Thoughts on no bite/feeding posts?

I'm going to repost the cleaned up version of Keven McCurley's post who is one of the biggest people fighting for our rights to keep snakes, not just retics.

What are you guy's thoughts on this? I wholeheartedly support this and I think he voiced it very well. I'm finding it interesting though on FB pages that the boa and retic groups seem to be very good at adhering to this but the ball python groups just don't agree or care. I wonder if this is because a lot of them feel like they're protected since they don't keep larger snakes such as boas or retics. The thing is if the big snake keepers lose their animals they sure as heck aren't going to be there fighting for the smaller ones. I think no matter the species we all need to get together and make sure we are making good examples of ourselves and watching our public image. And just because you don't own these species or currently wish to own them, doesn't mean you won't in the future. And it'd be a real shame for them to no longer be an option then.

And I know I've been guilty of the bite and feeding posts. It's the culture and I joined in. I didn't think anything of it at the time. Now that I'm looking at it though, it really doesn't help us with the public. And we really don't need to take pictures of it. We all know bites happen and snakes eat fluffy creatures. We don't need to parade that fact.

No matter the species people own they should be there filling out action alert responses and donating when they can. It's not just for the current lawsuit, it's for all the state and city ordinances popping up trying to ban exotics too and all the work they do in trying to clean up those messes.

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"Ok here goes....... if you Keep Retics, if you WANT to continue keeping larger Herps you may really want to take the time to read this (sadly) long post. I think we all need to get on the same page. As you can see we are trying to rethink our position and lead with thought. I can't do this in short form. Here goes :
** Large Python/Boa Keepers - Our present Crisis. **
Our hobby has changed considerably over the past 12 years, we now keep and breed snakes that were only in our dreams. As we enjoy the "fruits" of our labors we are quickly being targeted by anti pet keeping organizations, federal and state legislators. As we progress in our husbandry and breeding abilities we appear to digress in our understanding of how we are viewed by others, people that do not share in our pleasures. Let me be blunt, the reptile, exotic pet "industry" and it's keepers are Ground Zero in the war against the keeping of pets. As anti pet keeping organizations such as HSUS work towards their mission statement , "to end pet keeping in the United States" we come sharply into focus. The easiest target is a bunch of weirdos keeping animals that are considered loathsome, dangerous, disgusting, injurious and unsuitable as pets. As we all know, our pets of choice are not cute and cuddly, often they are at the other end of the spectrum. We are literally the perfect target as we hang out in the open "defending" our "rights" to keep our predatory pets in cages, in a spare bedroom! Well, we do not have the "right" to keep these animals, this is the actual reality, we can argue it over and over but it is not an actual right, we are presently "allowed" to keep these animals in some states. According to USFWS it is a "privilege" that we are allowed to keep these animals. In a rather short time large pythons and boas have risen in popularity with pet keepers and pet legislators. The more people keeping these animals the more people that notice we keep them and the more people that want to stop us from keeping them. Each and every year anti pet groups become more powerful and greatly effect parts of the pet keeping industry. These victories are often quiet as they aid USFWS and state agencies to ban species from the pet keeping world. There is no reasoning with these people, as passionate as we are about our animals they are equally passionate about animal rights and the cruelty they perceive we present. Anti pet keepers would rather a 10th generation captive bred and born parrot to not exist or to be dead than ever to live in a cage. We can argue that the bird is happy and loves its life but these people will never understand, they are beyond rational thinking. Clearly, I can go on for a very long time about the aspects of our plight and our position but we need to all be on the same page now.

All larger reptile keepers need to establish some basic guidelines about what we do, post and say. We keep carnivores, we know what they do, they eat other things, DON'T post any of it! Don't post them eating, don't post what they are eating, we are not sadist and we do not need to publicly relish this activity. The people that continue to do this make all of us look bad. Remember one very important thing, it may only take one person, one incident to change everything! We are only as strong as our weakest link. Time to firm things up and disassociate ourselves from the people that continue to embarrass our community. There is literally no benefit to showing any carnivores behavior, we know all about it but bragging and making dumb comments only provides ammo to our enemies. When you goto McDonald's do you see lots of pictures of chickens and cows? Do you ever hear anything about Fast Food and what their product is made of? Clearly not, this is for a reason and we better smarten up FAST! Anyone that displays an interest in the suffering or torturing of rodents needs to either stop or become an outcast. This is an incredibly sensitive subject and we are not in a position to challenge this fact. I am writing all of this in a simple fashion but I am not laying it all out in print as I do not want to provide bits to be further used against us (wink wink, NUDGE, NUDGE!!!!) Bite pictures, yes, a snake may sometimes bite as it mistakes us for a snack or just gets confused, its not an opportunity to get fame and attention. What is up with people getting nipped and feeling the need to post it all over social media, are we that lusting for attention? People that keep these snakes so they can get attention are not people that will do anything positive for any of us. Attention seekers will create negative attention and create problems. Yes, we love to keep big snakes and show them around but if you do it, do it with your brain turned up to 10! All it takes is one idiot parading their large constrictor out in public and scaring people to change and ruin things.

If you keep large snakes you need to seize the educational aspect of your animals and what you do. Remember, these animals are the representatives of tropical and remote lands, use your opportunities to enlighten people, get over their fear and more importantly, create value! Reptiles and such are vanishing from the landscape, each and every day there is less of the natural world and more of us! I can not push the educational aspect enough, this creates value, meaning and understanding in what we do and why these animals are suitable pets. Every responsible reptile keeper that teachers others is doing a wonderful job helping all of us, every half *** keeper only hurts us. It only take one idiot on social media to embarrass our entire community of keepers, just like one lie can be more powerful than a thousand truths.

Our present legal battle against USFWS Injurious regulations with our battering ram USARK is working well. We have argued effectively against the massive list of mistruths and fiction provided by USFWS, HSUS (National Humane Society) and Center for Biological Diversity. An effective argument in no short feat, we are literally having to choose what we regard as the most significant arguable points and creating a digestible counter for the judge. As we read documents sometimes 330 + pages plus of reasons why many pythons and boas should be banned as pets and interstate transport it is easy to get lost in the non-sense. As I read these pages my natural response is to write 330+ pages of why its not factual, scientific or reasonable. Clearly, attorneys can not make sense of each and every point, we need to pick solid points and keep it intelligible for the Judge. Remember, the Judge knows nothing about snakes and see their massive documentation why they should be banned and sees our smaller version why the information is flawed. We are naturally on the short end of the stick and we do not have the enormous benefit of being a government agency. The Judge is an intelligent and reasonable man, he views the arguments and tries to make sense of the "facts", regardless of over 300 pages of non-sense provided by our opposition. We are presently waiting for the judge to hear USFWS appeal and I feel our position is presently solid.

"Presently Solid", what does that mean. Well, that means as long as we continue to act in a reasonable fashion and watch what we are doing. We have argued the facts and have educated the court, we need to remain in a positive light. Essentially, we need to regulate ourselves even better and not provide the ammunition that our opponents are desperate to have. We are no longer just fighting a Government agency, we are fighting private groups that literally hate us and use FICTION as a serious tool! They have a near endless amount of money and they have the ear of the public, we have none of that! The amount of energy they use to create hysteria, misconceptions, fear, loathing and action against us is incredible. You see the sad animals suffering on TV, donate money to save them right? Wrong, they take the money, hire more lobbyist to help USFWS create LAWS against pet keepers and create endless nightmares for us. We are the Enemy, we are small, poor and disorganized, we have only one weapon, reality! In this fight, lies are far more effective than truth and we need to smarten up and remember the world is watching each and every one of us! Social media may be fun but it is an effective way to accumulate information, pictures and videos that can and will be used against us!

I am stating that there needs to be an immediate end to feeding videos, pictures and anything to do with this aspect. Don't post something clever, just don't post any of it! 2. No more bite pictures unless insignificant and with purpose. DO not ever post a bite picture where the injury looks significant, scary or rather bloody. Adult and sub adult bites should not be posted, superficial bites are ok. The internet is watching and loves to make our pets look SCARY! 3. Posting things to get attention that makes us look bad needs to end. Posting snakes and sounding like a gangster is not going to help us and does a wonderful job to pigeon hole us as idiots. 4. Anything that can be viewed as animal cruelty don't post it! 5. Posting snakes in a filthy cage or something that is clearly not admirable without purpose, don't do it! 6. Stop posting dumb things that make you or other snake keepers look bad. Show off your snakes, show off people playing with snakes but don't show the world you have a third grade education and your an idiot. 7. EDUCATION, why is this the LAST THING that people want to show? What has happened to us? Show off pictures of people interacting with snakes in a positive light! Show snakes in a way people wonder and rethink their fear. 8. Do not post a snake in a small enclosure or filthy that another person could take out of contact as cruel or unsuitable. The world is watching. 9. Watch what you say.. Do not talk about them as DANGEROUS in any way, but making them out to look scary or dangerous/harmful you are DAMAGING our hobby!!! ( Wink, Wink, Nudge, NUDGE). 10. If you are doing anything illegal, or illegally keeping them in a state or community where you should not, DON'T post it!!!!!

Last point to consider....... State agencies are hopping on the: You will need PROOF of INSURANCE, a Million Dollar policy to keep that animals in this state.... no one will be allowed to touch it but the permitted, you will need to create an emergency plan, a plan of who will take it if you die. You will not be allowed to take it outside your home. You are endangering the public, community, environment ..... all sorts of nightmarish stuff just to keep the animals you now have!!!!!!! Don't provide the fuel that hurts us all. I can not fight for all of you if you don't stop and think about what you are doing and how it may make all of us look. We can not endure further mistakes at this time, our fight is difficult and we need to watch ourselves and put a good face on what we do. We do not need an added permit system, they can create such restrictions that having the permit and snake offers little enjoyment!
PS : Sharing videos of AWFUL videos involving cute little things(being eaten) that we keep as pets is DUMB!!! Lots of people enjoy all sorts of critters and they FREAK OUT when they see this stuff. Why would we want to aggravate these people? (Example the asian video of puppy and snake, it is AWFUL and WEAPONRY, Get rid of it, delete it and DO NOT SHARE!!!!) Stop doing that, delete it and make it go the hell away, it is going to KILL US!!!! Other breeders or keepers that are mouthing off and condemning us on social media are only going to HURT us, do not help them in any way! Breeders and well known keepers, time to smarten up and think about what you are posting! Do not be an idiot and the anti snake poster child, I don't care if you need attention, use your brain and WAKE UP!

Double PS: To all of you that thinks this is BULL****. Ok, you are clearly the ones that do not lift a finger to help our fight. You are not involved behind the scenes, you are likely not part of USARK and you are not the ones going to represent US! You are not the ONE pouring over USFWS arguments on why all of these species are DANGEROUS and INVASIVE... you are not the one that can argue against them even though you want to scream with the amount of lies you have to read. You are not the one providing endless information to the legal fight. You are not the one that spends hours and house on the phone with the attorneys. You are not the one creating a strong relationship with one particular attorney that has been a literal god send to all of us (Rich Stanley). You are not the one that helps Phil Goss (Wonderful job he has done for all of us!!) generate interest and fuel in the fight. You are not the one that continues forward when most everyone else has given up. I don't want to hear about we must have a spine and "I will do what the **** I want" ....... In reality, you are self serving and do little to benefit any of us here. You make us look bad, you fuel the fire and only help speed us along to not being "allowed" to keep these snakes. Maybe, possibly, at some point you will win with your tired egomaniac ways and create a gang of anti establishment buck the system keepers.... and then I will just get tired enough of you and your gang and STOP doing anything to fight the laws and give up. I can tell you one thing, if I am not doing a bunch of the heavy lifting and using my expertise we are ****ED! Most people have no idea what has been going on behind the scenes, they have no idea how this whole thing works. They think it must be ****ing magic, right? WRONG, there is a small group of people that are doing the real stuff that matters. You continue to act like fools, disregard them and fuel the fire against our industry and they will give up! Without THEM we will fall like a pathetic gang of ****ES! If you are not one of the people I am talking to then just ignore my little rant...but if you are, I have no use for you, our industry has no use for you and you can either use your brain or piss off. Remember one thing, we can easily get rid of you on these groups, we do not need you and a bit of house cleaning is always in order...... if you suck then you are the first to go! I am tired of looking at people online making us look stupid, the sooner we realize that your stupid the sooner you can go away!

Triple PS : If you think all of this is bull**** because the arguments against our snakes is bull****...... Wake up, seriously, wake the **** up! We are arguing against pure and utter non-sense in many aspects, essentially, we are arguing as if we keep the literal boogie man in our homes! None of this matters, I got over that long ago, we are arguing against people that are very willing to lie and misguide the powers that be. As much as this sucks this is all we have, we need to take a deep breathe and hope that we can articulate our realities into a format that makes sense. These people will do and say whatever they want to achieve their end game, BAN and END our pet keeping abilities or make it so difficult we can not possibly meet all of their requirements! People hate snakes, USFWS does not want us to have them, they are looking for any possible way to stop us and they have a huge amount of help. The Center for Biological Diversity is the new kid on the block, funded by a BILLIONAIRE - Andy Saban. I spoke to him twice, there is no way to discount this man and what he thinks. He has an attorney that is a reptile "expert" and he believes her more than he believes me!!! I tried arguing my points, he listened for awhile but believes all the "hype" and "facts"!!! These people literally think our snakes are going to get loose and take over, there is no way to convince them otherwise! The fact that we have accomplished so much with the pathetic organization we have is amazing, take away a key player or two and it's OVER! So, does this make sense?"

I'm not sure that simply not discussing such issues or not posting pics is going to help matters. Then some people are just going to say "look, they must be doing something bad because they're hiding their actions!". People who aren't doing anything wrong don't need to hide anything. Of course, discretion is needed. . .some people don't want to look at that kind of stuff. But hiding it just sort of rubs me the wrong way. I think open discussion is best, along with discussion of how you do it humanely and correctly. If it's not humane, well, maybe you shouldn't be doing it :p.

Now, idiots are gonna idiot. Pit bull owners have been fighting that one for years. No matter what the good owners do or say, the bad ones are going to keep making it worse for everyone. But the good owners should roundly condemn those bad owners, not ignore or condone their actions because of some twisted sense of solidarity.

I definitely think there's a time and place for feeding/bite photos. Herp-specific forums? Yes! Facebook pages where anyone could easily see it and tag their ophidiophobic friend to tease them and say 'look at this... It's gonna get you in your sleep �� ' as people regularly do? Maybe not such a great idea. And trust me, I have seen actual comments with that tone.

People will be fearful even of just a picture of a snake doing absolutely nothing- why put footage of a mouse screeching in fear in pain as it dies, or a common pet species trying to eat a person's finger?

I believe the timing of Kevin McCurley's post was the day after Easter....... Definitely not trying to put the blame on giant snake owners but I think it's not too much of a stretch to believe that all those 'Easter has been cancelled -big snake posed among Easter eggs, eating a rabbit-' style of posts are what may have inspired him. And in my opinion it's totally insane that anyone even has to be told not to share those kinds of things on Facebook. On the one hand, people want to own their giant pythons. On the other, they don't seem to care at all how many people they push away from snakes and snake owners all for the sake of a funny picture. In the non-herper/snake owner's eyes, you took a poor innocent little fluffy bunny and threw it to the mercy of a terrifying cold-blooded killing machine. That doesn't make us look good. That doesn't make snakes any more appealing to the average person. It just looks cruel and scary.

As for bite pics, I also think that's just not smart. So many people are afraid of being bitten by snakes. It's really not a good idea to make it seem like if you own a snake, it'll bite you and anyone who holds it. I've had my BP for less than a year and so far had three people who have been so afraid of just the idea of being bit by a venomous snake that they either screamed at the sight of my little baby BP, or were so scared that they couldn't even speak until I closed the tub and put a blanket over it. Phobias are SERIOUS. Do we really need to make them worse by providing 'nightmare fuel'?

I agree, we do need to present our best face to the public. Even when people decide to feed their dog or cat a 'raw food' or even 'whole prey' diet, they rarely are posting photos of the food or of the animals eating the food. There's not much need to post a photo.

Sometimes when our snakes go on long fasts, we ARE super excited that they finally decided to eat and we want to share that with our friends who understand the fickle nature of BPs. Sharing the excitement doesn't need a photo though, we ALL know what a feeding python looks like.

Bite pictures are tough and cool and all, but again, for our best face, it's not really a great idea to post them. Dog owners don't proudly display bite wounds from their pets, and we probably shouldn't either.

It doesn't mean we don't take pride in our pets. It doesn't mean we "hide" that our pets eat meat diets nor that we lie in not showing the teeny pinpricks of blood from a bite. It means that we decide to be smart and realize that we are ALL representatives for the responsible ownership of herps.

I'm torn on this. Personally I don't put things up about my snakes on fb. Especially feeding, but I will on here and IG as there's an audience that enjoys reptiles. I think a feeding snake is one of the most interesting and impressive things in the world. An animal with no arms or legs that can catch and eat prey, that's an amazing feat. Come on there's entire documentaries on it. So seeing and sharing it on a forum like this with people that can appreciate it for what it is I think is fine. But sharing it to the general public, that's where I can see it causing us more headaches.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Feeding pics:
I'm ok with those for the most part when kept to reptile forums only. Not really on FB. And I do agree it's one of those things we snake keepers find special because our babies are going to grow and stay healthy from that, but for others it's not really that way. So yes maybe just the confines of forums.

Bite pics:
I don't think they really have any place anymore. Not with the pressure this hobby is under. Those little tiny pricks from fine pointed snake teeth often do no damage (especially for small snakes like BPs) but they can produce quite a bit of blood compared to the size of the marks. That picture of it makes the snakes look more dangerous than they are. I can't think of any other pet species that people share animal inflicted wounds pictures from. Maybe horses from riding accidents, but the horse hobby isn't going to go anywhere (though we are losing shows due to lack of public interest). We all know snakes bite so the arguments being thrown saying it's misleading to new people in the hobby I think is rubbish. And I think really the main drive behind bite pics/vids is to seem like a tough guy for not being bothered by it. I know that when I got my first bite I was excited because it finally happened. I won't be posting anymore bite pics though. And even shared in closed FB groups, there really is no screening process to get accepted. 9/10 I get accepted into a new group in minutes. You really have no clue who is going to see them and take them outside the group.

Thanks for your thoughts guys! It's interesting and I just wanted to open up some discussion on it and get people in the BP community thinking about it. :)

I would post bite pics so people would know what to expect if (and eventually when) it happens and to show how quickly something that looks bad actually heals. Seeing photos of retic bites back in the day (and how they slash when they bite) made me more cautious and considerate before just going out to buy one. However I do see the points about how bite pics can be used as a weapon against the hobby so I will refrain from posting them any longer. I've never been a fan of feeding videos, especially live.
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People say they will continue to post feeding pics but only on reptile websites should also keep in mind that the organizations looking to take away our ability to keep exotic pets may still view these forums.

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Originally Posted by AbsoluteApril

People say they will continue to post feeding pics but only on reptile websites should also keep in mind that the organizations looking to take away our ability to keep exotic pets may still view these forums.

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Which is my thought as well. It's probably easier to access it here than FB. But then I can see people who enjoy posting them wanting some kind of outlet. I personally don't think it should be done anymore. I feel it's definitely less damaging when done tastefully (no live feeding videos, no pictures with joking captions, no videos showing lack of respect for the feeders, etc) than bite stuff though. Feeding pics are just kinda "meh" for me. Seen it a million times. Always interesting to watch in person but I don't think it needs to be shared. And like Kevin mentions it comes off as "relishing" in feeding animals to ours. Like another poster mentioned there's a variety of videos/photos/documentaries already out there showing this. There will be no more bite photos from me. I don't think I've ever posted feeding photos and I won't start.

It really sucks we have to so carefully watch what is done in the hobby because our animals are the subject of many phobias and misunderstandings. I do think we need to really police ourselves though.

It's really about sensitivity and discretion. In reptile specific forums or groups, it might be OK, but I personally don't see a need for it to happen as often as I see it. Outside of those places, absolutely not. Many consider our pet's prey items to be good pets in their own right, or they simply have an irrational fear, which is still quite real for them. Which is where the sensitivity come in, think how a non herper might feel. The discretion is that our hobby simply doesn't need to fuel it's own destruction by providing it's own bad press. Yes, it sucks big that we are on the line like this, but it is the reality we have to deal with.

I go to a Catholic Prepatory High School and many teachers think that snakes are satan for some reason. UNTIL I brought in my beloved bp and showed them that snakes are loving creatures too. I agree with not posting live feeding videos. Shoot it breaks my heart seeing a cute rabbit getting killed on a trampoline (look it up its disgusting). Nothing is going to change until people see for themselves and hold a snake in there arms. Sadly people are very provincial and only see a deadly animal when looking at a snake. :(

Bites and feeding... Its all in the presentation. If the material is presented in a educational and scientific manner such as a documentary of the animal in its natural setting I would say it is fine. When the material is presented for entertainment purposes only it reeks of the old school Roman arena where they slaughtered animals purely for the entertainment of the audience. Animals are slaughtered for our own consumption every day however only a warped individual would make videos of it so that other warped individuals can be entertained by the carnage. On another note, take it from someone in the tech industry, Facebook and products like it are not your friend. The information is used for purposes that you may have not even considered. Keep your life as private as possible.

If anyone says they don't like your feeding pics show them this and ask them if it's cute. Ask them why it's immoral to feed a sake that kills to eat but not immoral to keep cats, many of which kill for fun. Force them to admit that the reason they don't like snakes is because they don't have fur and not because they kill rodents.

Kudos to you Marissa for all your hard work and commitment to the hobby/ industry! Thank you for disseminating all that info in your op. I agree whole heartedly with everything you put forth. I just want to add that we as keepers need to be more vigilant in securing our reptiles (especially giant owners) and preventing these escapes. We all know that snakes are escape artist however big or small, and we need to focus on securing our charges to prevent this. Escapes of reptiles is a major problem in our hobby that needs more transparency and commitment of owners to stop this. A very real problem that causes major concerns and really hurts us every time it occurs and is even more detrimental when it goes public by the media. :rage:

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Originally Posted by Willowy

I'm not sure that simply not discussing such issues or not posting pics is going to help matters. Then some people are just going to say "look, they must be doing something bad because they're hiding their actions!". People who aren't doing anything wrong don't need to hide anything. Of course, discretion is needed. . .some people don't want to look at that kind of stuff. But hiding it just sort of rubs me the wrong way. I think open discussion is best, along with discussion of how you do it humanely and correctly. If it's not humane, well, maybe you shouldn't be doing it :p.

Now, idiots are gonna idiot. Pit bull owners have been fighting that one for years. No matter what the good owners do or say, the bad ones are going to keep making it worse for everyone. But the good owners should roundly condemn those bad owners, not ignore or condone their actions because of some twisted sense of solidarity.

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Yeah, I agree with this. The way my f/t rats die is in many ways more humane than the way the pig that provided my morning bacon died. That being said... what's with the people who kill their mice and rats by slitting their damn throats? Buy a freakin' gas machine. I just picked up like four or five months worth of rodents from a guy at a show yesterday and didn't think to look, and yep... he slit their damn throats. So now I am going to have bloody water and blood all over the cages. Damn it... talk about stuff that just makes us look like barbarians??

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Originally Posted by Rob

I'm torn on this. Personally I don't put things up about my snakes on fb. Especially feeding, but I will on here and IG as there's an audience that enjoys reptiles. I think a feeding snake is one of the most interesting and impressive things in the world.

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I don't typically put feeding pics on Facebook or public venues either, unless someone asks to see one. I have had that happen from non-snake people who are curious as to how it works. I also don't think I should have to hide how my snake eats, though. My dog eats a chicken based dog food. Why is that okay, given the amount of suffering that chickens raised commercially endure? They are going after us because the poultry lobby and the poultry-eating American public is more powerful than the reptile lobby... always the low hanging fruit. If the animal-use lobbies in the US were smarter, they would all band together to soundly destroy HSUS, PETA and their kin in the courts. They aren't friends to ANYONE at all that has animals in their life, no matter which way.

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Originally Posted by Albert Clark

Kudos to you Marissa for all your hard work and commitment to the hobby/ industry! Thank you for disseminating all that info in your op. I agree whole heartedly with everything you put forth. I just want to add that we as keepers need to be more vigilant in securing our reptiles (especially giant owners) and preventing these escapes. We all know that snakes are escape artist however big or small, and we need to focus on securing our charges to prevent this. Escapes of reptiles is a major problem in our hobby that needs more transparency and commitment of owners to stop this. A very real problem that causes major concerns and really hurts us every time it occurs and is even more detrimental when it goes public by the media. :rage:

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This I definitely agree with.

Know what else needs to stop?? Pictures of MORONS with venomous snakes who FREE HANDLE the damn things. If there is one aspect of the hobby that I actually think NEEDS to be better regulated by the government, it's the venomous side of things. I just don't think anyone with $100 should be able to walk into the Hamburg expo and buy a freakin cobra or a gaboon viper. There's way too many stupid people out there who are adrenaline junkies, and they really, really make our hobby look bad.

Re: retics in particular... the numbers they are bred in are in my opinion unsustainable in captivity. These are massively huge animals and most people who keep other smaller snakes are neither prepared nor capable of handling the needs of these truly giant snakes. If we look at the percentage of reptile owning homes that have the time, space and money to keep a single retic, let alone many, it's very small in comparison. So why are we breeding thousands of these a year? I have the same issue with people importing pacus and arowanas by the hundreds in the aquarium trade. How many people really have the space and money to properly house a 3-5' fish?? It's ridiculous... and it really DOES give HSUS and their kin a foothold in the argument.

I happen to live in a town in Canada that restricts us. I think the restrictions re a bit excessive, but I choose to for some reason abide by them. Mainly because I have children and a piece of trash for an ex wife...I don't want to give her any ammo to further ruin the lives of our children.

We have to register dogs annually and pay the city a fee...our politicians are morons that have a town of 500k greater than 100 million dollars in debt and continue to stupidly spend money on useles BS...but this is life.

We can't keep anything with venom, period.

Snakes are restricted to non venom and less than 3 meters in length as an adult

Reptiles are restricted to non venom and less than 2 meters in length as an adult.

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I don't need a snake that is in excess of those numbers, even being a retired fighter 6'2 and 230 pounds of the good stuff...I have no desire to handle a snake larger than a Ball Python. I have nothing to prove to anyone.

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Originally Posted by Hammertime1977

Snakes are restricted to non venom and less than 3 meters in length as an adult

Reptiles are restricted to non venom and less than 2 meters in length as an adult.

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I hesitate to ask this... but does your town know that snakes ARE reptiles?? lol

Safe to assume they don't considering they've buried us in so much debt.

Hamilton, Ontario

Once strong steel town, recovering...but not really a great place to live in places.

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Our city council is full of rejects that otherwise couldn't hold down a normal job. They're so underpaid that nobody with any talent would even consider running. I know I was asked to run about 10 years ago and I just laughed and said I couldn't afford the pay cut :p

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I think there's a fine line between over regulation and protecting those too stupid to protect themselves :p Personally I would prefer if we just hit the fast forward button and went back to survival of the fittest :)

I like the idea of just removing all the warning signs and letting the stupidity problem fix its self.

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Originally Posted by Hypancistrus

Re: retics in particular... the numbers they are bred in are in my opinion unsustainable in captivity. These are massively huge animals and most people who keep other smaller snakes are neither prepared nor capable of handling the needs of these truly giant snakes. If we look at the percentage of reptile owning homes that have the time, space and money to keep a single retic, let alone many, it's very small in comparison. So why are we breeding thousands of these a year? I have the same issue with people importing pacus and arowanas by the hundreds in the aquarium trade. How many people really have the space and money to properly house a 3-5' fish?? It's ridiculous... and it really DOES give HSUS and their kin a foothold in the argument.

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And this is where I think SD ares going to allow many to own retics that otherwise could not.

And I'd love to see the various animal hobbies stand up to fight PETA and HSUS. Over the past year or so HSUS has been pretty outed to most. I continue to share both groups messed up ethics and action on FB whenever I see a post pop up and continue to talk to people about them. Most people don't realize they don't own any shelters, use 99% of their money to lobby against owning animals, and the vast amount of animals PETA actually kills, etc.

New post on this from Kevin: (again cleaned up for the forum)

"Changes to the Nation: Ok, here it is, this is MY FAULT! I am a Retic Keeper and part of the Retic Nation, my love for these animals is like YOURS and then some! I am friends with the Admins of the Nation ( I am not an Admin here) and we talk about things off to the side. I am also the guy that FIGHTS for our rights and does things behind the scenes. It has been troubling me for a time some of the "foolish" post and things that make me cringe when I see them. I am seeing these post as an advocate for our Industry and large snake keepers. This is not me being offended or thinking what is right or wrong. This is me thinking HOLY ****, this makes us look like monsters, sadist and keepers of dangerous creatures.We can not possibly rely on USARK and others to help in our fight if we don't police ourselves and project a better image. I am reacting to snap shots representing all of us.... We all should know that there is a huge effort to ban or legislate the **** out of our hobby. Look, I'm swearing so people realize I am not some politically correct "do gooder", we are in a tough place and I HATE THE **** OUT OF our situation! We can not defend or counter for our industry if we are staring these idiotic post in the face and pretending that this stuff is not common. If we are going to argue the "good" in what we do and we should be "allowed" to keep and breed these animals we do not need to feed them the ammo in their guns. TO an outsider much of what we do looks INSANE, DANGEROUS and barbaric. It just takes a few bunny lovers, rat lovers , anti pet, animal right's types to accelerate the machine against us. WHy the heck would we want to create a hub for let's say Reticulated Pythons and show off our animals and then show activities that make us look less than wonderful? DO a search online, look to where the giant snake keepers collect and search the post for negative post/pics/videos. Take that information and show it to your state, legislators, animal control, animal welfare and watch them freak out! I asked and argued for The Retic Nation to clean things up, I told them what I thought was damaging and asked why there was a reason to post such things, what actual good did it do? It's about weighing the good and the bad, a post may be exciting or draw attention but it can also be forever on the Web. The admins did not all jump on board, there was a great deal of back and forth but in the end I think we collectively decided it was time to clean up our public act and maybe try to set a good example. In the meantime the amount of *****ing, crying and freaking out has been out of control at times. I will defend this to the bitter end, there is no reason to public display all aspects of our keeping. You don't go into a McDonalds and see pictures of them slaughtering you lunch do you? Thoughts?"

I think this is solid stuff to follow no matter what species we keep. Just because you don't own retics doesn't mean this isn't applicable. Corn snake, ball python, boas, whatever should keep this in mind. The battle for our snakes won't stop at just large constrictors (even though that's the easiest target)

And the starting of having to put snakes on a million dollar home owners insurance policy is definitely scary. Yet another way they're trying to close the doors on this hobby.

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Originally Posted by Hammertime1977

I don't need a snake that is in excess of those numbers, even being a retired fighter 6'2 and 230 pounds of the good stuff...I have no desire to handle a snake larger than a Ball Python. I have nothing to prove to anyone.

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Why would you assume anyone who has big snakes has something to prove? Couldn't be that they they love them for the animal they are, smart, inquisitive beautiful creatures. They have to be trying to show how big and bad they are by the animal they choose to keep? Large snake keepers come in all shapes and sizes, not everyone that keeps them has napoleon syndrome.

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Originally Posted by Rob

Why would you assume anyone who has big snakes has something to prove? Couldn't be that they they love them for the animal they are, smart, inquisitive beautiful creatures. They have to be trying to show how big and bad they are by the animal they choose to keep? Large snake keepers come in all shapes and sizes, not everyone that keeps them has napoleon syndrome.

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Somehow missed that part/post. I have to say ball pythons just do not compare in intelligence and presence to some of the larger species. I love my ball pythons certainly, but there's much more out there for interaction.

I don't think of "Don't post feeding or bite pictures" as "hiding something". I don't post photos of my dog eating a raw turkey back. I never posted a photo of me killing a chicken that I would eat, nor a goat, nor butchering a cow... it's just not something I think to do because I don't think it's something people want to see.

Presenting a better image is important if we want to turn the tide that is running right now against owning reptiles. HSUS/PETA have quite effectively sent a tsunami against us and we're barely dog paddling with our heads above water. We are NOT a big, rich, powerful hobby/industry and therefor the elected officials have ZERO reason to vote on our side. The only plus we do have available is public opinion.

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And the starting of having to put snakes on a million dollar home owners insurance policy is definitely scary.

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This is already required for a lot of dog breeds, depending on the insurance company. It sounds scary but it really doesn't cost much. It's also not legislation. . .well, OK, it could be, some municipalities require it. It's mostly just pure free market---if you don't like it find a different insurance company.

This is the kind of quality content I look for on this site :D

Good job Marissa for bringing the serious topics into the light. In many ways I feel that the Reptile hobby is hit harder than Gun Ownership when it comes to taking away our liberties in this regard.

On the original topic, I definitely agree that this is something that should be common sense. Just because we aren't doing something wrong doesn't mean we have to advertise it for the whole world to see on a public forum where opinions can be made arbitrarily and not argued/defended.

Rather than post pics of our bites, save them for use when a friend asks us what a bite looks like.

Rather than post a feeding video where someone could stumble across it and get their butts hurt, feed when friends who are genuinely interested in the hobby are visiting the snake room.

Rather than show the whole world that we can handle hots freehand, save it for a scholarly workshop or for "private showings" of our collections.

Part of being a responsible hobbyist of any kind is realizing the stigma/image that our hobby faces, and doing our best to educate people on the true image that our hobby should show. This means there are parts that we advocate 1000% and show to everybody we possibly can; this also means that there are aspects that we don't publicize unless it's to the right people in the right circumstances. It's not being a push-over, and it's not hiding who we are as reptile keepers; it's about knowing how to win our battles and how to properly argue for our rights.

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Originally Posted by Rob

Why would you assume anyone who has big snakes has something to prove? Couldn't be that they they love them for the animal they are, smart, inquisitive beautiful creatures. They have to be trying to show how big and bad they are by the animal they choose to keep? Large snake keepers come in all shapes and sizes, not everyone that keeps them has napoleon syndrome.

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Nothing like that.

Locally here, there was in incident where a snake got out of it's cage and killed 2 kids. Once that story hit...instant stigma and all of the conservatives wanted to ban snakes all together.

There are good owners, which I have to assume all of us are. Why would you come here seeking advice or looking to help others that have been through what you went through if you didn't care about your pets?

But there are bad owners that get a kick out of doing things others wouldn't do.

I don't think you have 1 less tooth for every foot your snake is over 6 feet or anything. That's just a stereotype that is only accurate 60% of the time :p (Jokes)

I can honestly say I don't totally disagree with my city's ban on anything with venom and restricting snakes to a maximum of 3 meters and lizards to a maximum of 2 meters.

Also keep in mind, they can't just walk into your house and look around.

You don't have to let anyone into your house unless a judge has signed off on a warrant. When the police came around at my request when my ex wife was being a douche, I spoke with them in my driveway despite their constant request to go inside. If you let them in voluntarily, they can use whatever they observe against you.

I wouldn't mind a Boa, but I have 2 young kids and from what I have been told...they can be a bit on the bitey side.

I fully accept that if I approach my Ball Python when it's scared or hungry, I'm going to get bit. I fully accept that and take full responsibility for it. I actually keep Q-Tips and Listerine close just in case. I hoe it doesn't happen, but I understand that if it happens...it's my fault and not the fault of the snake. Not sure I would have that same confidence with a Boa...but give me time :)

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Just because we aren't doing something wrong doesn't mean we have to advertise it for the whole world to see on a public forum

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That's not quite what I meant; I do think extreme discretion is needed about when and where to share. But I also think the discussion should be open and honest. Let's say. . .if every snake feeding video on youtube is of some jerk feeding puppies to their snake or some young fools laughing and joking about a rat screaming while being constricted. . .then that's what people are going to think every snake owner does. But a normal person feeding their normal snake a normal meal of a normal f/t rat, like it ain't no thing, just like they're feeding a can of meat to the cat. . .maybe there should be more of that. Less sensationalism, more routine stuff.

And of course, if any reaction to discussion of feeding or bites is "SHHH, WE DON'T TALK ABOUT THAT", people are gonna start making things up. So, be discreet but not secretive, I guess is what I'm saying.

^^Yeah that's exactly what I meant

It's just a matter of how the videos are perceived, and frankly on the internet there isn't much we can do to dictate how they will be taken. I would think it's better to show that side in person, where you have a "captive audience" who will be sure to get their questions answered. On the forum its too easy for a person to see a feeding video, start feeling uncomfortable, and just leave without getting the "full story" of how the video relates to the hobby.

To bring this back up to the top, since my oldest Savu nailed me again over the weekend... IMO posting gory bite pictures is a bad idea. OTOH posting that bites do happen, especially with certain species, should be discussed so that people know what they are getting into before bringing a critter home.

Posting that neonates are often nippy/defensive along with methods to chill them out should be discussed. Posting about hook training your large/foody snakes to help avoid a food-response bite should be discussed. Posting about how to get out of a food response bite when it happens definitely should be discussed so people learn how not to make matters worse.

BUT

How do you hold these discussions without mentioning that snakes bite?

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Originally Posted by bcr229

How do you hold these discussions without mentioning that snakes bite?

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By all means, everything you said I agree with, but when the intent is to entertain rather than educate I believe it works contrary to our goal as keepers which I think most would agree is to be able to keep our animals without harassment.

If you want a highly intrusive and regulation obsessed government out of your lives, and out of your hobby, vote republican. If you believe in common sense and self sufficiency, rather than delusional ideas of political correctness, vote republican. From voting for local state congressman, up to our president, every time you vote democratic you allow the governmental machine to grow and continue to strip you of your inalienable right to determine the course of your lives. Think about your hobby and your pets next time you vote.

It is a tough one. I noticed a post earlier this week about a daughter being bit.

I would have never posted or spoken about that in public. But of course I'm a single father with a manipulative ex wife who would use anything to her advantage...

The whole reason why I own a Ball Python is because they are generally easy to tame and as long as you approach them with care and respect, you really shouldn't get bit.

Things happen, but I think we need to accept the fact that we might be bit and if a bite does happen...it's our fault and not the fault of the poor snake trying to defend itself, or feed itself. A lot of these problems could be a result of bad information, some people just do things with their snakes on a set weekly/monthly schedule instead of monitoring the snake and doing what needs to be done. Until you have mastered reading the body language of your snake and what each part of the enclosure means (and can mean) you might want to be extra cautious.

I still haven't had my girlfriend go into the enclosure to pull Damien out, she has watched me do it many times. But her handling is just too careless in my opinion to do so. She might be alright, but the last thing I want to see is her get tagged and pull her hand back because she tends to stink in pressure situations with making decisions. I pretty much hand her a balled up snake and she can somewhat manage the snake as it slithers around. She is still careless with her hand position and very often puts her hand in front of the snakes mouth, thankfully the snake is already chilled out before it is passed to her. She will get better in time, she just needs to focus on the important things.

Same thing with my children. We had a great play session this weekend, the hardest thing is the kids wanting the snake out 2-3 times a day. I prefer to keep handling to every other day at the most. The great part of the glass enclosure is that the kids can "check" on him 4-5 times a day if they want to.

I'll be honest, at 6'2" 225 with an athletic frame...a Ball Python is a bit of a joke.

But every other bigger snake I look into bites. Or is more prone to bite. I'd love a Boa, I have even looked into Hog Island Boas just to make sure I don't end up with a snake that is too big for my local laws. We have a 3 meter max on snakes here and zero tolerance for venom.

But I can't pull the trigger on a bigger snake because a) I just don't want to get bit and b) I don't want one of my kids to get bit and lose whatever custody I might still have and c) there's no guarantee I can find a true Hog Island, I might end up with a cross breed that goes way past the size I am looking for.

Oh this hobby...haha

Bottom line though, if you get bit...you did something to get bit. My hope is to avoid the activities that would get me bit. I just don't see my collection growing at this point as I just can't think of a safe sub 10 foot snake that is tame enough to be a true pet and not just something you observe behind glass and are afraid to interact with.

This topic really has me thinking. I am very torn. I am not on FB or any other social media, this account is the only forum I post on. Since I don't even have an outlet to post things besides here I obviously don't post any bites or feeds. Besides the fact I am a private person and don't feel the need for attention from the public, I would NEVER post a feeding video. This goes against everything my snake has to offer plus who wants to be filmed eating? That would just be rude of me. If I was to be bit in the future (so far no bites) I would be far too embarrassed to ever consider posting it because it would have been my mistake. I would not want people to associate bites with my sweet girl.

On the other hand I do believe in the education of these beautiful animals. Before buying a ball I watched many YouTube videos from Snake Bytes. He actually helped us choose the species by explaining the nature of a few good beginner snakes. These videos were incredibly helpful and I did not find them in poor taste.

Should the average Joe go around posting nasty feeding videos? NO Should an experienced educator on these animals show other owners how it should be properly done? YES Double edged sword. As for bite posts, I really appreciated watching them before I bought a snake to see just how it all went down. It's good to know how much damage different species can do. But still I wouldn't post a bite pic...too embarrassing.

I would personally never get a venomous snake or a snake larger than a ball because I just want a pet not a hobby. I don't know the stats of large snakes having to be re-homed or how many owners become un-capable of giving them the proper housing/care but I have a suspicion it's high. I know there are responsible owners who cherish these amazing creatures but there is also many idiots who want a large snake so they can show their buddy after a few beers. (Nothing wrong with having beers lol) So unfortunately, as always, one bad apple ruins it for everybody.

Good luck to those who own the big guys <3 Never give up on your fight to freedom.

I can agree with no feeding posts just for the Hell of it, it is better to post them in an educational and professional way if you're going to.

I think bite photos are okay, though. I would go as far as to say they can be beneficial. Yes, a lot of people are afraid of snakes and being bitten. (I know I'm afraid of being bitten!) However, those who are interested in snakes would see just how little damage they really do to you, and I just think that can be a good thing.

I find it laughable and just factually incorrect that people honestly believe that large constrictors are given up at a higher rate than BPs and other smaller snakes. Go on Craigslist anytime and you will see dozens of BPs and corn/King/milk snakes getting rehomed because their owners were obviously deficient in some way. I rarely see a retic or Burmese Python being given away.

I would even dare to say that large constrictor owners are even MORE responsible when it comes to snake ownership and care. Sure there's the random guy who gets in over his head with a giant snake. But for every one of those there are ten others who buy a bp at an expo and 6 weeks later they are over it.

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Originally Posted by JoshSloane

I find it laughable and just factually incorrect that people honestly believe that large constrictors are given up at a higher rate than BPs and other smaller snakes. Go on Craigslist anytime and you will see dozens of BPs and corn/King/milk snakes getting rehomed because their owners were obviously deficient in some way. I rarely see a retic or Burmese Python being given away.

I would even dare to say that large constrictor owners are even MORE responsible when it comes to snake ownership and care. Sure there's the random guy who gets in over his head with a giant snake. But for every one of those there are ten others who buy a bp at an expo and 6 weeks later they are over it.

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If this was aimed at me then I would like to say I pointed out I didn't know the stats and wasn't comparing at a higher rate - trust me I see BP's and Corns on used websites all the time. Excuse my ignorance on the topic, this is a great point and you're truly right and I pray that only responsible owners acquire these large snakes. Though and that brings me back to my final thought that a few bad people ruin it for the responsible owners.

We'd have to know the total numbers of BPs and cornsnakes sold vs the number of large constrictors sold to know what percentage of each are given up or kept irresponsibly. I'm sure the number of BPs and cornsnakes produced and sold is just WAY higher than the number of large snakes produced and sold.

There's a guy in Sioux Falls who produced a clutch of burms last year. I keep seeing his ads on craigslist trying to sell the babies. I can't imagine there are 20 people (not sure how many were in the clutch. Pictures looked like there were about 20) in the state who want to and are capable of keeping a burm :/. And they can't cross state lines, right? I doubt he'll breed again if he couldn't sell the first batch.