BP Food Size and UVB Lighting

So I was listening to some exotic animal vets talk about reptile care and I learned some new things. I just wanted to know what you guys thought.

The first thing was food size. The vet said that food size should be around the diameter of a snake's head. I know this is true for chameleons and probably other lizards, but I've always read and fed my snake food that is the size of the fattest part of his body. If I fed the diameter of his head I'd probably have to go back to rat pinkies, it's a very big size difference. So I'm wondering, which is correct?

The second was UVB lighting. The vets agreed that nocturnal reptiles don't necessarily require UVB, but they said that studies have shown they definitely benefit from it. I've decided to hang a UVB bulb above my BP's cage. What do you guys think, just curious. :D

From what I've gathered from the webs,
Food size: fattest part of body, or 10-15% of body weight
Lighting: not necessary as BPs do not typically bask in the sun during the day. However, uvb "aids with bone formation (or something like that)".



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The correct answer would be to find a new vet.
Food the size of their head? That vet is an idiot.........SMH

No larger than body diameter is a good food size.
UV is not needed.

UVB helps the reptile synthesize D3 which is used to help the body absorb calcium. Now there is the whole argument of how much D3 is absorbed when fed calcium with added D3 but that's a whole nother subject. Sure UVB light wont hurt a reptile unless you are using something crazy like a T5 HO at 4" and will be beneficial but since BPs pretty much never come out in the day, not sure how much it will help. My boas are out pretty much all the time so for them, a 5.0 UVB tube wouldn't hurt but I don't use them. I just take everyone out for about 15-30 mins of sun every couple days in the summer time.

As for food size, about the thickness of the thickest part of the snake give or take a little. Certain snakes are more tolerant than others. Pythons can eat huge food. BCIs can take pretty large foods. BCCs go smaller on as they are more prone to regurgitate if too large. Boas are more rigid so I wouldn't go too much larger than their thickness. Pythons, I've fed Dottie rats that made her look like she ate a football as a baby and she literally waddled into her hide and sat in there for like 3 days and then was back out ready for round 2 lol.

Meals only as big around as the head? That's crazy. Look at the body proportions of an adult ball python

Hit reply too soon!
Meals only as big around as the head? That's crazy. Look at the body proportions of an adult ball python, their heads are much smaller than their middle SD. By that metric, adult bp's would eat nothing larger than mice, which is clearly not the case either on captivity or in the wild. Those feral burms in Florida sometimes easy alligators; wild retics and African rock pythons can eat deer. They certainly don't stop at food the size of their head. Pythons have a whole bunch of amazing adaptations that allow them to swallow large meals, like being able to unhinge their jaws, stretchy necks, being able to stick their windpipe out like a snorkel so they can still breathe while they do it, etc. It's what they're buit for.

As for uvb, it's all well and good, but it can't possibly do much for an animal that will at most be exposed to it for the time it takes to slither from one dark hole to another. I would get a new vet!

Edit: there are other snake species that are out and about during the day and also eat smaller food... Could it be that they were talking about one of those?

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

UVB helps the reptile synthesize D3 which is used to help the body absorb calcium. Now there is the whole argument of how much D3 is absorbed when fed calcium with added D3 but that's a whole nother subject. Sure UVB light wont hurt a reptile unless you are using something crazy like a T5 HO at 4" and will be beneficial but since BPs pretty much never come out in the day, not sure how much it will help. My boas are out pretty much all the time so for them, a 5.0 UVB tube wouldn't hurt but I don't use them. I just take everyone out for about 15-30 mins of sun every couple days in the summer time.

As for food size, about the thickness of the thickest part of the snake give or take a little. Certain snakes are more tolerant than others. Pythons can eat huge food. BCIs can take pretty large foods. BCCs go smaller on as they are more prone to regurgitate if too large. Boas are more rigid so I wouldn't go too much larger than their thickness. Pythons, I've fed Dottie rats that made her look like she ate a football as a baby and she literally waddled into her hide and sat in there for like 3 days and then was back out ready for round 2 lol.

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Yep! She talked about how UVB helps convert inactive VitD3 into usable Vit D3. The vets were also talking about supplementing Vit. D3 with those calcium+D3 powders and they said there wasn't a need, pure calcium is the only thing needed. Vit. D3 is present in animal skin so for snakes at least they're getting it from their whole prey.
I think what they were mainly trying to emphasize was that nocturnal reptiles can get along fine without the UVB light, but having the UVB is beneficial.

I don't think I'll be changing my snake's food size sinces he eems to be capable of swallowing the weanling rats. One of the vets seemed to be pretty set on the whole diameter of the head rule. The other one was more ok with feeding the bigger foods.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

The correct answer would be to find a new vet.
Food the size of their head? That vet is an idiot.........SMH

No larger than body diameter is a good food size.
UV is not needed.

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Actually they're from a really well known exotic animal hospital. Which was why I was surprised when the vet talked about the feeding size. :O

@Coluber42 : I think they were talking about all snakes in general? Probably more focused on ball pythons or boas since those are the one's people usually keep as pets.

Sounds like one of those Vets spend more time studying arts and crafts than Anatomy and Physiology.

Okay I don't want this thread to just be people bashing the vets, lol. They're actually really great, caring, and knowledgeable people. I'm thinking that food size recommendation was a way to prevent owners from giving food too big. :snake: Or maybe she just didn't know as much about snakes as the other vet.

I have to think that the vets were talking about certain species of snakes and not all snakes. Boas and pythons have a skin fold or flap on the underside of their jaw which, along with the ability to running their jaws, allows them to eat prey larger than the size of their head. (Sorry for any misuse of terms) If we were to feed our balls prey no larger than their heads, then I think we would be permanently starving them. Since I've been hearing a lot about obesity in reptiles, perhaps the vets are recommending underfeeding intentionally?

So far as uvb lights go, I think it's obviously not a necessity. However, I have heard other people saying that they do benefit from it. I haven't seen any scientific evidence for this, but I have seen images of ball pythons hanging out under uvb lights, and I found an old book titled Snakes of Africa in which the author noted that royals could occasionally be found basking.

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Originally Posted by MandMac

I have to think that the vets were talking about certain species of snakes and not all snakes. Boas and pythons have a skin fold or flap on the underside of their jaw which, along with the ability to running their jaws, allows them to eat prey larger than the size of their head. (Sorry for any misuse of terms) If we were to feed our balls prey no larger than their heads, then I think we would be permanently starving them. Since I've been hearing a lot about obesity in reptiles, perhaps the vets are recommending underfeeding intentionally?

So far as uvb lights go, I think it's obviously not a necessity. However, I have heard other people saying that they do benefit from it. I haven't seen any scientific evidence for this, but I have seen images of ball pythons hanging out under uvb lights, and I found an old book titled Snakes of Africa in which the author noted that royals could occasionally be found basking.

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I totally agree with you on the feeding. It's possible the vet has seen too many cases of obese reptiles or choking they would rather recommend underfeeding. I'm not sure though since I didn't ask.

I've been looking for papers on nocturnal reptiles and UVB and it seems like the general concensus is that it's not required but it's shown to benefit them and they have been seen to bask when there is still UVB light outside in the wild.

Anyway, I think I'm going to hang a UVB above my snake's cage now. They said a 5% UVB is enough. :)

Of course it will benefit. The only problem is if your BP is anything like mine, they wont be out during the day to use it. I did use a T8 5.0 on Rosey way back in the day and honestly it didn't seem to do anything. Also remember, any screening or plastic or glass will completely nullify the benefits as UVB cant penetrate glass or plastic. 5.0 is plenty. That is the equivalent of a jungle floor under canopy. 10.0 is like 10-12 pm in a desert scenario. Mid afternoon to late afternoon in a desert scenario, you don't find really anything basking in that time as the UVB is very strong during that time of day.

And yeah Crepuscular reptiles wont really benefit much from UVB as that is not how they evolved. Now beardies, iguana and basking lizards are a different story completely. I mostly quit using UVB tubes on Rosey because there was no way to shield her from coming into contact with the tube and more important to me, sticking her tongue into one end of the tubes sockets. I was always afraid she would get electrocuted. And I didn't want to have screw in a whole huge big mesh wire lamp screen in a 14" high PVC cage. I just take them all out for sun every few days in the summer time and they seem to enjoy it for about 15-30 mins. Then they kind of try and perch under my arms like to shield themselves from the heat and sun lol.

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Originally Posted by blubudgie

Okay I don't want this thread to just be people bashing the vets, lol. They're actually really great, caring, and knowledgeable people. I'm thinking that food size recommendation was a way to prevent owners from giving food too big. :snake: Or maybe she just didn't know as much about snakes as the other vet.

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They are very possible really great and caring people indeed. Knowledgeable, probably so... but maybe not as knowledgeable on snakes. The information they are giving sounds pretty spot on for a lot of lizards and other reptiles. Snakes, not so much. The unfortunate thing about this, is all the people that watched or listened to these vets when they speak like this. You end up with people who have pet BP's that now truly believe feeding their BP a fuzzy mouse for the first two years of it's life is perfectly acceptable and vet recommended. Not to mention buying extra lights that really aren't going to benefit the snake. They'll probably have them buying calcium powder or dusting/gut loading the prey as well.

You seem to already know better about the prey size, which is great. It's just sad that for all the people that hear vets like this talk, only about half will know better. :(

Generally, carnivores don't need UVB. Their prey has enough vitamin D for their needs. Just as a mammalian example---cats aren't even able to synthesize vitamin D from UVB exposure, because they're obligate carnivores and are supposed to live on an all-prey diet. So if rodents have enough vitamin D for cats, I'm sure they have enough for snakes :D. UVB is a much bigger deal for herbivorous reptiles.

As for the head sized prey comment. . .I think that would lead to a very underfed snake! Unless she advises feeding several smaller rodents vs one large rodent.

Snakes do not need uvb or any supplement nutrition. They get everything they need from the bones of the rat and can synthesize calcium just fine. Lizards need the uvb and vitamin suplements because of their insectivorous (sp) diet. The exoskeleton doesn't contain much, if any, calcium and lizards use uvb to synthesize calcium into D3. The exception to the uvb for lizards are leopard geckos, but I can't remeber why.

You can do whatever you please, but I see it as a waste of money and space to have to have another ballast on top of your tank.

I think calcium dusting and gut loading is only for those insect eating reptiles correct? I imagine the calcium from a whole prey with fully developed bones is enough for a snake.

Actually, some carnivores do need UVB. Monitors are a perfect example as well as alligators and crocodiles. Most crepuscular reptiles don't "need" UVB but it definitely wont hurt them and can only benefit them. Now the amount of that benefit vs cost is up to the owner. I mean a T8 light fixture is only like $12 and a Reptisun 5.0 I cant remember the price as I haven't bought T8 bulbs in forever. I only use T5 HOs for my beardie but T8s cant be that expensive. Here is a link to some reading about how UVB works with D3 and stuff http://www.uvguide.co.uk/vitdpathway.htm

As for calcium dusting and multivitamin dusting, it is mainly to offset any imbalance in an omnivores diet since in captivity, we as owners cant or wont give as much of a varied diet as said reptile would encounter in the wild. Also for snakes, wild snakes would eat a much more varied prey diet which in turn would eat a much more varied diet of insects, fruits, vegetables, meats in the form of dead animals and whatever else than we could ever offer in captivity. I mean most of use feed only mice or rats which probably eat cheap food like canned dog or cat food or a cheap "rodent" mix. I for one try and vary my snakes foods with rabbits, rats, mice, and quail if I can find them. My boas seem much more gung ho about eating when they aren't getting the same rat for 3 years in a row lol.

Anyways, that's my take on the whole issue. While I agree, UVB isn't needed crepuscular reptiles, I believe day time snakes like corns, hogs as well as all day time lizards need UVB and even boas, pythons, and anacondas can only benefit from it.