Where to draw the line ...

So for those who choose to work with the spider gene such as myself ..... where do you draw the line on Hatchling euthanization due to wobble/cork screwing ....

How much time do you allot to evaluate an animal with a bad case and what factors do you take into consideration about the issue before making the decision?

The Hatchling is a Bumblebee, tonight was his fourth meal. He has successfully taken every feeder offered other than tonight. The last feeding it took him 3 strikes to get ahold of the mouse .... Tonight he struck at it about 8 times before landing a poor grab on the mouses butt and coiling it. I didn't get video of feeding but here are two I took after he uncoiled and was trying to eat it.

https://youtu.be/PpLUlPJC19M

In the video above I stopped the video because I thought he had it under control ...... then he dropped it and then I started the 2nd (video below)

https://youtu.be/IPsUJwsHirc

Overall he generally has a pretty bad corkscrew most of the time but is far worse when feeding as you can see.
Thanks in advance for thoughts and opinions :gj:

Im actually interested in this as well as I am working with the spider gene too.

My stance is if it eats, it stays. But I haven't been in your shoes yet so I don't know. AFAIK a wobble that bad shouldn't be a problem breeding wise in the future right?

I assume the wobble just got worse over time?

Just an update ... I did get the bumblebee to get it down the hatch after I made the OP. I heated it back up (the same as you would with a f/t) and re offered it making sure that the b.b. got it by the head so all he had to do is start working it down and it went fine, ...... this Hatchling is not one that I was going to keep, I am not concerned at all with a value of the snake or missing out on money or anything of that nature. I am simply interested in the best well-being of the animal with the condition being this severe

The problem with Spider and combos is that what you see now might be completely different in 2 weeks 2 months or a year from now, it's not clean cut like physical deformities that you know will not get better.

A change in temperature can make a difference, I have even seen an animal being ship that was a serious wobbler getting to destination and barely showing any signs (the opposite is true too).

Because it's bad now does not mean it will be forever just like an animal that is fine now does not mean it won't get worse, it's really hard to predict.

Now if the animal fail to thrive and eat on it's own that is where you have an issue and the question is the same regardless of the mutation "how long do you force feed, assist the animal for before giving up?"

My spider animals all have a slight wobble at times but they eat, breed, dedicate fine so quality of life can't be that bad. In my fire spinner I never see a wobble until he is in breeding mode while when he was hatchling he screwed around the tub the first 6 months before growing out of it. I haven't heard of too many culling off babies because of a wobble or corkscrew.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deborah

The problem with Spider and combos is that what you see now might be completely different in 2 weeks 2 months or a year from now, it's not clear cut like a physical deformities that you know will not get better.

A change in temperature can make a difference, I have even seen an animal being ship that was a serious wobbler getting to destination and barely showing any signs (the opposite is true too).

Because it's bad now does not mean it will be forever just like an animal that is fine now does not mean it won't get worse, it's really hard to predict.

Now if the animal fail to thrive and eat on it's own that is where you have an issue and the question is the same regardless of the mutation "how long do you force feed, assist the animal for before giving up?"

---

Thanks Deborah, I have had a honeybee for almost 3 years that I have seen the wobble come and go both severe and mild at times, on the other hand I have a bumblebee that I have had for 2 years and not seen a sign of the disorder at all, and a spider Hatchling that is a clutchmate to the bumblebee Hatchling in question, that has shown very little signs of the disorder to the point that if you were unfamiliar with the dynamics of the wobble you would never notice it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chilliscale

My spider animals all have a slight wobble at times but they eat, breed, dedicate fine so quality of life can't be that bad. In my fire spinner I never see a wobble until he is in breeding mode while when he was hatchling he screwed around the tub the first 6 months before growing out of it. I haven't heard of too many culling off babies because of a wobble or corkscrew.

---

This is what I've been leaning towards, I'm looking at it as "the Hatchling is a baby" hopefully as it grows it will get better at controlling it's body even with the disorder, much the same as a new Hatchling out of the egg ... the don't slither around very well for the first day or two until they get the hang of things. As Seven-Thirty said above .... as long as the Hatchling is eating and staying healthy, it will get every opportunity :gj:

Very good info by Deborah! I am another that loves the Spider gene, I have it in my Albino, Pied, and now Clown projects. I have been fortunate in the aspect of not dealing with severe wobble, I have one that has a mild wobble but doesn't alter her quality of life none. :salute:

My spider het ghost orange ghost and bumble bee have slight wobble/corkscrew. Twitch noticeable when eating. My albino spider has bad wobble/corkscrew when held and bad twitch when eating.

Sent from my SM-G900R4 using Tapatalk

That was awful to watch :( I don't know if euthanasia is appropriate, personally. You bred the animal knowing that it might have the condition to this degree. I think if you believe that a bad wobble is enough to justify an animal not existing then it should not have been created in the first place.

It's good that he's able to eat though. I hope he eventually learns to cope with his condition better with time

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cristacake

That was awful to watch :( I don't know if euthanasia is appropriate, personally. You bred the animal knowing that it might have the condition to this degree. I think if you believe that a bad wobble is enough to justify an animal not existing then it should not have been created in the first place.

---

I'm a big supporter of this philosophy. If there are going to be this many problems, why continue to breed them? There are so many other beautiful variations out there that are far less risky to the snake. Again, just my opinion but I am also against breeding while there are so many snakes out there without homes or in improper/poor homes.

Anyway, as far as quality of life is concerned, I don't think it's fair to ask another human being, and it's not possible to ask the animals, so there's your answer. We have no idea what quality of life is like even for a healthy and seemingly "happy" snake, let alone one with issues. I will say that working with animals both wild and domestic my whole life, most animals (especially reptiles and wild critters) are masters at disguising pain and just because they eat, drink, and go through the motions of life doesn't mean they are happy, aren't in pain, or are enjoying life. I've manipulated broken bones on all kinds of animals that don't make a peep or even "look like they're in pain," but this doesn't mean they aren't experiencing something terrifying and excruciating.

There is not enough research to feel good about assuming anything about any ball python's quality of life. With that being said, why continue to breed a line with so many issues and wonder? I'd rather feel better about a seemingly healthy BP Normal, than worry about something I can never get an answer to. Survival =/= Happiness OR quality of life.

Again, just my 2 cents...

That hurt my heart.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

I am probably going to get laughed right out of the place for this one but after watching that vid I can't think of a better animal to try this experiment on. Both of my spiders were train wrecks when i got them. Not quite as bad as the videos but pretty bad. A close friend of mine that is a doctor(not a vet) was over at the house and I had my first spider out and he observed the behavior. We examined my animals and what was noticed across my collection when comparing snakes at less than a year old the spiders had horrible muscle tone. They felt soft especially in the first third of the body compared to other snakes. I gave it some thought and I began exercising the spiders for about a half hour every other day. This basically consisted of letting them crawl around on the floor and handling them in a fashion that made them support themselves with the last third of their body. As time went on the uncontrolled body motions reduced and the animals muscle tone improved. Every once in awhile there is a slight relapse, but it is nothing like it was in the beginning. I have no doubt that the spiders have a neurological problem however making them exercise seemed to improve their condition. This is by no means a scientific experiment. I am only making observations at this point. Next year I should have more spiders to work with. If you have the time please give this a shot and let me know if there is any change in the animal's behavior. In any case please do not put it down yet. I would rather buy the animal from you than to see that happen.

Not laughing I think it's a good Idea in low level stress area's

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

I am probably going to get laughed right out of the place for this one but after watching that vid I can't think of a better animal to try this experiment on. Both of my spiders were train wrecks when i got them. Not quite as bad as the videos but pretty bad. A close friend of mine that is a doctor(not a vet) was over at the house and I had my first spider out and he observed the behavior. We examined my animals and what was noticed across my collection when comparing snakes at less than a year old the spiders had horrible muscle tone. They felt soft especially in the first third of the body compared to other snakes. I gave it some thought and I began exercising the spiders for about a half hour every other day. This basically consisted of letting them crawl around on the floor and handling them in a fashion that made them support themselves with the last third of their body. As time went on the uncontrolled body motions reduced and the animals muscle tone improved. Every once in awhile there is a slight relapse, but it is nothing like it was in the beginning. I have no doubt that the spiders have a neurological problem however making them exercise seemed to improve their condition. This is by no means a scientific experiment. I am only making observations at this point. Next year I should have more spiders to work with. If you have the time please give this a shot and let me know if there is any change in the animal's behavior. In any case please do not put it down yet. I would rather buy the animal from you than to see that happen.

---

That's interesting. I have a spinner that didn't exhibit much wobble as a youngster, but she was in a fairly large tank for the first year of her life (because I got her when I was just starting out, so... tanks...) and she was rather active. Eventually she was moved to a 41-qt tub but since she was still fairly small I think she gave herself a good bit of exercise. It's only in the last year that she's really shown any wobble when stressed or excited, and now I wonder if lack of exercise has something to do with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

I am probably going to get laughed right out of the place for this one but after watching that vid I can't think of a better animal to try this experiment on. Both of my spiders were train wrecks when i got them. Not quite as bad as the videos but pretty bad. A close friend of mine that is a doctor(not a vet) was over at the house and I had my first spider out and he observed the behavior. We examined my animals and what was noticed across my collection when comparing snakes at less than a year old the spiders had horrible muscle tone. They felt soft especially in the first third of the body compared to other snakes. I gave it some thought and I began exercising the spiders for about a half hour every other day. This basically consisted of letting them crawl around on the floor and handling them in a fashion that made them support themselves with the last third of their body. As time went on the uncontrolled body motions reduced and the animals muscle tone improved. Every once in awhile there is a slight relapse, but it is nothing like it was in the beginning. I have no doubt that the spiders have a neurological problem however making them exercise seemed to improve their condition. This is by no means a scientific experiment. I am only making observations at this point. Next year I should have more spiders to work with. If you have the time please give this a shot and let me know if there is any change in the animal's behavior. In any case please do not put it down yet. I would rather buy the animal from you than to see that happen.

---

This is a very interesting concept ..... Tomorrow is feeding day for that lil feller and clutchmates, however on the 12th bumblebee therapy begins :gj:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by T_Sauer

This is a very interesting concept ..... Tomorrow is feeding day for that lil feller and clutchmates, however on the 12th bumblebee therapy begins :gj:

---

Thank you and good luck. Please let me know how it goes.

Wow. That was hard to watch.
I wouldn't put that snake down if it was able to feed and basically function, but I would question the ethics of breeding the spider gene knowing that the wobble is part and parcel of it. I know other morphs have their issues, like how super lessers sometimes have bug eyes. But it doesn't seem like the bug eyes really affect the snake's quality of life; it just looks goofy (correct me if I'm wrong, though). That might also be a reason to avoid producing the super form, but not a reason to avoid breeding lessers at all if only one copy of the gene doesn't produce that defect.
It would be very hard to make the case that a severe wobble like in the video doesn't affect the snake's quality of life. Who knows how much the snake really is or isn't suffering when that happens; maybe it's frustrating, maybe it's terrifying, maybe it's neither. But I doubt it's pleasant. OK, some spiders barely wobble at all and there are lots of spectacular morphs that have that gene, but knowingly propagating a genetic issue like that is not something I would do.

All that said, I'd be really interested to know how your "exercise program" works out! I think it's completely plausible for exercise to help mitigate that condition, whether by improving balance/equilibrium, improving muscular control/coordination, developing and reinforcing a wider variety of pathways for motor control, or just increased strength providing better stability. Like occupational therapy for snakes!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

I am probably going to get laughed right out of the place for this one but after watching that vid I can't think of a better animal to try this experiment on. Both of my spiders were train wrecks when i got them. Not quite as bad as the videos but pretty bad. A close friend of mine that is a doctor(not a vet) was over at the house and I had my first spider out and he observed the behavior. We examined my animals and what was noticed across my collection when comparing snakes at less than a year old the spiders had horrible muscle tone. They felt soft especially in the first third of the body compared to other snakes. I gave it some thought and I began exercising the spiders for about a half hour every other day. This basically consisted of letting them crawl around on the floor and handling them in a fashion that made them support themselves with the last third of their body. As time went on the uncontrolled body motions reduced and the animals muscle tone improved. Every once in awhile there is a slight relapse, but it is nothing like it was in the beginning. I have no doubt that the spiders have a neurological problem however making them exercise seemed to improve their condition. This is by no means a scientific experiment. I am only making observations at this point. Next year I should have more spiders to work with. If you have the time please give this a shot and let me know if there is any change in the animal's behavior. In any case please do not put it down yet. I would rather buy the animal from you than to see that happen.

---

Interesting theory, wonder how it will work on this b.b. , also will keep this in mind for my spiders :sweeet:

Generally my pewter bee gets it sometimes while feeding that he just goes wobble mode, or when he finds something exciting (like right before he darts off out of his tub :rolleyes:, i always know when he is up to something!)

Thanks everybody. Any data or experiences with these guys would be appreciated. The number of spiders I have is just too small at this point to do a controlled experiment.

It would be challenging to conduct an experiment with any kind of rigor, but maybe you could improve on a sample size of one by recruiting other forum members with spiders and actually do a randomized experiment? Like, assemble a list of snakes belonging to game forum members, randomly assign them to either get Snake Occupational Therapy or to just get handled for the same amount of time (and maybe a third group without any change, if there were enough volunteers?), but without the OT aspect. Someone would have to come up with a rubric for evaluating the severity of the wobble, and a specific procedure for the OT. It wouldn't hold up to peer review or anything, but if the OT really is effective, there should be at least some clear evidence.