Need expert pied genetic advice

Breeder recently hatched a clutch. I am interested in one of the hatchlings. Parents of these hatchlings are pied x banana het pied. I know the offspring are het for pied. That's obvious. Here is my issue. He has one in particular that I want. It is fully patterned except for a tiny white tip on his tail. Breeder said that he is hesitant to say that this hatchling is extremely low white and considers it more of a marker than a very low white pied. My question is... If he only has a tiny white tipped tail... Is it pied or more likely just het?

Low white pied I would think. But let him sell it to you as a het. Does it look like a pied pattern wise?

Sort of. It's a banana and the pattern is "pied like" in spots but it's not real obvious to me comparing it to the pattern of the pied I already have. I only want another pied and liked the low white. Just didn't expect quite that low. Haha I just want to make sure that if I decide to buy him and breed him to my female, it's pied to pied genetically speaking and not just pied to het.

Can you post a couple of pictures? Maybe some of the experts can give you their opinions on visual cues.

Yes, thank you. As soon as I figure out how, I will post pictures. I am new to this forum. ;-)

What's the price? If it's fair, I say go for it. Also, with bananas it matters if they're male makers or female makers.

It really wouldn't matter honestly as the chances of said snake producing visual or het pieds is going to be the same assuming the other snake is the same being used in both cases of the snake in question. It really boils down price. If you're looking to just make visual pieds to sell, then go for hets as they will be cheaper than a visual pied.

Breeder is an acquaintance of sorts and he is giving me an excellent deal. $225.00 Het, $350.00 pied with first pick of clutch. Because he is being so generous, I don't want to cherry pick any of his high white bananas that he can sell for much more. I am trying to select the lowest white banana as a courtesy (he doesn't realize I am doing this) and still land the genetics I desire.

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Originally Posted by JNeedham

Yes, thank you. As soon as I figure out how, I will post pictures. I am new to this forum. ;-)

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Host your images on a site like Imgur or Photobucket, then use the Insert Image button in the advanced post tools with the direct image link. :)

I do want visual pied offspring and a beautiful pet. I kind of want my cake and eat it too. :-) I don't mean to say that I will "settle" for het but I really want a pied so I can breed visual pied to visual pied.

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Originally Posted by JNeedham

Breeder is an acquaintance of sorts and he is giving me an excellent deal. $225.00 Het, $350.00 pied with first pick of clutch. Because he is being so generous, I don't want to cherry pick any of his high white bananas that he can sell for much more. I am trying to select the lowest white banana as a courtesy (he doesn't realize I am doing this) and still land the genetics I desire.

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Are these prices for plain or banana pieds. Why not just pick a medium then?

I wish it were that simple. :-) Mediums are females. I need a male. The males he has: one high white, one het and then this one in question. The entire clutch is a combination of pieds and plain.

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

It really wouldn't matter honestly as the chances of said snake producing visual or het pieds is going to be the same assuming the other snake is the same being used in both cases of the snake in question.

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wait what? I must be missing something. I thought he had female pied already and wanted a male pied to breed with it? All the babies would be pieds. If it turned out to be a het male, then the babies would be pieds and hets.

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Originally Posted by AbsoluteApril

wait what? I must be missing something. I thought he had female pied already and wanted a male pied to breed with it? All the babies would be pieds. If it turned out to be a het male, then the babies would be pieds and hets.

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Oh guess I spaced out then lol. I must have missed the art of him having a female pied already. Yeah you are right. So yeah, i'd go for a visual pied that is not questionable at all. And from reading his recent post, I would go for the high white since that is the only one known for sure to be a visual pied and talk it out with him the reasoning behind it and offer him a little extra cash. If he doesn't want it, then maybe on the first clutch, call him up and ask if he needs a pied for breeding down the road and hook him up with a good deal.

So the "breeder" can't tell the difference between a low white pied and a het with a ringer???

It's all in the pattern and the belly, there is no mistaking there is a big difference when you look at ringer or a low white pied even with combos.

Sent from my SM-T320 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by JNeedham

I do want visual pied offspring and a beautiful pet. I kind of want my cake and eat it too. :-) I don't mean to say that I will "settle" for het but I really want a pied so I can breed visual pied to visual pied.

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All pied are "visual",unless showing them to a blind person. If you don't see a pied,it's not a pied. The terms are "Pied" or "het Pied". Don't know who started this filler word "visual cr&p",but it definitely shows how many people are "follow the leader" "Sheeple".;)

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Originally Posted by grcforce327

All pied are "visual",unless showing them to a blind person. If you don't see a pied,it's not a pied. The terms are "Pied" or "het Pied". Don't know who started this filler word "visual cr&p",but it definitely shows how many people are "follow the leader" "Sheeple".;)

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Really? The term "Pied" isn't the official term. It is a short hand started by someone that others picked up and followed. The fact that we in the hobby are lazy and don't keep everything accurate leads to all these terms. The simplest thing is to go with homozyguys Piebald and heterozyguys Piebald. That would be accurate and clear every time. Since the hobby decided to shorten phenotype (or observable visual expression) of homozyguys recessive genes to just the gene name, it has been confusing to people who are just learning about genetics. On top of that, Piebald has been shortened down to Pied. The hobby makes it even worse when it comes to incomplete dominate genes by calling the heterozyguys phenotype (visual expression) of a gene the gene (think how a heterozygus Mojave is called a Mojave) and the homozygus phenotype (visual expression) of the same gene the "Super" form (again, sticking with the Mojave gene, the homozyguys phenotype is called the Super Mojave rather than the homozygus Mojave). Again, if we labeled them by the genetic terms, it would always be heterozygus or homozygus of a gene, regardless of whether it is a dominate, recessive, or incomplete dominate gene. So technically, the gene is Piebald and the non-visual expression of the Piebald gene is the heterozygus Piebald, while the visual expression of the Piebald gene is the homozygus Piebald, which some one labeled Pied and we in the industry have followed that terminology.

All I know is that I am new to this and everybody describes them differently. My goal is to have piebald babies, not a mixture which is why I want a piebald male. My female is a high white piebald. I was just hoping someone on here may have had an encounter with something as low white (?) as him and could advise me. If he only has white on the tip of the tail... Is that piebald? Is he just het? I already know he is het because I have seen the piebald mother. I know I can arrange for a high white male but really wanted this one. I really appreciate everyone's input and I know we are all flying blind without pictures. I sort of expected a cut and dry answer which I don't think is available. ;-)

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Originally Posted by JNeedham

I sort of expected a cut and dry answer which I don't think is available. ;-)

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Without pictures, there isn't. Things you can look for, as I think Deborah said, is pattern and belly. There is a homozygous version of the piebald known as 'no white', but it is still visually identifiable based off of how whacked the pattern is and the belly.

(Article with examples of a 'no white' pied.)

And here's a little pied boy showing off his belly.

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...09096960_o.jpg

How much is "just the tip". Is his pattern all screwy like a pied?

SmoothScales is right, without pictures, we really can't give you a definitive answer. SmoothScales has also given you a great picture and link to another thread showing the distorted pattern and belly of a low and no white Pied that Deborah is talking about. There is even another thread in this section of the forum that gives you a very good example of a low white Pied (http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...r-Ringer-Help!) that the OP wondered if it was a ringer or a Pied. I have not produced any Coral Glow or Banana Pieds, but the ones that I have seen, both in person and pictures of, have the distorted pattern and the clear marking of the saddles as they come down to the belly. If you could post some pictures, it would be much easier to help you out.

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Originally Posted by JNeedham

I sort of expected a cut and dry answer which I don't think is available. ;-)

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Because you have not posted a picture yet. Post a picture and you will get an answer. (view from the top and FULL belly)

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...-Post-Pictures

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Originally Posted by grcforce327

All pied are "visual",unless showing them to a blind person. If you don't see a pied,it's not a pied. The terms are "Pied" or "het Pied". Don't know who started this filler word "visual cr&p",but it definitely shows how many people are "follow the leader" "Sheeple".;)

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Originally Posted by Slowcountry Balls

Really? The term "Pied" isn't the official term. It is a short hand started by someone that others picked up and followed. The fact that we in the hobby are lazy and don't keep everything accurate leads to all these terms. The simplest thing is to go with homozyguys Piebald and heterozyguys Piebald. That would be accurate and clear every time. Since the hobby decided to shorten phenotype (or observable visual expression) of homozyguys recessive genes to just the gene name, it has been confusing to people who are just learning about genetics. On top of that, Piebald has been shortened down to Pied. The hobby makes it even worse when it comes to incomplete dominate genes by calling the heterozyguys phenotype (visual expression) of a gene the gene (think how a heterozygus Mojave is called a Mojave) and the homozygus phenotype (visual expression) of the same gene the "Super" form (again, sticking with the Mojave gene, the homozyguys phenotype is called the Super Mojave rather than the homozygus Mojave). Again, if we labeled them by the genetic terms, it would always be heterozygus or homozygus of a gene, regardless of whether it is a dominate, recessive, or incomplete dominate gene. So technically, the gene is Piebald and the non-visual expression of the Piebald gene is the heterozygus Piebald, while the visual expression of the Piebald gene is the homozygus Piebald, which some one labeled Pied and we in the industry have followed that terminology.

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lol checkmate!

:clap:

very well put Slowcountry Balls.

As others have said, white isn't the only trait of pieds.

I guess many people don't know or don't realize that pied is also a pattern gene. Even a 0% white pied will still look like a pied. No mistaking it from a normal (or het) pied.