Bought a new ball python, he came with a contract agreement, need advice.

Hi all.

recently I have added another new snake to my collection.

he is a 7 year old super pastel orange ghost. He is big and friendly.

he is a rescue snake that was seized by the local humane society and was being held by a local pet shop.

I had an interview filled out the paper work then stuffed him in a pillow case and drove home.

today I got a phone call and was informed that I filled out the wrong form. No big deal.
so the new agreement says I cannot breed the snake or else my animal can be seized. I didn't get him to breed him but that being said he is a gorgeous well tempered snake and I would like to in a few years pair him up with my one female. (She's atleast 2 years from being mature enough.)

what at should I do? Should I honor this? I am very conflicted

Did you actually sign the form that says you won't? because it sounds like you signed the wrong form.

In my opinion, which is rather harsh, the agreement has already been finalized. They let you go home with the snake based on the original agreement. Personally, I don't think you have to honor the one they didn't originally ask you to sign.

I REALLY dislike those humane society type contracts. I've passed on nice dogs and one cat because of them; in my experience, there is a lot more BS in those than just the breeding part, so, if you agree to sign another, be prepared for the possibility (probability) of other restrictions as well. They usually want you to surrender the animal back to them rather than re-home it based on your own judgement, etc. I saw one contract, you couldn't even move out of state with the animal!

Control freaks.

No I never signed the agreement. They phoned me today notifying me I didn't sign the right form.
far as I am concerned I am far from the average snake keeper. I have my snakes in a proper environment. They all eat even the ones that wouldn't they all shed perfect.

i am not some guy who has them on display in a giant lit up aquarium who has his drinking buddies come over to see how bad ass he is because he has pet snake.

Ok, just to clarify:

They tell you after the fact, that you signed the "wrong" form.
Did THEY sign this form too?


Did you read the form, and, if so did it seem reasonable to you? (That is, you signed a form about adoption/purchase of an animal, the appropriate form to sign under the circumstances. You weren't signing a building lease.)

Was there any verbal agreement you gave to them about not breeding?

Here is my opinion from what I understand at this point:

They are being manipulative. Bait and switch - intentional, or not, on their part...doesn't matter.
Sounds like THEY signed the wrong contract. Though cookies for them.
You are fully within your rights to be firm about what YOU agreed to - there is NOTHING else to honor!

If they didn't look over the documents they gave you to sign at the time of adoption, that's on them - you're under no obligation to sign anything else now that you're already the owner of the animal. They have no legal foot to stand on - that doesn't mean they can't make life difficult if they want to, but if it went to court, their complaint would be thrown out because THEY neglected to give you the documents they wanted you to sign, and your signature is already on something else. I hope you have a copy of whatever you DID sign for your records!

Yeah basically what you said.

however I reviewed the contract and it was for the wrong species of animal. No verbal agreement at all.

Even with the species specified in the contract being wrong, I don't see it as a relevant issue.

There should be absolutely nothing to be conflicted about.

This is no different than if they called you up later and said that they had undercharged you, and you needed to go back and pay more. You don't call someone back after a sale demanding more money, and you don't call someone back after a sale demanding additional concessions to an agreement!

The only reason this is in any way messy is because they are deciding to make it socially akward (spell??). It is expected that you will extend the curtesy of returning their phone call (you don't have to), and in standing your ground, you may feel yourself to be in the uncomfortable position of being "difficult" with the "nice" volunteers who only want to help animals... (They are counting on this, by the way.)

Gaah!!!
Animal rights types are some of the most full of themselves, dingbatty, irrational people on the planet. Many of them work for places like the Humane Society. You have unfortunately got yourself entangled with them. (I am phrasing carefully, and could say a LOT more, but don't want to trip the language censor.) Just say NO, and allow no more discussion on the subject of your snake. Hopefully, they will leave it at that. As far as I can see, they have zero standing in this.

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Originally Posted by Greenling

Yeah basically what you said.

however I reviewed the contract and it was for the wrong species of animal. No verbal agreement at all.

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That's on them .... I would politely tell them to "go fly a kite" they dropped the "ball" so to speak. Technically if you signed the paper they provided you and you now have possession of the snake, and the paper work calls it a different species ..... I would think that it is almost as if it never happened because the paperwork is talking about whatever species they put on the paper and the snake in question in a ball python .... therefore .. possession is 9/10 of the law

Just block their number, move on with your life with a new friend

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Originally Posted by T_Sauer

That's on them .... I would politely tell them to "go fly a kite" they dropped the "ball" so to speak. Technically if you signed the paper they provided you and you now have possession of the snake, and the paper work calls it a different species ..... I would think that it is almost as if it never happened because the paperwork is talking about whatever species they put on the paper and the snake in question in a ball python .... therefore .. possession is 9/10 of the law

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Exactly. I was thinking about this too, and while I'm no lawyer, I wouldn't be surprised if a judge were to throw the whole thing out, saying there is actually No agreement. (In which case you wouldn't be held to anything.) This even assumes that they would bother with any legal proceedings on what, a $100, maybe $200 purchase? As unhinged as the staff may be, the organization's own lawyers would tell them it was a waste of time.

Bottom line is, they accepted your money, and handed you a snake.
Done deal.

IANA lawyer but after running a business I do have some insight into buy/sell transactions.

First, in any transaction involving a contract presented by the seller or service provider, that party is considered to be the "expert". Ambiguities or deficiencies in the contract will favor the buyer. It is not the buyer's fault that the seller didn't do their due diligence at the time of the transaction and get every bit of paper signed.

Second, at this point the deal is done, OP can tell the seller to pound sand, he doesn't have to sign anything.

Third, yes animal rescues usually have "No Breeding" contracts. With cats and dogs that's easy to enforce by spaying or neutering the animal. Reptiles, not so much, surgery is risky and expensive.

Fourth, any reptile rescue that adopts out a super pastel hypo male should expect that it will be bred eventually.

They would never know if you did breed him. I am pretty sure there is no DNA test the humane society offers on snake babies. either sign the form to shut them up then do as you please or ignore the call and block the number on your phone. Either way they cant do anything.

I also agree with what everyone has said about the agreement, they made the error and they can't control what you do with your property. Then, on an additional note, unless they have a DNA test on the snake you rescued and are going buy all of the offspring you produce over the next 10-15 years to test the babies DNA, then you have nothing to worry about :rolleyes:

I doubt they could even look at a hatchling and identify what morphs are at play, so they will never know which hatchlings are of his line

kudos on the snake BTW, a pic would be appreciated of the handsome man


-Kibbleswhites, you posted my thoughts even as I typed them

Tell them to forget about it. They dropped the ball on this one. What are they going to do if you don't sign it? Repo the snake? You paid for it already. What are they worried about? Stray ball pythons flooding the shelters? Were not talking about a cat or dog here.

I must admit I am quite surprised by the support from you all thank you. I will be posting pictures of all my snakes in a post soon enough

I must say this experience has really changed my opinion on my local humane society. They make the whole community sound like they are nothing more than a glorified puppy mill style operation when it comes to breeding these animals. Its a 12 month process that takes effort and care in order to properly raise them to be able to breed. It takes careful planning and resources to ensure the eggs will be in the proper environment to hatch. It takes proper techniques to raise the offspring so they will eat, gain weight, shed and be ready for homes. Dogs cats are far more self sufficient. Lets not forget that some times food can be an issue as well (I am raising my own ASF's as well.)

And if it was not for people who genuinely loved and cared for the animals you would have nothing but wild caught, hard to handle, ill tempered, possibly infested with god knows what snakes straight from Africa.

Speaking of pictures I need to invest in a decent camera.

good plan, if they wanna throw up a legal fuss you can probably brush it off seeing as possession of the animal will tilt the outcome in your favor. you should have nothing to worry about other than fussy activists contacting you if the society takes a medial route.

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Originally Posted by Rstrui

good plan, if they wanna throw up a legal fuss you can probably brush it off seeing as possession of the animal will tilt the outcome in your favor. you should have nothing to worry about other than fussy activists contacting you if the society takes a medial route.

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I like this thought lol ... in this instance you could make the activists eat their own soup if they tried to request anything medical wise because that kinda testing is greatly stressful to the animal LOL

I agree that you can probably do what you want later breeding-wise and no one will bother you.

But I think it's worth pointing out that the humane society's policy of asking people not to breed the animals they rescue isn't just because they are worried about the snake equivalent of puppy mills. It's because there are also many animals out there that get neglected or "sold downriver" multiple times and are in need of good homes; they don't want people adding to the numbers just because they think it's cute to have babies. That argument doesn't really have anything to do with how good of a breeder you are, or even how carefully you vet the homes that your babies go to; they can always argue that the good home your baby went to might have taken in some poor needy animal instead if they hadn't just acquired your baby.
I don't know about the "fungibility" of snakes and whether that last part is true or not, but a quick Craigslist search in my area always reveals any number of ball pythons people are selling or "rehoming"; most of them quite young, so clearly someone got an animal that could live decades, and then lost interest in less than a year or two. This forum alone is full of examples of people who got a pet snake without knowing some incredibly basic things about them - like the fact that they produce urates, for example, or that their eyes get cloudy when they shed... and at least the people who show up on the forum are trying to find out.
It always strikes me as sort of unsettling that you can buy an animal with such a long lifespan, so quickly and easily and for so cheap. But part of the reason the humane society doesn't want you to breed is to limit the overall oversupply, in hopes of reducing the number of animals that are treated as throwaway accessories, and then need rescuing.

The vagaries of the BP market means that babies coming from a super pastel orange ghost would likely be more valuable and desirable than average, and thus more likely to be cared for appropriately, doesn't really change that picture by very much.

I'm not at all saying you shouldn't breed the snake if you want to, and didn't actually promise not to. I just think the no-breeding policy is not entirely unreasonable. It's not overboard like my colleague/friend the militant PETA type, whom I finally blocked on FB so I could post about my snake without starting issues.

This is probably the most ridiculous thread I've seen on here on a long time.

OP, you're trying to see if you can get away with breeding the snake from the humane society even though it's clearly prohibited by them? Why did you get it in the first place then? Do you realize that the reason they have the rules they have is to protect the animal's interest?

Go buy a healthy snake and breed him or her. Don't try to get away with something on a technicality. Ridiculous... People are so obsessed with breeding that they forget to think about the health of the animal. I also can't believe that the people on this thread are supporting this behavior. You should know better...

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Originally Posted by Coluber42

I don't know about the "fungibility" of snakes and whether that last part is true or not, but a quick Craigslist search in my area always reveals any number of ball pythons people are selling or "rehoming"; most of them quite young, so clearly someone got an animal that could live decades, and then lost interest in less than a year or two.

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A lot of those are breeders selling off inexpensive single-gene critters locally since the cost of shipping is high. The rest seem to be big box pet store normals that are overpriced and come with a tank and heat lamp.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

A lot of those are breeders selling off inexpensive single-gene critters locally since the cost of shipping is high. The rest seem to be big box pet store normals that are overpriced and come with a tank and heat lamp.

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Some look like they're breeders selling off the cheaper ones... but more of them come with a tank and heat lamp and presumably came from a pet store of some sort. Not all are normals necessarily, although plenty are. I doubt the humane society cares about that distinction, though.

Incidentally, some of the ads that look like they are breeders selling off the cheap ones don't inspire a whole ton of confidence either. It is not at all hard to imagine someone picking up a snake from one of them, and then a used tank and lamp from another CL seller on the way home... and that only reinforces the oversupply argument.

I don't feel qualified to make value judgements about anyone's breeding operations, and I do appreciate that it's easy to get a captive-bred snake instead of a wild-caught imported one. I'm just saying that if the humane society's goal is to reduce the number of unwanted pets out there that suffer or have to be euthanized, asking people not to make more babies isn't an unreasonable request.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Misha

This is probably the most ridiculous thread I've seen on here on a long time.

OP, you're trying to see if you can get away with breeding the snake from the humane society even though it's clearly prohibited by them? Why did you get it in the first place then? Do you realize that the reason they have the rules they have is to protect the animal's interest?

Go buy a healthy snake and breed him or her. Don't try to get away with something on a technicality. Ridiculous... People are so obsessed with breeding that they forget to think about the health of the animal. I also can't believe that the people on this thread are supporting this behavior. You should know better...

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I agree and am rather surprised by all the people saying 'what they don't know...' or trying to get away on a technicality about the original form being the wrong one.
If the rescue/society has a no breeding clause for adoptions, then you abide by it and don't breed the animal OR you don't adopt from them.

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Originally Posted by AbsoluteApril

I agree and am rather surprised by all the people saying 'what they don't know...' or trying to get away on a technicality about the original form being the wrong one.
If the rescue/society has a no breeding clause for adoptions, then you abide by it and don't breed the animal OR you don't adopt from them.

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The OP was automatically supposed to know this? Is that policy posted clearly on the front door or something? He seems to have adopted a snake thinking he could breed it, and HS now wants to change the deal.

SMH

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Originally Posted by distaff

The OP was automatically supposed to know this? Is that policy posted clearly on the front door or something? He seems to have adopted a snake thinking he could breed it, and HS now wants to change the deal.

SMH

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Yes, he should. Ignorance is not an excuse. Just because you're not aware of something, doesn't mean it doesn't apply to you. Their policies are always posted on their site.

Additionally, most (if not all) humane societies have a clause that you're adopting the animal as a family pet ONLY. When I adopted my German Shepherd I went through exactly the same thing. I'm also sure that the OP didn't mention anything about breeding the animal to the place he got it from.

The HS isn't changing their policy on breeding because of the OP. It's always been there. The OP just didn't do his research and didn't ask the right questions.


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With all due respect, that humane society would have literally no way of knowing if you bred that snake or not. Breed it if you want. It's not like they have some sort of task force looking for contract breaches, compounded by the fact that you didn't sign anything.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Misha

Yes, he should. Ignorance is not an excuse. Just because you're not aware of something, doesn't mean it doesn't apply to you. Their policies are always posted on their site.

Additionally, most (if not all) humane societies have a clause that you're adopting the animal as a family pet ONLY. When I adopted my German Shepherd I went through exactly the same thing. I'm also sure that the OP didn't mention anything about breeding the animal to the place he got it from.

The HS isn't changing their policy on breeding because of the OP. It's always been there. The OP just didn't do his research and didn't ask the right questions.


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"Ignorance is not an excuse"
It is not anyone's civic duty to know the policies of HS! Op was at an actual facility, not on line. They have to TELL you; that is what the CONTRACT is for.

The cat rescue I used to volunteer for only adopted out sterilized animals. Spay/neuter wasn't even part of the conversation (nor contract) because it was already done. I can easily see the OP leaving with his snake, in good faith, and not thinking this would be an issue.

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Originally Posted by distaff

The OP was automatically supposed to know this? Is that policy posted clearly on the front door or something? He seems to have adopted a snake thinking he could breed it, and HS now wants to change the deal.

SMH

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And once he found out that is the policy and if he doesn't want to abide by it, return the animal. smh indeed

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Originally Posted by Mr. Misha

Yes, he should. Ignorance is not an excuse. Just because you're not aware of something, doesn't mean it doesn't apply to you. Their policies are always posted on their site.

Additionally, most (if not all) humane societies have a clause that you're adopting the animal as a family pet ONLY. When I adopted my German Shepherd I went through exactly the same thing. I'm also sure that the OP didn't mention anything about breeding the animal to the place he got it from.

The HS isn't changing their policy on breeding because of the OP. It's always been there. The OP just didn't do his research and didn't ask the right questions.


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Have you ever asked if you are allowed to breed the snake when you got one? If the HS never said anything and it wasn't in the paper he signed, I wouldn't call that ignorance. The HS my parents got their last dogs from gives discounts if you spay or neuter them, but never dictates you can't breed.

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Originally Posted by distaff

"Ignorance is not an excuse"
It is not anyone's civic duty to know the policies of HS! Op was at an actual facility, not on line. They have to TELL you; that is what the CONTRACT is for.

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It actually is. If you're buying animal or anything for that matter, you should know what rules or laws apply to whatever you're buying.

The contract does state that he can't breed the snake. He just got a wrong contract by mistake.



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OP didn't go to the humane society to get the snake though, it was at a B&M pet shop. Pet shops typically don't have "no breeding" contracts, it's "we're selling, you're buying, have a nice life" after you leave. If the snake were at animal control or in foster care at a 501c3 rescue where he put in an adoption application that would be different.

OP, whereabouts are you? I'm just asking because in my area there is a similar system in place. There is a local reptile rescue who took in animals that were surrendered to the humane society but the reptile society works with a certain pet store to help animals get adopted. Because the animals are from the rescue, they are adopted with a no breeding contract. Just out of curiosity, in the forms that you filled out, what animal was the contract for? If it's a completely different type of animal I wonder how valid this adoption is.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Misha

This is probably the most ridiculous thread I've seen on here on a long time.

OP, you're trying to see if you can get away with breeding the snake from the humane society even though it's clearly prohibited by them? Why did you get it in the first place then? Do you realize that the reason they have the rules they have is to protect the animal's interest?

Go buy a healthy snake and breed him or her. Don't try to get away with something on a technicality. Ridiculous... People are so obsessed with breeding that they forget to think about the health of the animal. I also can't believe that the people on this thread are supporting this behavior. You should know better...

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Ok let me restate what I originally said. I bought the snake from a local mom and pop shop. This shop works locally with the Humane Society and a Reptile rescue society. I had to sign an agreement stating how I would care for the animal. This agreement said nothing about stipulations about breeding. So I paid for the animal and took it home.

The next day I was informed that I signed the wrong document, this new document stipulated no breeding.

Sorry that is not ignorance, I read the contract and agreed to the one I was presented had I known the stipulation I probably would have reconsidered it.

That being said, after taking a weekend to think about it he I will be going back and signing the proper contract and he will not be bred. He will live his live out in my collection. He is a beautiful animal and quite tame.

WOW:eyepoppin .... this thread has takin a huge turn since the last I seen it ..... I see the activists members of this site finally decided to come out of the closet :rofl::rofl::rofl: .....

To the OP, due as you wish, the decision is ultimately yours and the ball is fully in your court .... I myself .... well I have a problem with people getting paid to do a job and then doing it incorrectly, and this pertains to ALL aspects and jobs ... just like home owners associations ... I ABSOLUTELY will never move to a place that is governed by a HOA ... I'll be damned if I will pay someone to tell me what I can and can't do with my own property or belongings that I bought and paid for!!! ..... you paid for this snake and it was not given to you correct?? ... You signed the paperwork that the "paid professionals" provided you with correct?? ...... Just some food for thought

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Originally Posted by T_Sauer

WOW:eyepoppin .... this thread has takin a huge turn since the last I seen it ..... I see the activists members of this site finally decided to come out of the closet :rofl::rofl::rofl: .....

To the OP, due as you wish, the decision is ultimately yours and the ball is fully in your court .... I myself .... well I have a problem with people getting paid to do a job and then doing it incorrectly, and this pertains to ALL aspects and jobs ... just like home owners associations ... I ABSOLUTELY will never move to a place that is governed by a HOA ... I'll be damned if I will pay someone to tell me what I can and can't do with my own property or belongings that I bought and paid for!!! ..... you paid for this snake and it was not given to you correct?? ... You signed the paperwork that the "paid professionals" provided you with correct?? ...... Just some food for thought

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Wow, I guess you never make mistakes. Someone made a mistake, and then they tried to fix it. You can discuss whether the OP has a legal or ethical obligation to play along, but giving someone an adoption form for the wrong rescued pet and then trying to straighten it out to conform with established policies isn't a calculated assault on private property rights. It's just a mistake.