on.

Alot of people have had better luck using higher temperatures. Temps and humidity need to be measured accurately with a digital thermometer. You can find a great combo unit at WalMart that will measure two different temp spots and the relative humidity. The brand is Acu-Rite, and it runs about $15. It can be found in the outdoor thermometer section, which is behind the household paint section. With this unit, you place the unit itself on the floor of the cool side of the enclosure, and run the probe over to the warm side and place it under the warm side hide. This way you will get accurate measurements of what temps the snake is actually experiencing. The dial-types that are found at the petstore rarely work correctly, and the snake might be burning or freezing, and you not know it.

Temps on the warm side need to be 94-95 all of the time, not just during the day. Night drops are only used for breeding. If the snake is not breeding, then it just sets it up for not wanting to eat consistently. Cool side temps should be 80-84. Temps below 80 will again set the snake up for not wanting to eat, because it most likely is thinking that it won't be able to get enough heat to its body to properly digest food. If Camille is the snake with the RI, then increasing the temperatures to the above ranges will help her heal faster and feel better sooner. How are you heating the cages? 55% is good, but no higher in the sick girl's cage.

Just remember, WalMart will probably end up being your best friend :) As well as Home Depot/Lowe's. These places help out alot as pet stores jack up their prices and try to make you believe that the only place to get supplies is at the pet store.

Let us know if there is anything else you need to know. Hope this clears a few things up for you :)

Becky,
Thanks for the info. Couple of questions.
I read online and was told by a python breeder that anything over 90 can cause physical damage to the snake.
Comments?
Also, do I need to buy 2 of those units at Walmart? One for the cool side also?

Linda

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Linda

Becky,
Thanks for the info. Couple of questions.
I read online and was told by a python breeder that anything over 90 can cause physical damage to the snake.
Comments?
Also, do I need to buy 2 of those units at Walmart? One for the cool side also?

Linda

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I would say that is dependent on how big your enclosure is. If you have something small, I would imagine one unit would be sufficient. However, I think it was Becky who posted a pic of her enclosure that showed two units; one on each side of the enclosure with each probe going to the hide on the opposite side of the tank. I have a 10 gallon right now for my hatchling, but I can be quite anal at times so I went with the two units. Maybe it's overkill, but I know I'll be wanting/needing two units when I get a larger enclosure... so might as well do it now. :D

Camille's tank is a 30 gallon one and Sudan's is a 50 gallon.
Camille's is a taller type and Sudan's is the wide breeder type that isn't as tall.
Should I use 2 in each one?

Linda

There are alot of breeders on this site that keep their snakes at 94-95 on the hot side and their snakes eat on a consistent basis and are just as healthy. 90 degrees is just too low for the warm side, and will make the snake not eat consistently, therefore stressing out the owner :) My girl is kept at these temps and she is very healthy, very fat and happy as a clam. I don't know where other people have gotten their information, but they are most likely not breeders and are going off of misleading information someone else has passed off as fact. I know it gets confusing. Maybe if the entire enclosure was kept at 95, I can see how the snake could have some problems. But if the cool side is a good 10 degrees cooler than the warm side, and the snake has a place to get away from the warm side(if there is a proper gradient as there should be), then there won't be any issues. I think the main reason why alot of caresheets say 90 degrees is because many new keepers start out using the analog thermometers and place them on the glass up near the top of the cage. First, the analog temp and humidity gauges are doodie, and second, placing them near the top of the cage will not get an accurate reading of what the snake is experiencing anyway. I think anything over 95 on the hot side should be avoided and anything over 85 on the cool side as well. Nothing lower than 80 throughout the enclosure.

I'm writing a book and didn't even know it. ;) About the digital unit, no, you don't need a second one. I have two just because I'm picky and retentive about Amani's care. Here's a pic of what I have:
http://img132.echo.cx/img132/7557/pict00021nv.th.jpg
top view:
http://img132.echo.cx/img132/5325/pict00033xs.th.jpg

With one unit, you can place the unit flat on the floor of the cool side, and run the probe outside of the enclosure, and then back inside(since it is 6' long and you don't really want 6' of cord inside the cage) and place the probe under the warm side hide. The way I have mine is, they are both velcroed to the side of the tub(1 unit for warm/1 for cool), and then the probe is placed under the hide on each side. This accurately measures the temps that the snake is experiencing.

With the sick girl, keep the humidity as low as possible. If her enclosure is big enough, you can give her a humid hide(Take a look at our DIY section), so she won't be exposed to the humidity constantly. With the lil' boy, humidity can be around 65% or so. Have you tried putting him in an escape-proof plastic shoebox with some water yet? Hopefully that will help get his eyes fixed and get all of that extra mess off of him. Poor guy.

Anywho, keep asking those questions. We love 'em! :) Let us know how it all goes.

Becky,

You are great!! Thanks for the pics. My guys are in the typical glass tanks with screen tops so I have to cover them almost completely to get the temp and humidty up.
I use an under the tank mat on the hot side and a red heat/basking lamp on the hot side to get the temp on the hot side to 90. I can't get it any higher.
hmmm...unless I use a 100w red bulb instead of the 75w. But that might make it too hot. sigh....this is frustrating.

I put Camille's red heating lamp on the side of her tank as it is so tall. It is right against the glass and has caused no breakage, etc.
Sudan's is on top of the screen but I can move it down if need be.

I am very anal when it comes to my pets. Once you know me, you will figure that out. LOL
I'm doing 2 probes in each of their cages.

Sudan is NOT a lil boy. He is a BIG boy. He is 3 ft 7 inches long and will be three years old on July 25.
I put him in a shoebox for 1/2 an hour and then checked on him. Don't want him suffocating and he was very laid back and mellow. I took the lid off the shoebox and he stayed in there. I have to go back and check again soon.
One eye seems to be turning normal partially but the other is still very blue.
I think he has retained eyecaps from before and the lady just didn't tell me the truth.
If and when he sheds and the eyecaps don't come off, I am going to have to drive quite aways to a snake vet but it will be worth it. I may have to have them removed.
I also put a pair of my underwear (no laughing now) in his cage so he gets used to my scent. Yes, they are used. LOL

How do I get approved to attach photos?

Linda

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Linda

hmmm...unless I use a 100w red bulb instead of the 75w. But that might make it too hot. sigh....this is frustrating.

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This is the lamp dimmer that I use with my 75 watt (I also one on the UTH as well). It's made by Lutron and can be found in Home Depot for about $10 back by the light switches (Lutron has it's own little section for their dimmers). If you have to, get the 100 watt bulb and plug it into one of these dimmers. You'll be good to go.;)

http://www.lutron.com/lampdimmers/credenzaplugin.jpg

Ok, I'm off to Home Depot! :) I like that one, no wiring involved. Good find!

Linda, you sound just like me. I'm anal about everything; my snake, my rats, my frog...

I would try that 100w, but put it on top of the screen instead of the glass. I'd be wary of how hot that glass can get, and wouldn't want her touching it and getting burned. What are you covering the screen with to keep in the heat/humidity? Con-Tac paper(shelf liner) works great, as does Glad Press N' Seal. Cover the whole screen lid with it, except cut a circle 1" bigger in diameter than the lamp. And then cut out small triangles at each corner for ventilation. OR You can always turn Camille's tank on it's side, and she will have more room. I know there's a picture on here somewhere.
Here it is, thank you OreoGaborio for the pic :) :
[img]http://www.ball-pythons.net/gallery/.../5/Snake42.JPG[/img]

That is awesome that Sudan is getting better. Glad he stayed in the container. If you are worried about him not getting enough air, poke some holes near the top(not the lid) with a soldering iron or a small drill bit. The shoeboxes aren't air tight though, so there shouldn't be any worries. I'm sorry for calling him a "little" boy :) It's just an affectionate term I use with everything, LoL.

That may help a bit. If you need clarification on anything, let us know.

I went in to check on Sudan and saw that he had shed an entire one piece shed. It was in a clump but I pulled it apart and it was one piece but the eye pieces were missing..although there was one piece hanging off the eye area of the shed. So it looked like one was retained BUT
I took him out and saw that one eye is still blue. I think it has multiple eyecaps on it and the other was dark, had one eyecap hanging off and looked like there is still one on that eye.

He is very head shy. I held him for about 15 minutes so I could get a closer look.
I know he had retained eyecaps before because the lady I got him from told me when I picked him up. But it looks like they haven't been coming off in his last sheds even though I was told they did.

So, what do I do? I have read different comments...use mineral oil, baby oil, vegatable oil, etc.
What do I do and how do I do it so he doesn't get hurt or lose his eyesight?

I would use mineral oil as it has no added fragrances like baby oil does. You may have to work on that eye pretty meticulously, but his vision may already be messed up. Is the blue eye rough or is it smooth like a normal eyecap? Glad he had a great shed.

If you want to really lube his eye up so that it stays on there for an extended period, try some neosporin. That should help penetrate those dry eyecaps and help get them off without harming the actual eye. Any breeders out there, have ya'll used Vaseline too? Just rub in some neosporin a few times a day so the remaining eyecaps can get soft and hopefully fall off.

Hope this helps a bit :)

I went to WalMart tonight and I think every herper must have read the post about this unit as they only had two left. I grabbed them both and ran with them. :)
Couple of questions. It says the probe is for outdoor temps but I am assuming that it is the one that you use for the hot side...just running the wire along the bottom of the tank under the substrate.
How does it keep track of the cool side? Something built right into the unit so it measures what is right there?
And humidty...is it only going to measure the humidity on the cool side?
Is that why you have two units? To measure the humidity on both sides?

I would want to know the humidity in the entire tank, not just on the cool side.
My tanks are both much larger than the one you show in the pics.
So I think I need to go to another WalMart and get two more of these units.

Am I anal, yes I am, after what I have gone through with Camille and causing her RI. And now having Sudan, I don't want him to get one either.

Oh and I also bought clear contact paper to cover the screen on top as recommended by my anal new friend, SatanicIntentions. :cool:

Quote:

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I would want to know the humidity in the entire tank, not just on the cool side.
My tanks are both much larger than the one you show in the pics.
So I think I need to go to another WalMart and get two more of these units.

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We all have to setup our enclosures to be comfortable not only for the BP, but also for the keeper's mental state of mind, ;) .

I have a 40g breeder with just one accurite unit and the humidity level stays consistent thru out the whole tank because of the glad wrap on top.

HTH

More ball news. Sudan did shed as I posted before. I am going to try to soak him in a shoebox one more time for the retained eyecaps and if that doesn't work I am going to try to put Neosporin on the bad eye.
But, tonight was feeding night for everyone and I hadn't fed him yet since I got him. I got out a big mouse, heated it up extra hot, ran hot water over it, used the tongs and before I could even dance it in front of him....WHAMMO he struck at that mouse and actually pulled it out of the tongs before I could let go.
What an eater!!! After all the issues I have had with Camille not eating, to have a ball that eats like this is soooooo GREAT!

I finally got all of Camille's shed off of her. She lets me run water over her...sort of like a waterfall and seems to like that.
No swimming pools for this bathing beauty. I discovered that she had one hanging eye cap which I hadn't even noticed before and it came right off.

I didn't give her her Baytril tonight. It has been 11 days since she was at the vet and started the Baytril. The vet wanted her on it for 21 days. I will admit I missed two days in that time. I have not heard her wheezing or clicking at all. I am wondering if the med plus the increased heat and lowered humidity got rid of the RI.

What do you all think? Should I stop the Baytril, which I think the Dr. overdosaged her since she wasn't that bad, as I would like to feed her as soon as I can.
Last time she ate was April 12. She only weighed 226 at the vet and that was 11 days ago.
I would like to get some food into her.
When do you all think I can start feeding her again...meaning when will the flora in her gut be good for digesting after being on Baytril. Last dose was last night (Sunday night).