The 80-92 degree heat gradient, where did it originate from?

I was curious if anyone knew off hand. I mean I know there are those on the forum that have even deviated from that range, but in general. Where did we aquire the cookie cutter 80-92 degree heat gradient from? Did someone measure African temps and figure this was good, or was it random trial and error and someone found this worked well? Was it in an old book with no source (be surprised how many truths originate from this)? what made this the most recommended standard?

LOL .... NO MORE COFFEE FOR YOU!!! :rofl:

As off the wall as it may be .... I'm interested!

Actually if you look at the average highs and lows for Ghana Africa you see that it very rarely gets up to 90 degrees for an average (though the hottest part of the day can hit 100, snakes are usually underground at that time) . I actually shoot for the high 80's as a hot spot and the lows are whatever the ambiet temperature in the room is (my herp room typically is in the mid to high 70's but can go as low as the high 60's in the late spring or early fall) I've always thought that 92 degrees for a hot spot was too hot.

I think the temperatures that you're talking about were derived from the high and low temperatures inside of a termite mound (which is a favorite denning spot for these snakes)

Of course you would ask this while I'm travelling over the weekend and away from my library. :) Hopefully I don't have to necro-bump this thread on Monday when I'm back in town!

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Originally Posted by MarkS

I think the temperatures that you're talking about were derived from the high and low temperatures inside of a termite mound (which is a favorite denning spot for these snakes)

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Termite mounds hardly vary and there wouldn't be a temp gradient inside of it either. Termites are actually really sensitive insects, even humidity wise. Knowing this is part what sparks my question.

Basking temps can get really high, even with lower ambient temps. Like if it's 85 outside and the sun is shining, you could probably get a 125 degree temp on a rock easily. Which is why some animals need a really hot basking spot. But BPs aren't really basking animals. So I don't know either, I guess is what I'm saying, lol.

I found this site, guy put a bunch of temperature buttons all over a termite mound. Pretty interesting:
http://www.esf.edu/efb/turner/termit...eNestTemp.html

I'm guessing probably started out by reading meteorological charts for average temps from the country/area they come from and then using that as a reference. Then it probably just got adjusted by people as time went on from their own animals as just like humans, some like it warmer and some like it cooler. I personally am like MarkS and I give Dottie a hot spot of around 88F and the cool side is around 78F. Dottie just does her own thing regulating from there. It's the same with boas, a lot of people say give 90F hot spot but both my gals wont touch a 90F hot spot. They like their hot side around 86-88F. Anything hotter and they wont go near it and they end up spending 90% of the time on their 80F cool sides anyways lol.

Well say for example I look up Ghana, I find the average high is 80 and average low is 70 over the year. So imo that doesn't make much sense with the standard. From what I could gather, dead termite mounds average around 86 (they generally have fungus growing that increases humidity and temp) . Which falls more in line with our standard temps.

Where did we get the idea of a gradient? Supposedly they are almost never out during the day, so where did the idea of the hot spot come from?

No idea there. I also wondered about the whole belly heat deal too as most of these snake are crepuscular and I wouldn't imagine there are many places to find belly heat in a termite mound not to mention, BPs aren't known to sun themselves or sit out in the open on a warm rock.

Maybe the gradient is from termite mounds to abandoned rodent dens? I mean a termite mound would nice and toasty warm while a rodent burrow underground would be very cool.

This is only an opinion but I believe the gradient is more due to their physiology. They need these gradients to thermoregulate just as humans do internally. If you give them just a single temp they are stuck regardless of what internal temp is better for a certain situation, by giving them a gradient you allow them to choose what they need. Depending how far they are below ground they can definitely find temperature gradients below ground. I assume the original idea was to have the mean temp of a tank close to what they would encounter in the wild and have a few degrees above and below to allow for thermoregulation. At least that is what I would do. I definitely think people have tinkered with it over the years especially when you talk about breeding drops and such.

Yeah, conditions in captivity needs to be more on point, because they can't go anywhere else. In the wild, if they're too hot, they can find a cooler place. If they're too cool, they can find a warmer place. But they're kinda stuck with whatever we provide in an enclosure.

Maybe dropping the temps at night gives them a better sense of a day/night cycle? I know many animals don't do well if they don't have a consistent day/night cycle and keeping ball pythons in tubs deprives them of a lot of natural light (which shouldn't bother them too much if they hide out in termite mounds all day but still).

Petco care sheet :rolleyes:

Jk Jk ;)

I've wondered the same. The ball pythons in Ghana thrive, so the temps gotta be sustainable right?

I typically like looking up evidence, this is a good topic to dig for for. In to the journals for me :snake:

So far I've dug out an old manual I bought when I was a kid "Ball Pythons by Colette Sutherland Sep 1 2006" Some of you may recognize it.

It says
Hot spot :
80-85 F Hatchlings
85-90 F Sub-Aduts to Adults
Ambient Air:
High 70s - Mid 80s F

I would still like more support, this literature written on 6 references.

Does anyone own : http://vpi.com/store/products/python...imited_edition ?????

This looks like a reliable source reference in this manual.

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Originally Posted by Jvmun

Does anyone own : http://vpi.com/store/products/python...imited_edition ?????

This looks like a reliable source reference in this manual.

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I've got that book, I don't remember what it says about temps, I'll look it up sometime this weekend.

I also remember back in the day something about a video called Dr Steve Gorzula Presents: Ball pythons (or something like that) He's a scientist that went and studied ball pythons in the wild and talked to a lot of the trappers that were catching them. If I remember right he had some data on temps and humidity levels in his video. I believe that some of the care info that we use now was derived from his studies. I don't have a copy of the video but I remember people talking about it.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

I've got that book, I don't remember what it says about temps, I'll look it up sometime this weekend.

I also remember back in the day something about a video called Dr Steve Gorzula Presents: Ball pythons (or something like that) He's a scientist that went and studied ball pythons in the wild and talked to a lot of the trappers that were catching them. If I remember right he had some data on temps and humidity levels in his video. I believe that some of the care info that we use now was derived from his studies. I don't have a copy of the video but I remember people talking about it.

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Hey! I was just reading one of his studies! That's a good lead.
I found "Survey of the Status and Managment of the Royal Python in Ghana". Interesting read.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

This is only an opinion but I believe the gradient is more due to their physiology. They need these gradients to thermoregulate just as humans do internally. If you give them just a single temp they are stuck regardless of what internal temp is better for a certain situation, by giving them a gradient you allow them to choose what they need. Depending how far they are below ground they can definitely find temperature gradients below ground. I assume the original idea was to have the mean temp of a tank close to what they would encounter in the wild and have a few degrees above and below to allow for thermoregulation. At least that is what I would do. I definitely think people have tinkered with it over the years especially when you talk about breeding drops and such.

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Originally Posted by Willowy

Yeah, conditions in captivity needs to be more on point, because they can't go anywhere else. In the wild, if they're too hot, they can find a cooler place. If they're too cool, they can find a warmer place. But they're kinda stuck with whatever we provide in an enclosure.

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Sure we can come up with scenarios were they do thermoregulate but has that actually been observed? or do they just stay put where ever is secure? I know my ball pythons would choose a small igloo over a heatmat in the middle of the floor. also I would think the animal would have a target temp to maintain, why don't we just keep them at that temp? Sure heat helps them digest faster I know that has been observed, but do they actually do that in the wild? From what I can see they really don't encounter temps over termite mound temps too often. Gravid females bowl wrap in what appears to be an attempt to cool down eggs but What other conditions do they actually need different temps though? are our animals moving from cold to hot because of the hotspot?

sure it seems like I am just trying to play devils advocate, but honestly the cookie cutter way to take care of these animals in no way resembles their natural environment from what I can see. Now obviously these animals thrive just fine as pretty much all of us have proven. However I was hoping to find a source to this cookie cutter method and possibly the progression of that source just to see why. This curiosity stems from some people who have moved to the ambient only set up, which in their eyes resembles a natural environment better. I even talked with one breeder who is having way better breeding results now. So naturally I do my research and I'm starting to agree with their logic, but I want to cover all my bases, why do we take care of them the way we do? because I couldn't find it.

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Originally Posted by Jvmun

Hey! I was just reading one of his studies! That's a good lead.
I found "Survey of the Status and Managment of the Royal Python in Ghana". Interesting read.

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I read that study is what that video was based off of. I did skim through it and didn't find anything about temperatures. Did have some interesting parts though. Looks like the video is pretty elusive, amazon is out of stock for the dvd, the site that used to sell it is no longer there. Don't see anything online.

From the Pythons of the world, Vol 2. Ball Pythons. Page 169-170

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To refine their thermoregulatory needs to the next level, we recommend ambient temperatures of 78-80 degrees F with a basking spot of 86 degrees F. Some keepers maintain these temperatures around the clock, while others turn off the basking spot at night and allow the average temperature to drop a few degrees.

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The problem with no gradient is that you are assuming there is a sweet spot that the animal wants to be at all the time. First you have to be able to know and hit this temperature. Doesn't it make more sense to give an animal a gradient and let them figure out what temp they want to be at? Second you are assuming the animal wants to be at the same temperature all the time. You even admitted there are times when an animal benefits from being able to increase its temperature. Also as a bit of anecdotal evidence I often see all of my snakes on a hot spot of around 89 degrees, if they didn't appreciate these higher temps they would not be on this side.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

The problem with no gradient is that you are assuming there is a sweet spot that the animal wants to be at all the time. First you have to be able to know and hit this temperature. Doesn't it make more sense to give an animal a gradient and let them figure out what temp they want to be at? Second you are assuming the animal wants to be at the same temperature all the time. You even admitted there are times when an animal benefits from being able to increase its temperature. Also as a bit of anecdotal evidence I often see all of my snakes on a hot spot of around 89 degrees, if they didn't appreciate these higher temps they would not be on this side.

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I feel I'm assuming less than the current care sheet when compared to their wild environment. Despite how many times it is said, I don't see my animals choosing a tempature, they choose security almost every time. Those times are after eating, which higher tempature just happen to speed up digestion but by no means is it nessisary. Besides that... What other times are there?

I think that's why a lot of care sheets advocate for 2 identical hides as well; one on the hot side and one on the cool side. That way there is an equal ratio of protection to temperature and thus the animal can even better thermoregulate. And as to whether your animal ever actually seems to adjust its temp, I think that for a captive animal the key is to give them the ability to and then let them choose whether to do it or not. That way if something comes up, we know we did everything in our power to allow them to pick the right temp.

TBH, I don't know that we'd ever really be able to tell if wild pythons thermoregulate the way we think of it....we'd have to place subdermal transmitters and monitor their locations and the temperatures there 24/7.