Total Albino Confusion

Okay my eyes are crossed, my dishes aren't done and I'm seriously considering giving up on BP morph research and just buying myself a nice fat obnoxious toy poodle and retiring to my porch swing to sip vodka!!!

Someone pls explain in plain english this albino thing to me. I've seen pics of a carmel albino, an albino, a carmel, a carmel glow....and then this issue of T-, T+ crops up. What confuses me is a carmel albino also called a carmel or are they different morphs altogether? If a carmel albino is some sort of albino can it be mated to a "regular" albino. What the heck is T- T+ (best I could figure out in my currently confuddled state is it's some sort of genetic that does or doesn't produce a dark coloring).

All this started when I found a picture of this gorgeous male snake that is tones of carmel...from rich to darker with no white or black. They labelled it a "carmel" and I got hooked on the beauty of it.

Anyone know where I can buy aforementioned poodle (the vodka I can get myself) LOL

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Okay my eyes are crossed, my dishes aren't done and I'm seriously considering giving up on BP morph research and just buying myself a nice fat obnoxious toy poodle and retiring to my porch swing to sip vodka!!!

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Grey goose I hope ... come on over, I have a bottle in the freezer! :P

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

What confuses me is a carmel albino also called a carmel or are they different morphs altogether?

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Same thing ... "caramel" is just short for caramel albino.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

If a carmel albino is some sort of albino can it be mated to a "regular" albino.

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Sure, you can breed anything to anything. But as of right now, they are two distinct and separate morphs, so breeding them together will produce normal looking snakes that carry the genes for both.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

What the heck is T- T+ (best I could figure out in my currently confuddled state is it's some sort of genetic that does or doesn't produce a dark coloring).

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The T+ and T- refer to two different types of albinism. The "T" is short for "tyrosinase" which is an enzyme responsible for the production of melanin and other pigments. Traditional albinos are said to be "T -" or tyrosinase negative (lacking the enzyme tyrosinase) which prevents the animal from producing it's natural coloration. Caramels are a different form of albinism where tyrosinase is believed to be preset (hence the tyrosinase positive or "T+" label), but functioning differently from normal appearing animals. All that said, I don't believe that any ball python has ever been tested for the presence of (or lack of) tyrosinase so it's all really just speculation. But it works for me! :D

Here's a picture of a T- next to a T+ ....

http://www.8ballpythons.com/uploads/...s-03310501.jpg

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

producing it's natural coloration. Caramels are a different form of albinism where tyrosinase is believed to be preset (hence the tyrosinase positive or "T+" label), but functioning differently from normal appearing animals. All that said, I don't believe that any ball python has ever been tested for the presence of (or lack of) tyrosinase so it's all really just speculation. But it works for me! :D

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Adam, are the different variations of regular albinos (high contrast, regular, lavender) just variations of a T-?

Adam my hero! You've saved me from a sad life of iced vodka and long rambling talks with Fifi about what outfit she'd like to wear today (hmmm the iced vodka bit wasn't all that sad really LOL)

Thanks for the clear explanation and the pic was awesome. Just a few more questions (the carmel is now my dream snake). I've also seen something called a Lavender Albino. How does this morph fit in with these other two albinos as far as the T thing, etc.

Looking at pics of carmels some seem more yellow, others darker. Is this just a genetic roll of dice thing (like how much white a pied will be) or do certain "lines" of carmels exhibit certain shades predominantly. Or perhaps carmels change shade with age?

Research said carmel albino is a simple recessive. Having just fried my brain with punnet squares....you have to breed either two 100% hets or a carmel to a 100% het, or a carmel to a carmel to produce any chance of a carmel correct? Have I got this anywhere near right?

For other newcomers reading this...I also found Markus Jayne's site (Canadian) helped a lot as well with this confusion.

http://www.ballpython.ca/genetics.html

In keeping with the whole vodka thing, Adam, I love Grey Goose but I am also VERY fond of Level Vodka. What are your thoughts on it!?

*Edit* Oh, yeah, nice pics BTW! LMAO! I guess the vodka talk got me thinking in the wrong places first!

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Adam my hero! You've saved me from a sad life of iced vodka and long rambling talks with Fifi about what outfit she'd like to wear today (hmmm the iced vodka bit wasn't all that sad really LOL)

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You didn't know that I have an "S" on my chest did you? ;) (but if you've seen "The Incredibles" you would know that I don't have a cape) :P

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Thanks for the clear explanation and the pic was awesome. Just a few more questions (the carmel is now my dream snake). I've also seen something called a Lavender Albino. How does this morph fit in with these other two albinos as far as the T thing, etc.

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Well, no one really knows .... Since the tyrosinase thing is all theory in ball pythons (until someone actually does the test) we can only speculate. The popular belief is that the Lavs are also a form of T-. And if that's not confusing enough, wait until you see the red albino. :D

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Looking at pics of carmels some seem more yellow, others darker. Is this just a genetic roll of dice thing (like how much white a pied will be) or do certain "lines" of carmels exhibit certain shades predominantly. Or perhaps carmels change shade with age?

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Well, all ball pythons go through an ontogenetic color change, so older animals will always be darker and less crisp than juvis. I think the natural color variation of caramels is just like with any other morph ... there are screamers, lookers, and klunkers and screamers can throw klunkers and klunkers can produce screamers. It's all about trying to selectively breed for the best animals that you can. This is all very new really and we are just beginning to learn.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Research said carmel albino is a simple recessive. Having just fried my brain with punnet squares....you have to breed either two 100% hets or a carmel to a 100% het, or a carmel to a carmel to produce any chance of a carmel correct? Have I got this anywhere near right?

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Yes ...

Het X Het = 25% of the clutch should be caramels, 50% of the clutch should be hets, and 25% of the clutch should be normals
Caramel x Het = 50% of the clutch should be caramels and 50% of the clutch should be hets
Caramel x Caramel = all of the clutch will be caramels.

But these are just the odds, with the exception of the caramel X caramel breeding, you could do better (more caramels) or worse (less or no caramels). It's just a matter of how the genes line up.

-adam

Also, just to clear things up a little more - a Caramel Glow is a caramel albino X orange ghost - basically a double homozygous mutation.
http://newenglandreptile.com/forumpics/carglow.jpg


And now to confuse things...we've hatched T+ albinos & T- albinos in the same clutch before, from our original Caramel male bred back to one of his daughters. Weird, huh? :O

K~

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Originally Posted by Eddie_Z

In keeping with the whole vodka thing, Adam, I love Grey Goose but I am also VERY fond of Level Vodka. What are your thoughts on it!?

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Bro, I'll drink anything that's not nailed down, and even then I'll try and find a straw, so just bring it!! :twisted:

Seriously though, I've never tried Level ... I'll have to check it out ... I'm really mostly a corona and quervo guy. You know ... Bottle, shot ... Bottle, shot .... shot, Bottle, shot, shot .... shot, shot, shot .... Bottle ... shot ... sleep. :D

-adam

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Originally Posted by KLG

Also, just to clear things up a little more - a Caramel Glow is a caramel albino X orange ghost - basically a double homozygous mutation.
http://newenglandreptile.com/forumpics/carglow.jpg


And now to confuse things...we've hatched T+ albinos & T- albinos in the same clutch before, from our original Caramel male bred back to one of his daughters. Weird, huh? :O

K~

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:O WOWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!! Check out those COLORS!!!! I want one!!! :please: :D

*rubbing eyes* okay either I'm over-tired or my monitor is acting up...or did I just see a picture of a snake with what looked like purple, orange, cream, etc colors.....Carmel Glow???? If my computer showed me true colors that is about the most amazing looking ball python I've ever seen!

Wondering at this point if there's any possibility of being legally adopted by the people who run N.E.R.D. --- I'm a little old for it but hey I eat cheap, like to clean things, and I promise not to drag Mike and the kids along as part of the deal! LOL

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Originally Posted by KLG

Also, just to clear things up a little more - a Caramel Glow is a caramel albino X orange ghost - basically a double homozygous mutation.
K~

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:O Kara, I wish you would stop showing off your Photoshop skills. J/K That is one purple-y snake! So when are the red and blue ones coming out? ;)

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Originally Posted by xdeus

:O Kara, I wish you would stop showing off your Photoshop skills. J/K That is one purple-y snake! So when are the red and blue ones coming out? ;)

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If you think that's hot, you should see the real deal ... that snake looks 1000 times more amazing in person!!!! ;)

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

If you think that's hot, you should see the real deal ... that snake looks 1000 times more amazing in person!!!! ;)

-adam

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"Lucky!!!"

-Napoleon Dynamite

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Seriously though, I've never tried Level ... I'll have to check it out ... I'm really mostly a corona and quervo guy. You know ... Bottle, shot ... Bottle, shot .... shot, Bottle, shot, shot .... shot, shot, shot .... Bottle ... shot ... sleep. :D

-adam

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For real bro!! That is why Cinco de Mayo is one of my favorite holidays & I aint even spanish!!

You've seen this snake personally Adam! Lucky bugger! I can't imagine the awe that one would feel when a snake of that calibre emerges.

beautiful glow, K. :)

does the color of the hypo play a big part in the appearance of the glow or do they all pretty much look the same? the different hypo trait might be why some glows....glow a bit more than others??

She's the only Caramel Glow so far (at least in our collection - haven't heard of anyone else hatching one, either), but I think the orange ghost component adds a lot to the lavender coloration.

Hopefully we'll hatch a few more this year for comparison! :)

K~

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Originally Posted by KLG

She's the only Caramel Glow so far (at least in our collection - haven't heard of anyone else hatching one, either), but I think the orange ghost component adds a lot to the lavender coloration.

Hopefully we'll hatch a few more this year for comparison! :)

K~

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Just curious... how much would a girl like her go for?

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Originally Posted by KLG

She's the only Caramel Glow so far (at least in our collection - haven't heard of anyone else hatching one, either), but I think the orange ghost component adds a lot to the lavender coloration.

Hopefully we'll hatch a few more this year for comparison! :)

K~

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good deal.... :) I love to compare....I think the difference in hypo colors could give a good variety to appearances of Caramel glows.

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Originally Posted by Isshinharu

Just curious... how much would a girl like her go for?

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Hmmm....let's see...she's the only one thus far, so not for sale.

K~

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Originally Posted by KLG

Hmmm....let's see...she's the only one thus far, so not for sale.

K~

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Ok... was just curious for the 'wow' factor I guess. I've seen others on the NERD website for $35k and $38k, so I could only imagine. n/m :oops:

Edit: By 'others' I meant other morphs... not caramel glow.

(can't edit my post... :frustrate )

red albino??? well gee thank you kindly Adam LOL now instead of going to bed at a decent hour I'll be a-googling for ages to find a pic of one!!!!

Is there some sort of mental disorder yet unrecognized by the medical community wherein one decides to get a nice lil normal ball python for a pet, then gets sucked into morphs and becomes completely fascinated???? If so, I want it named after ME! LMAO (We've spent more time this month discussing our future snakes love life than our own...you people are wrecking my marriage! )

believe me....you are not the first one with that condition :)

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

(We've spent more time this month discussing our future snakes love life than our own...)

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:shh: shhhh! my husband hasn't realized that this is true for us too! :P

The names do get confusing. I THINK they go something like this with the following being groups of different interchangeable names you sometimes see for the three different types of albino proven so far.

1. Caramel = Caramel Albino = T+ = Tyrosinase Positive Albino = Xanthic = Xanthic Albino

2. Lavender = Lavender Albino

3. Albino = Regular Albino = T- = Tyrosinase Negative Albino = High Contrast Albino =? Granite Albino

I'm really only guessing that the Granite Albino is a regular albino that just happens to have the granite pattern - who knows, it might turn out to be a fourth type. I think VPI also has an unproven new line with “albino” in the name that looks sort of along the caramel line (but different looking) but I don't remember the name. There are probably others I forgot or didn’t know about.

Hopefully we will finally start getting some babies from crosses between the different groups this year to answer the question of if you will really get normal looking double hets as expected if they are separate genes or mutants if they are alleles (different mutations of the same gene). I believe I read that RDR has eggs from Caramel X Lavender incubating. In years past he has also tried Albino X Lavender but didn't get any eggs that hatched (too small of sample size to read much into that). I'm also very interested in hearing about any Albino X Caramel breedings but haven't heard of it even being tried yet.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

I'm really only guessing that the Granite Albino is a regular albino that just happens to have the granite pattern - who knows, it might turn out to be a fourth type.

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If you saw the animal in person there is no way you would think it had anything to do with a regular albino. From the pattern to the coloring to the scalation, there is something very different going on there.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

I think VPI also has an unproven new line with “albino” in the name that looks sort of along the caramel line (but different looking) but I don't remember the name.

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Red Albino.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

There are probably others I forgot or didn’t know about.

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A couple.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

I believe I read that RDR has eggs from Caramel X Lavender incubating.

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You "believe" ... LOL ... the way you quote Ralphies birthing records on the forums, everyone assumes that you have them all memorized :P

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

I'm also very interested in hearing about any Albino X Caramel breedings but haven't heard of it even being tried yet.

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Not likely to happen anytime soon.

-adam

Anybody got a picture of the Xanthic albino?

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Originally Posted by Schlyne

Anybody got a picture of the Xanthic albino?

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http://www.8ballpythons.com/uploads/...l-03310501.jpg

-adam

Oh dummy me, I read the previous post wrong. Thanks for the picture anyway :)

Okay someone put me outta my misery...is there a link to a sight with a pic of a Red Albino? (Google failed me! *sob sob*)

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Okay someone put me outta my misery...is there a link to a sight with a pic of a Red Albino? (Google failed me! *sob sob*)

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Is this what you had in mind(closest thing i could find lol)

http://www.proexotics.com/pics_june0...20Ball_jpg.jpg

Or these(once again closest thing i could find)
http://www.proexotics.com/pics_june0...0fakes_jpg.jpg

Hope i helped

Brian

check out vpi's web page.....there might be something there if you look hard..

www.vpi.com

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Originally Posted by normballpython2

http://www.proexotics.com/pics_june0...20Ball_jpg.jpg

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Nope, not it :P

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Originally Posted by normballpython2

http://www.proexotics.com/pics_june0...0fakes_jpg.jpg

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Those aren't even real :P

-adam

Adam,

Are you saying the scale size/shape etc. is different on the granite albino or just the distribution of color on the scales?

Please add to the conversation with the morphs/names that I missed.

After I posted I saw on another site where I think the VPI animal is also being called Burgundy Albino so apparently Burgundy Albino = Red Albino can be added but we don't really know if it fits in with any of the others, in fact it might be closer to things like Paragon that didn't even happen to get "albino" in their name than to caramel but who knows.

I'm pretty sure I read about the Lavender X Caramel somewhere on the RDR site but I couldn't find it quick when I went to look for it before quoting it in another thread but saw someone else mention it sense so felt confident my memory was accurate. I probably won't bother looking at his birthing record this year until things start hatching.

Why do you think the albino X caramel cross is so unlikely? You’re probably right if it hasn’t happened by now but I’m trying to understand why. What are caramel hets running in comparison to albinos now days? Even if you don't think the theory that they could be alleles is worth the risk the cost isn't that great as albino gets cheaper. Of course caramels may be coming down faster so maybe the hets will stay well under albino price, especially for the males. Would a normal looking double het albino and caramel be worth less than a het caramel only? I guess if you think the combo would be dominated by albino some might say that but I would think they would be worth at least whatever normal caramel hets are worth and of course I think there is a real chance that the double hets wouldn’t be normal looking at all.

Sure a breeding year for a big albino female would be a big investment but you don't always have to go for the obvious albinos - for example you might still come out ahead this year treating an albino female like an extra normal and breeding to a spider. Even without the albino het premium a half clutch of spiders might be worth more than a full clutch of albinos. Especially if you where interested in eventually producing albino spiders.

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

check out vpi's web page.....there might be something there if you look hard..

www.vpi.com

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Yes - go to vpi.com

Scroll down about 1/3 of the way down the page & look for "Breeder's Bragging Post." Click on that to enter the bragging post.

Click on "Archive of 2005"

When that comes up, click on "March 2005."

The Burgundy Albino is the 23rd entry down the page.

K~

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

Why do you think the albino X caramel cross is so unlikely?

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Because an adult albino female or adult caramel female would have way more value being bred to a spider, cinny, or genetic stripe male than to either a caramel or albino male respectively. Most people (actually, I've yet to find a single one) don't agree with you about the "allele thing" and think in reality that the amel will just end up washing out the caramel if you were to breed the double hets together. So why bother when there are other new morphs to be made that actually have market value.

I know you think it would be neat to see what happens, but a lot of people with these morphs are trying to run businesses and put food on the table and most don't have extra adult female morphs to play around with.

Maybe one day when adult female albinos and caramels are plentiful someone might take a stab at it, but by the time that day gets here you'll probably have beaten them to it with your possible hets ;)

-adam

I suppose even if albinos are getting pretty common, caramels still aren't and lots of people with a caramel male might also have a one of the more valuable ones you mentioned. Still getting to be enough caramels out there that maybe someone will have an albino female with nothing better to breed her to but by then even if they do prove to be alleles it will be too late to really make much of a financial difference.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

maybe someone will have an albino female with nothing better to breed her to

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LMAO!! .... good one!

-adam

Thanks so much Kara, I was having a bugger of a time trying to find a Red Albino and didn't know they were also called Burgundy Albino's so hadn't searched under that. Very nice looking snake.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Nope, not it :P




Those aren't even real :P

-adam

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I knew that lol jk. I should have known. I use photoshop alot now and i still couldn't see they were fakes. Man i feel stupid lol