Aggressive thrashing when paired

Hey, I was just wondering if anyone's ball pythons started thrashing really violently when paired? I put my black widow male (2014) to my normal female (2005) together and within like... 3 minutes, I hear thrashing coming from the tub. Is this normal? Should I be worried? Both the male and the female are thrashing. I tried her with a different male before a few week ago, (Spider Male, 2014) but only she was thrashing. The male is roughly 900grams and the female is around 1300grams at 10 years old, she also been aggressively eating as well.

Thank you for any input!

ReCheck the se of the "female"

Did that, no hemipenes XD

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

ReCheck the se of the "female"

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I will second that motion

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Originally Posted by Seven-Thirty

Did that, no hemipenes XD

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How efficient are you at popping adults?

I have had that type of reaction before however it is rare but it can happen. I would still recommend that you get your snake sexed by a third party to confirm.

I've sexed all 8 of my snakes and the ones who have been sold to me as males had hemipenes and the ones who were sold as females had no hemipenes. I bought her around 2005 from Port Credit Pets back in the day when they still had a retail location. They are respectable breeders in my area and still do reptile shows. There are no hemipenes when I pop her myself but yeah I could be wrong.

In terms of behaviour, they seem like they're fighting to be on top of each other. The female also excreted some white stuff that seems to be around the tub while she's thrashing but I think it's just urate.

The reason we are all saying recheck, is because what you are describing sounds exactly like male combat. Either way they should be separated, one of them is going to get hurt or worse. if you are absolutely sure on it not being a male, i would try introducing them later on with much caution.

http://i.imgur.com/OuRVtA4.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/RHIqX8f.jpg

I separated them at the behest of OWaL. I took her out and popped her and this is what is looks like. This is my third time popping her and in my opinion her cloaca area thing is way redder than the rest of my females. Is this cause for concern? I thought it was just because she was older than the rest of them. Any tips on my popping technique is appreciated as well. I want to correct any problems I have/may have with anything.

Thanks

Your pop doesn't look right.
It is easier to roll your thumb on the tail.
I have never been able to explain it but I can show people how to do it in person LoL

I figured my technique was off. She's the only one of my snakes I can't seem to pop correctly. Hows this?

http://i.imgur.com/LgKRHja.jpg

There is a video on youtube of some breeder and he says it is perfectly nornal for a male to thrash around!

From experience, it sounds like two males. Before I could tell on my own, I relied on the wrong person... sure enough, the "female" turned out to be a male.

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Originally Posted by highqualityballz

There is a video on youtube of some breeder and he says it is perfectly nornal for a male to thrash around!

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If it was just the male, I wouldn't be too worried but both snakes are thrashing pretty hard and fighting to be on top of each other.

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Originally Posted by Seven-Thirty

I've sexed all 8 of my snakes and the ones who have been sold to me as males had hemipenes and the ones who were sold as females had no hemipenes.

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You don't always find what you're not looking for. Are you actually seeing scent glands? I only ask because we recently we had a sexing issue with a female we were told was a male. While you aren't expecting hemipenes, we were and were putting quite a bit of pressure on her which caused just enough redness to further confuse. But, scent glands were clearly visible in photos we took and pointed out by a forum member, clearing up the sexing issue.


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Originally Posted by Seven-Thirty

I figured my technique was off. She's the only one of my snakes I can't seem to pop correctly. Hows this?

http://i.imgur.com/LgKRHja.jpg

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My guess you are not able to pop your snake properly which is not unusual as adults have a lot more control and are harder to pop if you have limited experience popping larger animals. Get the animal sex by someone who can pop an adult or sex it with a probe, someone with experience not someone that think they can do it after watchino a video once.

i've experienced that

i bought this "female" lesser from breeder few month ago, i was trying to pair her with my normal male
my mistake that i was not check again what really her sex is
and what i saw is agressive behaviour between them toward each other

soo, i separated them
re-sexed that lesser, and turned out to be male
for adult i prefer probe than pop, poping get harder to done when they get bigger and stronger

well, now i paired him with my proven female, and everything seems okay

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Originally Posted by Seven-Thirty

If it was just the male, I wouldn't be too worried but both snakes are thrashing pretty hard and fighting to be on top of each other.

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I really think your popping technique is off by just a bit. Your thumb of your left hand is a little to high over or on top of the vent scale and you need to depress that particular scale down and in. Then roll the thumb of your opposing hand up the tail of the animal. The way you are doing it is forcing the anus of the reptile out and into view. Your landmarks on the animal are off by a little. :)

Alright, i'm taking her into to get her sexed by someone with more experience. I'm still pretty convinced she's a female but just to make sure. I'll let you guys know the results tonight. Thanks for all the replies.

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Originally Posted by Seven-Thirty

Alright, i'm taking her into to get her sexed by someone with more experience. I'm still pretty convinced she's a female but just to make sure. I'll let you guys know the results tonight. Thanks for all the replies.

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That's cool too. You just have to adjust your hand positioning a little. It's always good to get a second opinion. Nice job.

Looking forward to hearing the ending of this saga!

To play the devil's advocate, what happens if it turns out that the snake was sexed correctly, and it is a M/F pairing? Do M/F snakes fight like M/M would for any reason?

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Originally Posted by Aercadia

Looking forward to hearing the ending of this saga!

To play the devil's advocate, what happens if it turns out that the snake was sexed correctly, and it is a M/F pairing? Do M/F snakes fight like M/M would for any reason?

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Hey Aer, me too! If it turns out that the reptile is female then i personally will be surprised but i will stand corrected. Its not the norm for m/f to have a battle like what Seven - Thirty described. It certainly sounds more like a m/m dominance competition. Stranger things have happened and i certainly can be wrong. Usually m/f can reject one another but it typically is that stimulation and breeding behavior just doesn't take place but rarely is there a battle. :cool:

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Originally Posted by Aercadia

Looking forward to hearing the ending of this saga!

To play the devil's advocate, what happens if it turns out that the snake was sexed correctly, and it is a M/F pairing? Do M/F snakes fight like M/M would for any reason?

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Sometimes they do I have a female that did exactly this during her first season, in 10 years she is the only one I have ever seen trashing around and fighting like males do during male fights. She is a female (proven multiple times) but at the time I questioned myself and immediately re-sexed her (she was 1800 grams at the time). She only did it with one male and was fine with the others. She is now 3500 grams and while she has not done this since it is always in the back of my mind and I play close attention during the first 5 minutes after introduction.

So I did a little testing because the vet isn't free until later on tonight and I put a known female calico spotnose in with the supposed female and the calico spot immediately started tail wagging and scenting but the supposed female isn't showing any interest what so ever but isn't thrashing either.

Note i've only had them together for about 40 minutes but it was a huge difference from what she (supposed female) was doing last night.

Stonger evidence that she might be male I suppose?

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Originally Posted by Seven-Thirty

Stonger evidence that she might be male I suppose?

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Sounds like it to me. I still can't pop adults properly and always second guess myself so I usually rely on probing besides buying from people I trust.

I was able to pop some of our younger boys, but struggle with the bigger boys and don't feel confident identifying the girls - my husband was never able to pop them successfully (but knows what he's looking at when there's a female)... we ended up getting a set of probes, and don't rely on popping. :) He usually does the probing, but recently taught me and had me give it a go, so I was able to verify the sex on my most recent acquisition (and had him re-verify). Tools are friends!

Welp, turns out she's a he. Kinda salty at that revelation but what are you going to do v.v

thanks for all the support guys, I really appreciate it.

Sorry to hear that.
I had it happen with a beautiful pastel.
Many people here told me I was cray for selling him after a couple clutches.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h1...ps9141b6be.jpg

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Originally Posted by Seven-Thirty

Welp, turns out she's a he. Kinda salty at that revelation but what are you going to do v.v

thanks for all the support guys, I really appreciate it.

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Really sucks when that happens but at least none of your snakes got hurt before you caught it

Yeah :c Now i just need to figure out what I can do with him xD this shakes up my plans a bit.

what do you guys do with your normal males?

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Originally Posted by Seven-Thirty

Yeah :c Now i just need to figure out what I can do with him xD this shakes up my plans a bit.

what do you guys do with your normal males?

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Usually I wholesale them (that requires quantity) or they are free to good home.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Usually I wholesale them (that requires quantity) or they are free to good home.

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Thanks, that'll probably be a last resort of mine i think. I had for 10 years already might as well continue. He was my first pet in the first place so I donmt see myself getting rid of him xD

If you really want to keep him, then call him your "handle animal" so when your friends come over and want to play with your snakes, you can bring him out and he can chill with them and you don't have to worry about your breeding animals deciding not to breed because they were handled over-much recently.

Hey, normal males are good for proving out multi-gene or dinker females :) Just because she's a he doesn't make him any less good for breeding - maybe just pick a different partner. X)

I believe every snake keeper should have a normal in their collection. Either male or female out of respect for the species. Normals are what all these morphs evolved from. I have a normal female and she's not going anywhere.

Nothing wrong with having a normal.
There's a lot you can do with one.
Nice animal to show to people or to get kids interested in our hobby by introducing them to a nice calm snake. To teach people what can come from a normal by showing a morph next to a normal
Or as said proving out dinkers

So we put the black widow with a confirmed female overnight and the first day went by alright. We checked back the next day and the male was "gnawing" her back. Just sort of opening his mouth, putting it on her and removing it. It wasn't a defensive strike, they were both resting relatively still next to each other. Is this a sign of breeding? Should I be concerned? I'm separating them for now in case it was putting the female at risk.

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Originally Posted by Seven-Thirty

So we put the black widow with a confirmed female overnight and the first day went by alright. We checked back the next day and the male was "gnawing" her back. Just sort of opening his mouth, putting it on her and removing it. It wasn't a defensive strike, they were both resting relatively still next to each other. Is this a sign of breeding? Should I be concerned? I'm separating them for now in case it was putting the female at risk.

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Nine years of breeding ball pythons and I've never seen that.

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Originally Posted by Dave Green

Nine years of breeding ball pythons and I've never seen that.

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Dang. D:

The only reason I noticed it was because I have them in a clear tub and check on them every once in a while.

If I were to describe what the black widow male was doing, it looks like he was yawning except putting his mouth over the body of the female. It did not look like a feeding or aggressive type of bite in any case.

Could it be that the female is just simply rejecting the male and he's just fed up?