What's New in the Hobby??

Greetings

In my continued effort to reconnect to the BP community, I've been lurking around for the last couple months. It seems like a lot has changed since I was last super-active on here 2-3 years ago; I've seen lots of stuff about the market dropping off and breeding slowing down, and most of the members here seem to have kinda vanished too....


I guess what I'm looking for is a summary of what's new with the BPs since I was last here (late 2013). I get the feeling that something integral to the hobby changed while I was gone, but I can't put my finger on it. It's giving me a huge sense of foreboding...like when you go visit the town you used to live in and it's almost the same, but not quite

Hope to hear back from y'all,

Meph

This is how I feel as well, I fell out of the hobby for the most part while I was in high school and slowly got back into it over the past few years. I'm very curious to see who responds to this and what they say.

I'm glad I'm not alone on this...

I want to try and get back into things; I just hope I'm not too far removed to reintegrate :P

facebook seems to have syphoned off a lot of the forum traffic :(

Yeah, I took a few months off and it's slowed down a lot just in that amount of time!

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I really disagree with the bottom dropping out of the market, so to speak. If you're smart about it and achieve a certain size, I think you can still function as a business. I want to get into it but I plan, long term on focusing on more species that just ball pythons.

I can't really say anything for what has changed, since I'm entirely new myself... Just got my first pet snake a bit over a year ago, and my first BP's a few months ago. However, welcome back!

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Originally Posted by Caspian

I can't really say anything for what has changed, since I'm entirely new myself... Just got my first pet snake a bit over a year ago, and my first BP's a few months ago. However, welcome back!

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Thanks, I'm glad to be back. Hopefully I can get reestablished back into the community :)

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Originally Posted by PhoenixGate

I really disagree with the bottom dropping out of the market, so to speak. If you're smart about it and achieve a certain size, I think you can still function as a business. I want to get into it but I plan, long term on focusing on more species that just ball pythons.

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See I've been away so IDK if that's something that's actually happened or not. Last time I was actually useful on this forum Scaleless was all the rage and Coral Glows/Bananas were selling for 10K a piece

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Originally Posted by Mephibosheth1

See I've been away so IDK if that's something that's actually happened or not. Last time I was actually useful on this forum Scaleless was all the rage and Coral Glows/Bananas were selling for 10K a piece

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Scaleless is still all the rage, and the Banana/Coral Glow thing was an anomaly. With the influence of the sex-linked clutches, and it being an incomplete dominant trait, more people than ever were able to pop out Banana/Coral Glow animals very quickly which saturated the market, causing the "free fall" of the prices. Everyone points to that as their reference when they talk about the bottom falling out of the entire BP market. I can understand the bitter taste seeing a morph drop from 5 figures to 3 in 2 years, but that doesn't mean the sky is falling. It was one characteristic of one morph. And, it doesn't take a genius to do some simple math and figure out that people are still profitable even at the price they sell for today.

In regards to the market as a whole: those that were profitable before, are still profitable now if they work to be. Those that were shots in the pan, will always be such. Those that want to succeed in this hobby (to whichever degree they work hard enough for), still have the ability to do so. It'll take more effort than before, but that's to be expected in any business which gains popularity as quickly as this hobby does.

EDIT: Oh yeah! Good to see you back! :rolleye2:

All I know is that since I joined the hobby and the reason I did finally join was the prices coming down to a respectable range.

I was able to pick up a 2 gene Pastel Calico Ball Python for $40. Felt so guilty getting what ended up being a 575 gram Male for that price that I didn't ask for my change from 50.

Old used fish tanks are easily bought for 20 bucks or less and really if you have been in any similar hobby, you should be able to put a tank together just from scraps. I know I was able to put my guys current home together and have everything provisioned for hi full grown adult home just from my fish keeping and gecko stuff.

The bubble burst, plain and simple.

1st to arrive are the greedy people that try to profit

2nd to arrive are those who cut corners to undercut group #2

3rd to arrive are the people that breed out of their homes and sell off snakes in desperation everything they have a bill to pay.

Then guys like me swoop in and "help" that guy pay his rent or his food bill by taking one of his least favorite hold backs to keep as a family pet.

It happens in every hobby...been there, done that many times over.

I've just learned to be late to the party, once everything is proven out and everybody is undercutting each other.

But my family has an awesome pet now and that pet has a good home.

If you're honestly not in it for the profit, you would be happy to know that a snake was taken out of a breeding mill and is now a pet :)

If you we're only ever in it for the money, you'll curse me :p

...Don't worry, I got caught in the same mess with fish keeping. I once was breeding to help cover my costs and that's really all it ever ended up doing, just covering my costs. Because I was constantly growing. It really doesn't hit you till you get that first $1000 hydro bill :p

Luckily when you buy used gear, you can normally sell it for what you paid or more. So I ended up coming out ahead, but not as far ahead as you might think.

I do feel like too many people are breeding BPs and oversaturating the market. It seems to have happened in just a couple years---I first started researching getting a BP in 2014. I went to a reptile expo in 2014 and there were only a few BP breeders, and their prices were pretty high. I didn't buy anything. I went to the same expo in 2015 and it seemed like every other vendor had BPs, and they were super cheap---normals for $15, and I got a pretty little cinnamon lesser for $100. One expo isn't the whole story, but just look on the internet, even on craigslist. . .

Anyway, I'm sort of happy because I just want a cheap, pretty pet :D. But on the other hand, I feel like there are going to be a whole lot of unwanted BPs flooding the rescues in a couple years. I'm not sure everyone involved is entirely committed :/.

I really don't understand the whole "the market is flooded" talk when I'm going online and seeing crystals selling for 6, 700. That's just one example, but it seems like prices have been holding pretty steady for the past three years or so (that's how long I've been looking).

I'm a smaller breeder that concentrates on a few projects that I like and seem to sell pretty well. There was more money in it five years ago but we knew that wouldn't last forever. My inventory is down to two snakes that I put on my site about a month ago. Stuff is selling pretty well in my opinion, not overnight or for thousands of dollars but stuff is selling. There is excitement out there but you wouldn't know that sometimes by skimming Facebook or certain forums. I have a waiting list for a couple of my better projects and I get almost daily e-mails and PMs about my new morph. I'm sure the guys with Sunsets and Scaleless Heads would say the same. I actually stopped posting about the King of Dinkers because the e-mails, PMs and questions were almost overwhelming. In addition, if half the people on my waiting list come through it will be a year or so before I would need to advertise them for sale. I'll keep doing this as long as I'm excited about what I produce and seeing what other people produce. Who isn't excited to see more Sunset combos or what happens with the Scaleless. Not to mention all the other new combos that will hatch this summer. You can enjoy this hobby or business regardless of your goals or your budget.

600-700 for a snake, I really can't honestly share my opinions on that as this place is full of snake lovers.

All I will say is Supply vs. Demand...and the supply is far greater than the demand, meaning that the buyer sets their budget and then finds a supplier that for whatever reason accepts the offer.

Just like when I bought my car and saved $8000, I just emailed every dealership within 100km and said "Cash buyer, Best price as of Aug 1st wins"

Cash is king.

Breeders often need $$$ for rent, food (both human and animal), hydro...

when i start to breed, i just hope to break even to pay for supplies and gear and have fun. if i get lucky, i hope to make enough profit to buy a Monarch. :)

as for those leaving, i don't have an analyze on the whole community/industry. but i will say that there are new peeps popping into the forum almost daily. they're buying snakes, some starting a collection and even some asking for pairing/breeding advice. i like my time here - i post, chat, joke, pm a bunch. people come, people go. it's just the ebb and flow of alotta things.

One thing that I've noticed is when there were more morphs worth a huge amount of money ex. Bananas selling for like 5 digits, there seemed to be more people getting into the hobby/industry. While the decrease in new people entering the hobby isn't be the best thing for breeders it might be a good thing for the hobby in general. IMO this likely means there are a lot less people entering this hobby just looking to make a quick buck. The people who are getting into the hobby now are hopefully doing it for the love of the animals which should be better for the hobby and might even be better for the breeders long term as the markets won't be as flooded and the prices shouldn't drop as fast.

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

Scaleless is still all the rage, and the Banana/Coral Glow thing was an anomaly. With the influence of the sex-linked clutches, and it being an incomplete dominant trait, more people than ever were able to pop out Banana/Coral Glow animals very quickly which saturated the market, causing the "free fall" of the prices. Everyone points to that as their reference when they talk about the bottom falling out of the entire BP market.

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Not trying to single you out Eric, just using your post as a reference for my points here.

People have been warning about the bottom falling out for ages (I can find threads on fauna back to 2004* about spiders balls "I think they will keep dropping until they level out in the $2500-$3500 range") with a lot of those types of threads appearing around 2005/2006 and then continuing. Threads about how people are 'dumping their collections' seem to pop up every other year or so with fear of so many people getting out, but there are always new people that get interested to step into their places.
*I don't recall seeing much about that prior to then but I was mostly involved in boas and corn snakes back in the early 2000s

Market crashers are real (it was one or two big breeders that crashed the bananas, they knew what they were doing, getting their bucks and moving on to the 'next big thing'). Any codom/incomplete dom trait is going to fall quickly. Just a few years ago when I got my butter pin, I paid $950. Now I see people selling 2 gene doms for under $150, even under $100. I used to say how if breeders weren't willing to hold off breeding constantly and weren't willing to keep their prices up a bit that they would go the way of the corn snake ($25-75 multi recessive gene morphs). I was speaking about boas at that time but it holds for any 'popular' snake IMO.

Regardless, all of this talk seems to be going away from what the OP was asking, what changed in the last few years? Personally the only other thing I can think of, besides my prior comment about lack of participation in forums due to other social media avenues, are auctions. Snake auctions are a rather new thing that have popped up over the last few years. It can be both good and bad and overall, I've seen a lot where the snakes go for well below market value (not just BPs). Otherwise it seems to be the same old, same old.

and on a personal preference note - scaleless snakes, no thanks! :P

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Originally Posted by AbsoluteApril

Regardless, all of this talk seems to be going away from what the OP was asking

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Not at all; this is the kind of discussion I was looking to start up. It's convos like this that will definitely help me reaquaint myself with what the current trends and ideas are in the hobby.

Snakes are kinda vilified here in NY, so there aren't many expos or events to go to; this is prety much the only insight I have into the BP world.


But all this definitely makes sense; It's one of those things where having an extremely profitable market is awesome, but once everyone notices it there's no way it can last forever. My main hope is that when things level out, it may be easier for average people to have access to some of the rarer/more beautiful morphs. That was alway my thing back home; the local family run petshop would try and purchase unique animals from breeders, but no average person is gonna pay $400 for an albino BP when the albino Corn Snake next door is only $50.

When I first bought my axanthic pastel female I paid $500 and that was a steal since they were hard to find. I waited nearly a year. Then I looked and looked trying to find someone who breeds ax fires since non were for sale. Waited a whole year for the right clutch to hatch and got my axanthic fire male. At the time I started with the ax pastel female axanthic fireflies were like 6/7k. Now they're at 2k... but that's also the SK line from JD. So maybe VPI could fetch a bit more I'm not sure. But at this point what I bought the male and female for would of theoretically bought me an axanthic firefly and then some...

Even the big chains are so our of touch and when you take the time to talk to them, they just carry one of each because they have to as a part of their franchise agreement.

I live in Canada, which is very similar. I travel to the US all the time and I notice very little different outside of you guys being the most overly patriotic group ever...

Petsmart sells Ball Pythons between 89.99 and 129.99 here, commons no het. They are also tiny maybe 150-200 grams at best. They simply keep one for the impulse buyers. Crested Geckos sell in the same range 69.99 to 89.99. Again just a basic crested. The crested will be tiny, not even longer than your longest finger.

If I do a quick search on kijiji or craigslist, I find no shortage of really nice crested geckos for 30-50 bucks and no shortage of some really nice BP morphs for as low as 40-100 bucks, some will let recessive morphs go as low as 20-25 bucks.

To go 1 step further, I'm going to my first Reptile Expo on Sunday in Toronto and I fully expect to see the dreamers out in full force hoping to catch that poor guy that gets trapped into overpaying to make his girlfriend/wife happy. I'm sure I will see reptiles that I can pick up elsewhere for 40-50 bucks selling for 200, 300 even 500.


As for the ones bred in some guys basement, As a consumer...why wouldn't you take the cheaper price and the better value?

Being a breeder and keeping your finger on the pulse of the people with money to spend is next to impossible, you will always be a season or two behind.

I've seen this play out in so many different hobbies in my lifetime.

It will continue. But the bulk of us who actually keep pets and treat them almost like family members, will continue to show up here and post.

Prices got so cheap, I couldn't resist getting into snakes. Same reason I got my Crestie 2 years ago :)

Sorry, I'm outspoken. Most don't like me because I speak my mind.

the hottest thing in BP's right now is the Storm Trooper by JD Constriction. so far he's only produced 1, but hopefully he proves that he's got something and more are on the way.

IMO the hottest trends is Ghost/Hypo. this recessive gene is proving to be a fantastic color lightener and brightener. and i think Banana's are still good but breeders are trending towards Banana Pieds and those who have already had Banana Pieds are producing second generations with extra genes - Banana Enchi Pieds, Banana Cinny Pieds, etc.

What about on the legal front? I saw on a different thread that HSUS is still acting up...have there been any large developments of late?

Welcome back, Meph. I am in the same boat, as I have not been on in about 2 years. I do know about the bananas tho... when I went to the Daytona show in 2013, people were snatchin up stacks of bananas at about 6k. I got my pastel banana a few months ago for $200 at the White Plains show. I think clowns are still holding on, and pied combos. I myself still breed as a hobbyist, but only on a very small scale...like 1 or two clutches a year. I breed for certain combos Id like to have in my personal collection. And honestly, most of my hatchlings go to people who just want a "more exotic looking" ball python as a cool pet.

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Im curious to know why you guys/gals say "Hobby" when talking about owning BPs. I own only 1 BP but Im not a hobbiest. She is apart of my family just as much as my dog is. Since I own a dog is she considered a "Hobby dog" Now Im not saying anything negative nor trying to pick a fight or anything in that regards just I dont understand how owing snakes is a hobby if your a passionate pet owner....Maybe Im way off base

For me, when I had one ball python it was a pet. Same even when I had 3, then 4... Now I have 15 Ball pythons and 3 Boas, and it is more of a relaxing and exciting hobby. I think the "hobby" aspect is the breeding portion, you are buying these snakes, for their own unique beauty, but at the same time you want them for what "living art" they can help to produce in the future. When I got my first Ball I would hold her every night, walk around campus, play cards, she was always out and about. Now my wife and I might hold one or two of them a night while we are watching TV, walking around the yard etc. We definitely have favorites that we get out more, but they still don't get out more than twice a week normally, plus cleaning. Our living room is filled with the racks and PVC cages for the boas, so we can watch them move around explore etc in the evenings. So I don't know, I think my relationship with the animals has changed somewhat as I have learned their habits and behaviors, some of mine hate being out, (AKA HERA THE FIRE BALL PYTHON) so I generally respect her wishes and only get her out during cleaning, she eats well, and I get to watch her grow, but I don't consider her a pet as much as my pastel I have had for 6 years and loves to be out and explore. So stream of consciousness done. Thats my thoughts on why its a hobby.

Welcome back Meph and 4thesnake... Good to see familiar names again. I have been into reptiles since this sites inception.. As I am one of the founding members. I have seen alot of people come and go in the reptile world,and alot has changed.

IMO, its because of the influx of those into the hobby wanting to make a buck, so they bought up stock, began to breed alot of snakes..and they all managed to flood the market w multiple morphs. When one flood the market w them, it simply brings down their value because supply is greater than the demand.

Years ago, the spider morphs were going for thousands... I purchased my killer bee this January for $150... Huge drop because supply is more than demand. I think this is just what happens in a market where so many are able to produce alot of diff morph bps. But really, this just allows more average ppl to acquire better looking animals than we use to be able,so you wont hear me complain. And for those of us that are still into reptiles, we will stay bc most are into them for the love of the animal, not to make a buck as so many went into it w that idea years ago...

Those make a buck ppl, were their own and the hobbys worst enemies. And it now shows in the market.

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I'd consider reptile (or any exotic animal) keeping a 'hobby' because you spend a lot of money on it simply for fun. Also possibly because it's not something that a lot of people do.

When I used to keep cichlids I considered having fish a hobby. I considered my collecting (action figures and such) a hobby. My gaming is a hobby. I don't really think it being a hobby has anything to do with making money, just the spending of it. haha
(just my opinion of course)