Vermiculite & Perlite are toxic?

So I was chatting with the guy who runs my local herp store and I asked him which he preferred, vermiculite or perlite. His response shocked me because he said neither because THEY ARE BOTH TOXIC!!! Seriously? What the heck? He breeds turtles and his boss breeds over 300 clutches of balls per year and only uses sphagnum/orchid moss. He went on to say that his boss did a bunch of research on the toxins in vermiculite and perlite causing issues with baby reptiles. What does everyone think? I had never heard of using moss as an incubation material before this. I myself have only ever used perlite, but this season, home deopt's perlite was out of stock so I picked up vermiculite. We'll see how that goes when I get eggs in a week or so.

Have you heard of this before?

Have you had success incubating on sphagnum/orchid moss?

Thoughts?

If that was the case, then they wouldn't be the staple substrate of basically the entire hobby. Thousands upon thousnds of hatchlings do just fine each year using them, and I don't expect that to change.

Straight vermiculate/perlite aren't toxic. Some blends have added insecticides/pesticides/herbicides so you have to be careful about what you are buying.

Personally I use the substrateless method, it's cheap, clean, and easy.

uh..... Read the labels

At one time, virtually all of the vermiculite in the U.S was supplied by one mine in Libby MT. It was discovered that the vermiculite there was contaminated with asbestos which is toxic. I believe that the vermiculite in use in the hobby comes from somewhere else now and does not have the asbestos contaminants.

Pretty sure you mean the "vermiculite in use in the hobby comes from somewhere else now and does not have the asbestos contaminants."

I agree all around. If they were toxic and having any affect on hatchlings, i think that most of the hobby/industry wouldn't have been continuing to use it for decades.

MarkS is 100% correct. Vermiculite in the early days of reptile husbandry (1980s-1990s) was contaminated with asbestos. No vermiculite or perlite products nowadays contains asbestos and thus are safe to use.

Whew! Thank you everyone for confirming what I believed. I couldn't imagine that hundreds of thousands of snakes that were incubated with verm were exposed to toxins. I just picked up my sack of vermiculite from home deopt the other day and was super bummed when I spoke with the guy at the reptile store. I thought I was going to have to change my incubation method completely.

A weight ratio of 1:1 vermiculite to water is what I was going to start out with and leave an open container of water in the incubator for humidity. This sounds okay right? From what I've read, it's pretty standard. I was thinking of incorporating the light diffusers/egg crate to keep the eggs off the vermiculite, but I'm not sure it's worth it or better...

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Originally Posted by MiamiRoyalPythons

I was thinking of incorporating the light diffusers/egg crate to keep the eggs off the vermiculite, but I'm not sure it's worth it or better...

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Incorporating the egg crate takes the "guess work" about getting the substrate:water ratio just right. With egg crate, as long as the eggs aren't touching the substrate, you can add way more water than you would without it to ensure there's plenty of humidity in the tub. Either way works, of course, but my thoughts are that substrate-less method is the way to go for the fool-proof factor (and the way that I personally go with).

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

Incorporating the egg crate takes the "guess work" about getting the substrate:water ratio just right. With egg crate, as long as the eggs aren't touching the substrate, you can add way more water than you would without it to ensure there's plenty of humidity in the tub. Either way works, of course, but my thoughts are that substrate-less method is the way to go for the fool-proof factor (and the way that I personally go with).

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That sounds great. I think I'll pick up some egg crate. My only concern would be water condensation dripping on the eggs or condensing on the eggs themselves, causing water spots and mold. Has this ever been an issue? Thanks again

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Originally Posted by MiamiRoyalPythons

That sounds great. I think I'll pick up some egg crate. My only concern would be water condensation dripping on the eggs or condensing on the eggs themselves, causing water spots and mold. Has this ever been an issue? Thanks again

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Sure, but it's also a possibility when not using the egg crate. Just keep an eye on things and act accordingly if you need to.

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Originally Posted by MiamiRoyalPythons

Whew! Thank you everyone for confirming what I believed. I couldn't imagine that hundreds of thousands of snakes that were incubated with verm were exposed to toxins. I just picked up my sack of vermiculite from home deopt the other day and was super bummed when I spoke with the guy at the reptile store. I thought I was going to have to change my incubation method completely.

A weight ratio of 1:1 vermiculite to water is what I was going to start out with and leave an open container of water in the incubator for humidity. This sounds okay right? From what I've read, it's pretty standard. I was thinking of incorporating the light diffusers/egg crate to keep the eggs off the vermiculite, but I'm not sure it's worth it or better...

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Check out this video that I uploaded a few years ago on YouTube, if you follow it to the letter you should have no problems with incubating your clutches.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-wjmsV9gMw

My incubators are bone dry (no open containers of water) I never have to add anything to the nest boxes during the incubation period. Remember it's not the humidity inside the incubator that should concern you, but the humidity inside the nest box that will determine whether the eggs desiccate / dimple too early.

If you are still unsure of what to do feel free to call me anytime at 408-981-6694, I'm always glad to help.

Brian Gundy / For Goodness Snakes

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Originally Posted by For Goodness Snakes

Check out this video that I uploaded a few years ago on YouTube, if you follow it to the letter you should have no problems with incubating your clutches.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-wjmsV9gMw

My incubators are bone dry (no open containers of water) I never have to add anything to the nest boxes during the incubation period. Remember it's not the humidity inside the incubator that should concern you, but the humidity inside the nest box that will determine whether the eggs desiccate / dimple too early.

If you are still unsure of what to do feel free to call me anytime at 408-981-6694, I'm always glad to help.

Brian Gundy / For Goodness Snakes

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Thanks Brian! That was very helpful and answered some other questions I had regarding temp fluctuations. I couldn't quite tell if that was a 6qt tub or a 12qt tub you were using. I would assume the size of tub is important to keep the right amount of substrate at the bottom. I've seen people refer to both of these size tubs as shoe boxes, so I just want to be sure which to use with this formula. Thanks again everyone for your responses!

Hi,
I am living in Thailand and hope to have my first clutch in about 7 months from now.

The vermiculite I bought here comes from China, and apparently there are high chances that it contains asbestos. That's why I would like to find another solution for my incubation.

Could you please tell me more about you "substrate-less" way of incubation please ?

Thanks you