David EATS Goliath! (video)

I finally got a good video of Irwin eating! I had to mount a camera to the inside of his cage and wait an hour to retrieve it but it was worth it. I know there are lots of feeding vids out there, but i think this might be a pretty good one (its a musical!) Just to recap what it says in the description; Irwin is not a baby, he's a 2 year old dwarf. His breeder prescribed small rats, which (to me) look insanely huge next to him. Before his first feeding i took pics of the rat and texted them to her to make sure i didn't misunderstand. She said he would be fine and indeed he was! As some of you know i'm quite new to snake keeping, so tell me, is this an unusually large rat for his size? I mean he's been eating them for a couple of months now so i'm not actually worried about his health, but i'm just trying to gain better insight into the hobby.
Also, my new favorite home movie of my 3 and a half year old son holding Irwin all by himself at the end for those of you who are suckers for cute kids (as i am)

here's the YOUTUBE link - i am linking it rather than embedding it in the thread b/c i like to see the "views" counter climb https://ball-pythons.net/forums/images/icons/icon6.png

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbPzmNi8rT0

ENJOY!

Looks like a perfect size to me. Just as big as the thickest part of his body like it should be. Awesome video that was hilarious!

Hahaha, good video! Loved the song choices and subtitles. :)

The rat size looked fine when you see the largest part of his body.

If it works, great. Me personally I prefer to feed smaller prey. Vicky who is just a smidge over 4' was on weaned rats, I just upgraded her to small rats. And Rosey who is my 6' girl has just upgraded to small rabbits. Regarding feeding though, 10 days to me is way too soon for such a big meal. Like I said, I feed all my gals smaller prey on a 3-4 week schedule except Dottie who just recently started eating again after her 5 month winter fast. I'm feeding her on a 2-3 week schedule. If you read a post I put up about how snakes change physically after eating(heart can get 140% of normal and their lungs, liver and everything else doubles in size as well and the effects can last 2 weeks), definitely makes you rethink how often to feed them. Especially the guy who fed his boa a squirrel he shot in backyard once a month and that boa lived into its 40s. That's crazy.

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

If it works, great. Me personally I prefer to feed smaller prey. Vicky who is just a smidge over 4' was on weaned rats, I just upgraded her to small rats. And Rosey who is my 6' girl has just upgraded to small rabbits. Regarding feeding though, 10 days to me is way too soon for such a big meal. Like I said, I feed all my gals smaller prey on a 3-4 week schedule except Dottie who just recently started eating again after her 5 month winter fast. I'm feeding her on a 2-3 week schedule. If you read a post I put up about how snakes change physically after eating(heart can get 140% of normal and their lungs, liver and everything else doubles in size as well and the effects can last 2 weeks), definitely makes you rethink how often to feed them. Especially the guy who fed his boa a squirrel he shot in backyard once a month and that boa lived into its 40s. That's crazy.

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i just read the article and thread, both very interesting. Let me throw this at you (and everyone else): My understanding is that my boa is at an age of major growth (almost 2 years old) and that 10 - 14 days between relatively big meals (right around the size of the mid body) is healthy up until sexual maturity is reached (5 years or so), at which point 3 weeks to a month between meals is sufficient. What do we think? Also, regarding the metabolic processes involved with digestion - is there any correlation in time between deification and preparedness for the next meal? Irwin poops 7 days after a meal like clockwork, this seems like a good thing (as Scatman said, "Ya' gotta keep regular if you want to be happy!") but i really dont know.
And let me ask a newbie question, how the hell can i tell if my snake is hungry? I am slowly learning his communication cues, at this point all i can really read is "I am pissed off" and "I am not pissed off". OK OK, in all seriousness, i do feel like i am getting a feel for his subtler moods, but hunger is tricky.

Oh man, I think my favourite part was the end with Desi holding Irwin. :love: So adorable! Great video, I also got a kick out of the song choice. :P They sure know how to take their time eating sometimes, haha.

But in regards to knowing when your snake is hungry... For me, I just learn how my snakes act. Usually they tend to be more on the calm side of just hanging out, but if I notice them reacting to movement in the room and seeing them come out and explore more than usual, I go towards them being hungry. It's only reinforced when they get the sniff of rat and really look like they want to come out to play, haha. All my snakes are visible because they aren't in tubs though, so I get to see them everyday whenever I'm around and can watch how they act a lot of the time.

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Originally Posted by ratchet

Oh man, I think my favourite part was the end with Desi holding Irwin. :love: So adorable! Great video, I also got a kick out of the song choice. :P They sure know how to take their time eating sometimes, haha.

But in regards to knowing when your snake is hungry... For me, I just learn how my snakes act. Usually they tend to be more on the calm side of just hanging out, but if I notice them reacting to movement in the room and seeing them come out and explore more than usual, I go towards them being hungry. It's only reinforced when they get the sniff of rat and really look like they want to come out to play, haha. All my snakes are visible because they aren't in tubs though, so I get to see them everyday whenever I'm around and can watch how they act a lot of the time.

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Thanks, Desi has his own "pet" snake that he named Big Irwin, but little Irwin is still his favorite.
https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...03984377_o.jpg

regarding hunger cues, to be honest, during the day Irwin is usually in one of his hides, seems like i only see him crawling around at night when i use a flashlight check to his temp and humidity before bed. When i take him out to play during the day i almost always have to wake him up, he tries to get away, but as son as he's out of the cage he starts playing. So maybe if i go in during the day and he comes out rather than tucking in, he might be hungry?? (I know this is all wild hypothesis here, but just for the sake of conversation)

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Originally Posted by dkatz4

Thanks, Desi has his own "pet" snake that he named Big Irwin, but little Irwin is still his favorite.

regarding hunger cues, to be honest, during the day Irwin is usually in one of his hides, seems like i only see him crawling around at night when i use a flashlight check to his temp and humidity before bed. When i take him out to play during the day i almost always have to wake him up, he tries to get away, but as son as he's out of the cage he starts playing. So maybe if i go in during the day and he comes out rather than tucking in, he might be hungry?? (I know this is all wild hypothesis here, but just for the sake of conversation)

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Looks like he's a little herper in the making! :) Too cute!

Yeah, my boa is very much the same. I guess it's just my ball pythons that make my previous statement true. :rofl: If I see more than the nose of my Dum at any time, I get excited... She's just on a slower feeding schedule due to her slow metabolism alone and I don't really stick to a legit "every ___ weeks" with her either... once or twice a month, really. I do have to say, if I see her out more, I do lean towards her being a little more hungry. She's tough to read, but she's always been on the chubbier side to me anyways. :P I hope that doesn't make me out to be a horrible boa owner, haha.

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Originally Posted by dkatz4

i just read the article and thread, both very interesting. Let me throw this at you (and everyone else): My understanding is that my boa is at an age of major growth (almost 2 years old) and that 10 - 14 days between relatively big meals (right around the size of the mid body) is healthy up until sexual maturity is reached (5 years or so), at which point 3 weeks to a month between meals is sufficient. What do we think? Also, regarding the metabolic processes involved with digestion - is there any correlation in time between deification and preparedness for the next meal? Irwin poops 7 days after a meal like clockwork, this seems like a good thing (as Scatman said, "Ya' gotta keep regular if you want to be happy!") but i really dont know.
And let me ask a newbie question, how the hell can i tell if my snake is hungry? I am slowly learning his communication cues, at this point all i can really read is "I am pissed off" and "I am not pissed off". OK OK, in all seriousness, i do feel like i am getting a feel for his subtler moods, but hunger is tricky.

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I always feed on a schedule, to ensure the snake is getting time for their organs to return to a normal state and stay there for a bit. Even feeding my boa a large rat every 4-5 weeks and fasting him 90 days, he's still getting more food than he would in the wild, but spacing it out like that is much healthier.

Until he turns 3, yes, 10-14 days is appropriate. But as Sauzo mentioned, I would err closer to 14 days than 10 days with that size of a meal. It's not overly large, but it's not something I personally would feed my boas of his age every feeding. The older they are, the smaller the bulge you want to see.

Males reach sexual maturity at 18 months, and reach physical maturity at 5-6 years, maybe even up to 9 years. Females reach sexual maturity at 4 years, and physical maturity at 5-6, up to 9 years.

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Originally Posted by dkatz4

i just read the article and thread, both very interesting. Let me throw this at you (and everyone else): My understanding is that my boa is at an age of major growth (almost 2 years old) and that 10 - 14 days between relatively big meals (right around the size of the mid body) is healthy up until sexual maturity is reached (5 years or so), at which point 3 weeks to a month between meals is sufficient. What do we think? Also, regarding the metabolic processes involved with digestion - is there any correlation in time between deification and preparedness for the next meal? Irwin poops 7 days after a meal like clockwork, this seems like a good thing (as Scatman said, "Ya' gotta keep regular if you want to be happy!") but i really dont know.
And let me ask a newbie question, how the hell can i tell if my snake is hungry? I am slowly learning his communication cues, at this point all i can really read is "I am pissed off" and "I am not pissed off". OK OK, in all seriousness, i do feel like i am getting a feel for his subtler moods, but hunger is tricky.

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Up to you. Some say its fine, some say its not. I fed all my gals every 7-10 days until a year old. Then I switched them to every 2-3 weeks until 2 years old. Then after 2 years, I do 3-4 weeks. It also depends on food size too. I try and vary their foods, the sizes and the amount of time for feeding. Like my big girl Rosey gets rabbits and rats and when I find a local quail guy, probably quail in the diet too. Sometimes she gets a small rabbit, sometimes a medium rat, other times a weaned rabbit. Then I also vary her time, sometimes 3 weeks for the smaller prey and 4 weeks for larger prey. Same with Vicky, she gets large mice, weaned rats, small rats and when she is large enough, weaned rabbits. Going by pooping isn't that accurate imo as Rosey poops pretty much every 3 weeks but Vicky only poops likes once a month is not longer and she is the younger and smaller snake. I'm floored your boa poops every 7 days. Heck even Dottie the BP only poops like once every 2 weeks and shes a python who have faster metabolism than boas.

You can stick to every 2 weeks with a huge meal but I would be ready to back off quick if you see him putting on weight especially if you see "boa hips" forming. They will be fat deposits back by the vent, looks kind of like someone cut the snake at the vent and glued on a thinner tail, kind of like bottlenecked down in size. Don't confuse that with "sausage butt" though as that just means you possibly run the risk of getting a brown hotdog gift :P.

The problem with feeding too often is you wont see fatty liver until the snake is dead and if you have a necropsy done. The breeder I got Vicky from, we talked awhile before I bought her and we talked about out first snakes and he told me his birst boa he got died after 10 years because he overfed it. He said it died from a heart attack and it was 10 years old. He feeds all his babies every 14 days. Now i'm guesing part of that is a small snake is easier to sell than a larger snake and also it cuts down on his cost but the other part is i'm sure he wants to start people off with a healthy snake and not one that is already loaded with fat and possibly starting to suffer from fatty liver.

Bottom line, it is much easier to fatten a boa up if needed than trying to get a fat boa skinnier. Plus an underweight boa assuming its not completely emaciated and dehydrated will be in better condition than a completely obese boa who will probably already have liver damage not to mention heart and lung issues probably too.

Great video and the boy is quite cute.

Sauzo, thanks for the thorough reply! Let me clarify one thing: he poops 7 days after eating, not every 7 days. I know exactly what you mean by "hips", such a bad look, can't imagine why anyone lets it get to that point (not trying body-shame). A little tricky for me to vary food type- not many options in my area, but I will keep an eye out. Seems like for the time being I will add a few days to my current schedule, keep it closer to a full two weeks or more, then slow way down after his 2 year old growth spurt. To be honest, when I got him I was nervous about keeping a snake so I saught one out that would be little, but after getting comfortable I realize that a big guy would've been great so I want to allow him to reach his full size potential but safely and healthfully. I was aware of the dangers of over feeding, but didn't realize how easy it is to do so accidentally. I guess the best thing to do is just appreciate Irwin for his cute little self and get him a BIG friend :-D.

Their growth spurt is during their second year, so you're not entering it, it's about to end. My boa went from growing 2-3" every other week to barely any growth once he turned 2. He grew maybe a foot by the time he turned 3, and he's grown half a foot since he turned 3, and he's going to be 5 in August.

Boas grow slowly, and dwarves even slower, it doesn't matter if it takes them a little longer to get to size, and is actually healthier. 3'-4' is a reasonable size for a dwarf male, so it's possible he may only grow another foot at most.


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The background music was the best ever!

If you guys haven't seen the "Cambodian boy sleeps with python" video, that is what an EXTREMELY overfed snake looks like. And pythons are harder to overfeed.
Supposedly they fed this burm 4-5 chickens a week and gave it to the zoo because they "no longer could afford to feed it" lol. Little did they know one of those chickens a month would've been more than sufficient.
You can really obviously see those "hips". The tail is ridiculously narrow compared to the body.

Heres a link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8uPhuXQNiM

It's pretty funny that the narrator is worried about the snake eating the boy. The poor snake is so fat it can barely move!

I see what you mean about the python, that thing can barely move, I wonder if it has slimmed down at the sanctuary. Makes sad to think of they day it left, must have been heartbreaking for the kid.

Kam! How goes the search? Find a new friend yet?

Update: despite my bragging he has not pooped yet but he did have a nice clean shed so I went ahead and fed him again yesterday which was exactly 2 weeks from his last meal (video). This rat was a bit smaller than the last one though still in the same size category just on the small end of it. I recorded it again, not for another silly video but just for my own edification. once again he kept it clamped for about two minutes and sniffed around for 15 minutes before actually eating. Any ideas about this behavior? I'm not worried or anything because he is eating just fine but very curious.

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Originally Posted by CloudtheBoa

I always feed on a schedule, to ensure the snake is getting time for their organs to return to a normal state and stay there for a bit. Even feeding my boa a large rat every 4-5 weeks and fasting him 90 days, he's still getting more food than he would in the wild, but spacing it out like that is much healthier.

Until he turns 3, yes, 10-14 days is appropriate. But as Sauzo mentioned, I would err closer to 14 days than 10 days with that size of a meal. It's not overly large, but it's not something I personally would feed my boas of his age every feeding. The older they are, the smaller the bulge you want to see.

Males reach sexual maturity at 18 months, and reach physical maturity at 5-6 years, maybe even up to 9 years. Females reach sexual maturity at 4 years, and physical maturity at 5-6, up to 9 years.

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This is solid info.

It is extremely important to let the snake (boa constrictor in particular) empty out completely. There are several important chemical and organ size changes that occur during feeding and digestion. It is critical that a BC has the time to enter, process, complete the entire cycle and stabilize for a time.

Gus Rentfro is my favorite authority on boa constrictors. He is world class when it comes to knowledge of these animals and has deep knowledge of the feeding habits in captivity and in the wild.

Vin Russo (friend of Gus's) states in his book, THE COMPLETE BOA CONSTRICTOR that he found BCs to grow more when they are NOT fed over the winter.

The largest of the boas are found in the wild and they are the oldest snakes. That is according to Gus Rentfro.

You may hear of big boas in captivity, but many of them are on the fast track to a short life and will probably not reach their true size potential.

A HEALTHY, large BC should have no problem living into it's late 20's. Breeders, like Rentfro, have had boas nearly 30 years old produce perfect litters after breeding.

So as far as feeding goes; I most certainly would let your BC completely empty out before feeding again.

If you feed large once, allow some time and then feed a smaller meal next. Mix up your prey type for variation in diet. Rats, quail, small, small rabbits, (if it can handle them in time), and use variation in prey size as well.

The "schedule" I follow is actually no schedule at all. The boa's digestion process and activity level dictates how I'll feed. If you want a more active BC, feed less. You will see hunting behaviors and a lot more moving around than what a "fat and happy" BC would show you. This is very similar to snakes with very high metabolisms. They eat, clean out and start moving. Boas will hunt and forage, but they need to be hungry to do it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a hungry BC.



Once fully mature, I'd drop your temps in the winter and skip feeding through the season until spring.


Gus once wrote that he felt it was very easy to overfeed a BC, but almost impossible to underfeed one.

OK,

That was my rant.

Have fun and enjoy your boa!

Neat video too.

Very informative rant, Geo. Thanks for all the info. Now I had read from a variety of sources that it was perfectly fine to feed my snake before he poops, are you saying that maybe that is not such a good idea? Just to be clear? Also bear in mind that my snake is not a baby but is not done with the initial growth stage of his life either, not quite two years old yet.
On a slightly related note I would love to pick up a copy of vin's "complete boa" but it is a very big and very expensive book – I wonder if there is an abridged version for people who have absolutely no interest in breeding?

It actually isn't that big a book. Expensive maybe. It's $40 on Amazon.

(There's also a lot of big photos in there, so the reading is quite manageable.)

As far as waiting for poop I usually don't, unless my snake reliably poops before their next scheduled feeding day. In which case I'm not really waiting.

That said, my sunglow poops maybe every 2 months or every 3-4 meals, but she gets fed every 10-14 days. I may space her out even more if I need to though...

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...90925b7483.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...54f55446d9.jpg


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You got a weird taste in music bro

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Originally Posted by dkatz4

Very informative rant, Geo. Thanks for all the info. Now I had read from a variety of sources that it was perfectly fine to feed my snake before he poops, are you saying that maybe that is not such a good idea? Just to be clear? Also bear in mind that my snake is not a baby but is not done with the initial growth stage of his life either, not quite two years old yet.
On a slightly related note I would love to pick up a copy of vin's "complete boa" but it is a very big and very expensive book – I wonder if there is an abridged version for people who have absolutely no interest in breeding?

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I would wait, and Gus states that all signs of the previous meal should be gone before feeding again.

Put it this way you'll never hurt your boa by waiting.

There IS a smaller version of that book as well.

http://www.amazon.com/Boas-Captivity...X9FE4FDKS4N5AV

As Cloud mentioned though, the first book is not that large or expensive. It is one of the best books on boa constrictors out there.

This is another book I like.

http://www.amazon.com/Constrictor-Ma...WX1MSJDQHS4FWC

hmm I guess the Russo isn't so big/expensive if you think of it as a text book, I'm just more accustomed to judging a book by how easily I can read it on the train. Let me ask you, is the paperback abridged in anyway, or just shrunk down in size?
now im thinking my dude's first poops may have been an anomaly, maybe related to stress of a new home? Meh, I'm starting to think I am getting ahead of myself looking for patterns and habits in an animal I've only had for 6 weeks. I just don't want my learning curve to have an adverse effect on him.
Thanks for all the thoughtful responses, everyone. I don't really have any snake friends IRL, good to have these forums.