*Room Temperature and Enclosure Temperature (What are the Limits for the Room?)

Hi all,

I am a total noob in need of help. I am a 6th grade math and science teacher and I will be welcoming a new snake (my first) into my class in 3 weeks. I have done a lot of research but am running into some questions which I must answer before I can confidently take on the responsibility of a ball python.

Here is my problem-

I currently do not know how cold my room gets at night when the the heating is shut off in the school. I will be having students keep a temperature log (I will as well) of the room temperature throughout the day. I will also record the temperature in the room early in the morning, and once or twice at night. We will do this for two weeks, but I am left with the questions:

What temperature range must the room outside of the enclosure stay such that it is possible to keep the needed temperature gradient inside of the enclosure?

This question was raised when I visited a reptile specialist pet store today (a very reputable one out here in temperate climate San Francisco) and a women said that it is not enough to ensure that I have a high wattage heat lamp connected to an accurate thermostat. She said that while it will be able to heat the entire tank (I am open to wood, plastic, glass or melamine) even in a cold room, it would heat up so quickly that the thermostat will quickly shut it off and it will not be possible to maintain the correct temperature.

I will be buying and adult that I know to be very tame and used to handling. As such this will be for an enclosure that can comfortably accommodate a full grown adult of 3-5 feet.

As I mentioned, I have done quite a bit of research and understand that I will need to do a lot of work to responsibly care for this animal. I am willing to step up. However, the first step of course is to make sure that I actually can in my circumstances.

Any thoughts will be greatly appreciated!

I should also add that I have received a grant of $120 and raised another $410 personally which I can invest in the snake and all the things it will need.

It is also worth mentioning that a parent offered to donate two tanks which may be able to accommodate an adult python. I have yet to see them but if they work this might free up more money for equipment which could possibly allow me to keep a ball python comfortable in the fluctuating temperatures of my classroom.

I would say it would have to stay constantly in the 75-80F range, but depends on how well your enclosure holds in heat and what you're using to provide the hot spot. My PVC cages can hold heat below 75F, but my big 3' tall wooden enclosure needs a room temp of at least 85F to maintain floor temps. I want to find someone to help me split it into 2 levels so the floor temps aren't so important and then maybe that will change.

Pulse-proportional thermostats will allow you a constant flow of heat, without it turning off unless it's simply too hot. These thermostats control the amount of electricity going to the heat source at any given time, instead of waiting for the temps to get to the set highs and turning back on at the set lows. Herpstats and Vivarium Electronics have models that have pulse-proportional settings, and will cost you $100-400 depending on model, but for only one heat source you should be able to keep it around or under $200. As far as non-reptile specific thermostats I'm not sure if you could get a reliable pulse-proportional for cheaper, maybe someone else can chime in on that.

Well it really depends on the cage material. Glass tanks are very bad insulators. My advice is to get a PVC cage like an Animal Plastics T8. They would be plenty for any size BP and will hold in heat well. I would then go for a radiant heat panel from Reptile Basics. Without knowing your state or how cold your area gets, I would say get an 80 watt one just incase. Then I would get a Herpstat 1 T-stat. Vivarium Electronics are good too but Herpstats have more options and offer both a pulse proportional mode as well as a dimming poroportional mode. All VEs are pulse proportional only except I think the VE200D which the D stands for dimming model. Anyways all that should be a little under the funds you got. Then you can use the left over cash to get a water bowl, hides etc. I also advise get Reptile Basic hides. The large size should be fine. I use 2 for my 4' pied girl and she fits in them perfect. With a set up like that, unless your school gets freezing, you should be fine. An 80 watt RHP will keep a T8 plenty heated. Also a tip for heating is go to any hardware store and buy the 1/2-1" 8x4 sheet insulation(called R-type) up here. Its used for wall insulation or attics, not the fiberglass blown in stuff. Anyways cut that to fit and put that between the cage and the table. That will reduce a lot of heat loss in the winter if your room is kept cool.

I will second the Animal Plastics T8 cage. They are of great quality, and you can't really find anything bad said about them. They maintain humidity levels very well and are fairly light if ever needed to be moved. Once assembled, they are 4' long, 2' deep, and 12" tall. If you are starting out with a young or hatchling ball python, you should definitely get the divider they offer on their site (or just tell Ali if you call to order). It will allow you to divide the tank in half (or even smaller). Younger snakes may get stressed out in a very large open area. Putting more hides, fake plants, etc in the tank can be a good thing.

RHP's (radiant heat panels) are an excellent source for good heat. Some folks now use them exclusively with no belly heat. In a T8 style cage, they can heat the entire closure and provide enough ground heat that you don't need any under the tank heat source. If you do plan to get a young snake, and use the divider, you'll be better to get two 40w heat panels, so you can still use the divider. Or if going that route, get one 40w panel now, and get the other later when the snake is big enough that you can remove the divider (maybe a year to two years old). Reptile Basics does offer some very nice hides. I use them myself. One thing though, again, if starting with a young snake, get the smaller hides, and work your way up. Ball Pythons like to feel their hides touching them. They like the security of feeling the enclosure against their body. The more cramped they look to use, the happier they are. Starting off with a large hide for a young bp may not give it the security it needs.

In regards to room temperature, if you're in San Fran, I'm guessing it's not going to get too cold at night. You can pick up some digital Accurite thermometers/hygrometer combos at Walmart for about $12. Get at least two, one for the warm side and one for the cool side of your tank. If you invest in those now, you can just set them in your classroom, and they will record the coldest and warmest temps. That will give you an idea for how cold the room gets at any given point.

Just out of curiosity, where are you located?

Dave

My BP lives in my home and I'm quite frugal with my heating - in the daytime it's heated to 62F and since I got my snake I've programmed the heating to never allow temps to drop below 52F at night and when I'm out of the house.

I have a wooden 3x2x2ft glass fronted enclosure with just a 75w radiant heat panel over the hot side. It needed pillows and a duvet/comforter wrapped around the sides and tops to maintain a 90F hot spot and 77-80F cold end in 53F room temperature (my pulse-proportional t/stat runs at 50-80%). I'd never open the enclosure or handle my snake until the room is heated up though...


With regards to your situation - I have a feeling a classroom might be a scary situation for a BP; you should count on keeping the enclosure covered with an opaque sheet most of the time and have it in an out-of-the-way area.

Also - a healthy BP will tend to sleep/hide all day, and from what I hear they are best fed at night. Are there any other less-nocturnal species that you are considering?

I guess I should add - my hot spot/hide is on a basking table which is about 1ft off the bottom of my enclosure on the hot end; I'm not sure I'd be able to get the floor of the enclosure to ~90F with just my RHP.

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Originally Posted by Pug50

My BP lives in my home and I'm quite frugal with my heating - in the daytime it's heated to 62F and since I got my snake I've programmed the heating to never allow temps to drop below 52F at night and when I'm out of the house.

I have a wooden 3x2x2ft glass fronted enclosure with just a 75w radiant heat panel over the hot side. It needed pillows and a duvet/comforter wrapped around the sides and tops to maintain a 90F hot spot and 77-80F cold end in 53F room temperature (my pulse-proportional t/stat runs at 50-80%). I'd never open the enclosure or handle my snake until the room is heated up though...


With regards to your situation - I have a feeling a classroom might be a scary situation for a BP; you should count on keeping the enclosure covered with an opaque sheet most of the time and have it in an out-of-the-way area.

Also - a healthy BP will tend to sleep/hide all day, and from what I hear they are best fed at night. Are there any other less-nocturnal species that you are considering?

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I wouldn't expect a classroom temperature being able to drop that low. They wouldn't be able to get it warm enough for the students in the morning if dropped that low. Most schools I've ever been in, some very old, are probably in the 63-65F area. Maybe a tad lower during winter months. Being that your cage is 2' high, the RHP has to work extra hard to heat the lower portion of that cage. In a pvc enclosure, 80w of RHP is more than plenty to keep the entire thing warm if the ambient temps are 65 degrees.

I don't know if I missed an answer to this question.
Where and what school are you in?
I ask this because it sounds like you may still have a little time AND IF the school has a wood shop you may be able to get them to build you an enclosure? That would make it even more interesting for other students.

With the night drops unknown I would go the way of a RHP. You can get with the guys at Reptile Basics but you would need to know what you are going to use for an enclosure.
I am one to always recommend a rack BUT knowing that children don't always close things the way they should I wouldn't chance it LoL

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the replies guys!

My classroom is in Foster City California (25 miles south of SF).

The lowest minimum temperature is 30 degrees F and the highest is 108 degrees but the average temperatures throughout the year range from 52 degrees F and 70 degrees F.

Unfortunately we no longer have a shop class at my school so the enclosure will have to be bought or donated.

I am also considering a corn snake which does have the benefit of being diurnal and more active. The reason I am more interested in ball pythons, despited them being more difficult to take care of, is that after handling several I think they will be much more confidence inspiring for a student to try holding or touching because they move much more slowly and deliberately.

As for enclosures I was also considering the animal plastics T8 or the Vision Model #400 48" wide - 26 " deep - 14 " high $349.00 ea. or the Vision Model #322 36" wide - 23" deep - 21" high $349.00 ea. However, I'm still not sure what my budget will be with a solid thermostat that can accommodate the temp range of my room, RHP, possibly an under tank heater, substrate, hides, water bowl, etc and of course a $50-$100 snake.

I should also mention that some more donations have come in and i know have a budget of $600.

If you get a ball python, here is what I would suggest...

Animal plastics
-T8 - $150
-LED lighting - $30
-Lock - $20
-Divider - $20

Reptile Basics
- x2 - 40w RHP's (or one 80w if you are starting with a large snake and don't need the divider in the cage) - $140
- x2 - hides, one for warm side, one for cool side... approx. $10
- medium crock type water bowl - $4

Spyder Robotics
-Herpstat thermostat $100

Uline.com
-1 roll of Kraft indented paper for substrate in the enclosure. A roll will last you a year or more. About $50 (shipping included)

That takes you to about $525 or so... probably $550 with shipping. If you have any ball python breeders near you, ask them if they have any snakes they may be willing to donate for your class. You may get lucky. Maybe they will let you house one in your classroom and then should you decide to part with it, or come summertime, you can give it back to the breeder (instead of having to sell it on Craigslist or something). Maybe that isn't an option, but I'd ask. If there are reptile expos near you, you can almost always find a normal ball python for $20 or so. If you have more money, you can invest in a more expensive "morph" with different colors or patterns.

For what it's worth, I'm another frugal home-heater. Our thermostat is set to go down to 52 during the day when no one's home, and 56 overnight when we're home but asleep under about eight blankets. The room where my snake lives can get down close to 52 if it's particularly cold outside.

I have a 20-gallon tank with foam wrapped around three sides plus the bottom, and an 80-watt RHP. I modified the screen top to hold the RHP and covered over most of the remaining screen area. One 80-watt panel is cheaper than two 40-watt ones; and if you end up not needing all that wattage, it will just run at a lower power (or just not all the time) and it will be fine.
I had the RHP on a cheaper thermostat for awhile, but it made for really wide temperature swings; and in such a cold room, the temperature was swinging up and down pretty fast, too. I suspect that with the thermal mass of the hides, the temperature inside the hides didn't swing quite as much, but the herpstat is much, much better.

One other suggestion is that you make a piece of foam to go across the bottom front of the enclosure, maybe only ~4" high. That will do two things: One, it will make the enclosure seem a little more closed in at the snake's eye level and shut out a little bit of classroom commotion, while still letting you easily see in; and two, it will insulate the lower front edge so you don't get condensation there when the room temperature drops.

First off avoid Vision cages. I was also looking into them since I was going to get the V600 for my boas but after talking to people and reading up on them, I found out they sag a ton in the middle and if you try and stack them, the bottom cages' door binds. Also I was told that the glass doors are easy to pop out so not very secure. I have heard only good things about AP.

Also I don't see a point to a divider as I would never keep anything other than a male hognose snake in a 2x2x1. So you would save a lot by skipping the divider and the 2x 40 watt RHPs.

For the T-stat, if you go with a Herpstat, get at least the Herpstat 1. That one I believe is around $130 but it has all the bells and whistles of the Herpstat 2 and 4, just its only made for 1 set up. Its also in a nice stand alone case that can just be put on top of the cage. The Herpstat basic is nice but as the T-stat is the most important item, pay the extra $15 and get the Herpstat 1 which has the safety relay as well as a couple other bonuses.

As for your temps, I would definitely get the 80 watt RBI RHP. Since its getting to be spring, you should be fine but from the temps you have said you have, you probably will need heat tape in the winter so it might be a good idea to get a Herpstat 2. Those run about $195 but can monitor 2 heat sources.

As for heat tape like I mentioned, you should be fine without until next winter if you need it at all. Hides, go online to Reptile Basics. They got the best hides imo and they are pretty cheap. Like I mentioned I use the large ones for 4' 1000g+ girl and she loves them. Water bowl, you can just go to any local pet shop and pick one up. my advice though is to get a wide base one or just a large one. I use the extra large Zoo Med rock looking ones which are bigger on the bottom and small on top and my girl still tries to burrow under it sometimes and arch her back up and tries to tip it. She is a terror though and destroys anything not tied or cemented down lol.

So a cage, T-stat, RHP, 2x hides, water bowl and substrate should run about $500. $200 for the cage with shipping, $150 for the Herpstat 1, $20 for both hides, $10 for a water bowl, and anywhere from $10-$20 for substrate depending what you go for.

I need to thank you for asking before getting the animal. Had a biology teacher in my schooldays buy a syrian hamster and acually kill it because she new nothing and belived the pet store. Poor thing nested in a tiny plastic-tunnel that fogged up from all the huminity from his breathing, got pneumonia and died.

Well for housing a snake the others gave very good tips. For the Snake itself I would not recomend a young snake but an adult that is known to love handling and action. I have an adult Corn that is my show and tell, he is so laid back you can do everything with him, and if its action in the room he'll gladly come to the front to take a look. (Also he keeps still while handling)
Also good would be an african house snake female they will gladly take everything you offer to feed her and they really grap on tight while handling.

I got other Corns that are really shy or even agressiv, not every animal has the same temperament so get one where the previous owner/breeder can give you info on that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

Also I don't see a point to a divider as I would never keep anything other than a male hognose snake in a 2x2x1. So you would save a lot by skipping the divider and the 2x 40 watt RHPs.

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This would just depend on the snake that the OP purchases. If he gets a hatchling ball python, a 4'x2' enclosure is way too big. With the divider, you can place it anywhere inside the cage, allowing you to create a small enclosure and move it as the snake grows. There are plenty of people that keep two adults in one T8 with a divider. I recommended the divider if he goes with a young snake. The smaller the house for the snake, the more comfortable and less stressed it will feel.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LittleTreeGuy

This would just depend on the snake that the OP purchases. If he gets a hatchling ball python, a 4'x2' enclosure is way too big. With the divider, you can place it anywhere inside the cage, allowing you to create a small enclosure and move it as the snake grows. There are plenty of people that keep two adults in one T8 with a divider. I recommended the divider if he goes with a young snake. The smaller the house for the snake, the more comfortable and less stressed it will feel.

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original post says buying an adult they know is tame and handleable

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

First off avoid Vision cages. I was also looking into them since I was going to get the V600 for my boas but after talking to people and reading up on them, I found out they sag a ton in the middle and if you try and stack them, the bottom cages' door binds. Also I was told that the glass doors are easy to pop out so not very secure. I have heard only good things about AP.

Also I don't see a point to a divider as I would never keep anything other than a male hognose snake in a 2x2x1. So you would save a lot by skipping the divider and the 2x 40 watt RHPs.

For the T-stat, if you go with a Herpstat, get at least the Herpstat 1. That one I believe is around $130 but it has all the bells and whistles of the Herpstat 2 and 4, just its only made for 1 set up. Its also in a nice stand alone case that can just be put on top of the cage. The Herpstat basic is nice but as the T-stat is the most important item, pay the extra $15 and get the Herpstat 1 which has the safety relay as well as a couple other bonuses.

As for your temps, I would definitely get the 80 watt RBI RHP. Since its getting to be spring, you should be fine but from the temps you have said you have, you probably will need heat tape in the winter so it might be a good idea to get a Herpstat 2. Those run about $195 but can monitor 2 heat sources.

As for heat tape like I mentioned, you should be fine without until next winter if you need it at all. Hides, go online to Reptile Basics. They got the best hides imo and they are pretty cheap. Like I mentioned I use the large ones for 4' 1000g+ girl and she loves them. Water bowl, you can just go to any local pet shop and pick one up. my advice though is to get a wide base one or just a large one. I use the extra large Zoo Med rock looking ones which are bigger on the bottom and small on top and my girl still tries to burrow under it sometimes and arch her back up and tries to tip it. She is a terror though and destroys anything not tied or cemented down lol.

So a cage, T-stat, RHP, 2x hides, water bowl and substrate should run about $500. $200 for the cage with shipping, $150 for the Herpstat 1, $20 for both hides, $10 for a water bowl, and anywhere from $10-$20 for substrate depending what you go for.

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This x2. I can personally recommend the AP T8 cages, as I had a couple when I was starting out and they were fantastic. Since then, my collection has grown exponentially and I have all of my animals in rack systems (a few by AP - they make a great product). Also, like everyone else has already said, definitely spring for the Herpstat. They are the only thermostats in use here for the snakes themselves (the room heater is on an on/off style Ranco).

There have been such great replies here that that's about all I've got to add (unless you've got additional questions based on these replies). What a great team we've got here! :gj:

Best regards,
Eric

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LittleTreeGuy

This would just depend on the snake that the OP purchases. If he gets a hatchling ball python, a 4'x2' enclosure is way too big. With the divider, you can place it anywhere inside the cage, allowing you to create a small enclosure and move it as the snake grows. There are plenty of people that keep two adults in one T8 with a divider. I recommended the divider if he goes with a young snake. The smaller the house for the snake, the more comfortable and less stressed it will feel.

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True with some snakes I guess TreeGuy but I have found that if you give a baby snake enough hides and clutter up the cage enough, that even a big cage will work. The problem I have found is that most people who are new to snakes don't realize that you need to clutter up even the paths to the hides cause being out in that open space is scary for a baby. So you throw in a bunch of plastic bowls or plastic flower pot saucers down and then throw in a bunch of those silk vines you can get from craft stores like Michaels and even a few paper towel rolls and cover the sides and back of the cage and it should work out. My Bp girl started out in a 40g breeder as a 90g worm and she did fine doing the stuff I said above. She would cruise around to different hides and stuff. They key isn't the amount of room but how well you make the snake feel "secure". But I do agree, 2 little ones can live in a split T8 but I wouldn't want to put a full grown male even in one. 2x2 is just too small imo for a 4' snake.

Wow, thank you everyone! As Eric said what a great team. It's awesome to know that as I enter the world of keeping snakes there is such a friendly and helpful community. I'm learning a ton and starting to feel like I have a lot more direction. I will be sure to PM all of you a thank you at the end of the thread (which will include pictures of what I end up with). (Also I noticed that a lot of users have "thanked x times in y threads." Is there a button for that or does the site take care of it automatically?)

Just a quick disclaimer before I jump in-
In what follows I will just shoot out any questions that I currently have. This is only the second forum I've ever joined so I'm still getting used to the medium. Constructive feedback on the nature of my posts (i.e. too long(?)) is welcome. Also, if there is a salient thread that I have not yet found it is not for a lack of trying and would appreciate being referred to it. I'm doing as much research as I can in my free time, much of it on this site, but it is a lot to navigate in the time I have available.

Update on Circumstances, my Plans/Questions by Topic:

Circumstances:
As of day 1 the ambient room temperature was at a steady 72 degrees Fahrenheit.

Man, my students and I are fortunate that the school is in a well of area. Families have continued to donate to my GoFundMe and I know have a budget of $645.00 (I do also have over 70 students though). Of course this does not mean I need to spend it all. I do want to show that I am being honest with their donations however so any remainder will be used on a gift card to a pet store for food. In so doing I will be able to produce receipts for all funds.

Plans/Questions by Topic:

Enclosure-
If I buy an enclosure I will go with the T8 including door locks and lighting. Depending on the size of the snake I may buy the divider but will definitely go for an adult that I feel confident was regularly handled and has a great disposition. If I don't buy an enclosure it is because one or both of the tanks that a parent offered to donate will work in my circumstances. I will likely have to follow up with some questions when I learn more about them. I will also be sure to get and opaque covering for the tank to provide it an escape from all the happenings in my classroom. I may also do the
Questions-
1) Any thoughts on sliding vs. hinged doors? I've heard/read people both.
2) Any thoughts on florescent vs. LED lighting? I've heard/read people both.

Temperature and Humidity-
For the t-Stat I will invest in a Herpstat that can manage at least 2 devices. I'll pick up an 80 watt RBI RHP and heat tape (just to be safe). I'll also pick up a hygrometer, and two digital thermometers.
Questions-
1) The equipment listed above will indeed address the issue the woman spoke of and the initial experience that Coluber42 had correct? I just want to be as certain as possible before taking on this responsibility.*Quotes of each at the bottom of this post.
2) Once all of this equipment is dialed in to produce the right conditions, what is a safe amount of time to leave the snake alone? (I suppose answers may be contingent on what I continue to learn about the ambient temperatures of my room though.)
3) How difficult is it dial the equipment (particularly the Herpstat), and once I do is it more or less set forever if I use the pulse and not the dimming mode, or will it need regular adjustments as the seasons change? (Students and I will however keep a detailed temperature and humidity log of the snakes enclosure-all part of the great experience this snake will make to my classroom).
4) If I do end up with a AP T8, what should I expect to do to maintain humidity levels? At the Vivarium I went to they spray twice a day but they are in wooden enclosures.
5) Is providing a humid hide with moist sphagnum moss sufficient for a ball python over weekends? In general?

Snake-
I am still leaning heavily towards a normal (or inexpensive morph) of a ball python based on my limited experience handling them and corn snakes. I also prefer their appearance. However, I do appreciate that corn snakes are more easier feeders, more active during the day (which could be nice for students when simply watching it) and generally hardier. As such I am still open to a corn snake but would really want to find an extremely chill one when it comes to handling like the snake that SamSimon described.
Question-
1) I would just like to hear your thoughts on this matter though I appreciate you may be just a little biased ;)



*Relating to Question 1 from the "Enclosure-" section.
In my OP I mentioned that a seemingly knowledgeable clerk at a specialized Vivarium store said something to the following effect about high wattage heat lamps: "while it will be able to heat the entire tank (I am open to wood, plastic, glass or melamine) even in a cold room, it would heat up so quickly that the thermostat will quickly shut it off and it will not be possible to maintain the correct temperature." This sounds similar to what Coluber42 said "I have a 20-gallon tank with foam wrapped around three sides plus the bottom, and an 80-watt RHP. I modified the screen top to hold the RHP and covered over most of the remaining screen area. One 80-watt panel is cheaper than two 40-watt ones; and if you end up not needing all that wattage, it will just run at a lower power (or just not all the time) and it will be fine.
I had the RHP on a cheaper thermostat for awhile, but it made for really wide temperature swings; and in such a cold room, the temperature was swinging up and down pretty fast, too."

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Originally Posted by HellsAekel

(Also I noticed that a lot of users have "thanked x times in y threads." Is there a button for that or does the site take care of it automatically?)

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At the bottom left of each post there is a button with a thumbs-up with the word "Thanks" next to it. It's basically a "like button" where you can show your appreciation for what's been posted. :gj:

FWIW, long detailed posts are *way* better at getting useful answers to your questions than short, uninformative ones. :)
I'm sure others will weigh in, but here are my two cents:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HellsAekel

1) Any thoughts on sliding vs. hinged doors? I've heard/read people both.

In a classroom setting, I would think the most important concern is getting whichever will be least likely to be left open. Same goes for whatever locks or latches are required to keep the snake from pushing it open, that could get forgotten. Get whatever you think looks foolproof and forget-proof for your kids.

2) Any thoughts on florescent vs. LED lighting? I've heard/read people both.

The snake doesn't actually need the lights - they'd just be for you to see better. LED's are more efficient, smaller, can't really break, etc. They're not really a necessity anyway though.

Temperature and Humidity-
For the t-Stat I will invest in a Herpstat that can manage at least 2 devices. I'll pick up an 80 watt RBI RHP and heat tape (just to be safe). I'll also pick up a hygrometer, and two digital thermometers.
Questions-
1) The equipment listed above will indeed address the issue the woman spoke of and the initial experience that Coluber42 had correct? I just want to be as certain as possible before taking on this responsibility.*Quotes of each at the bottom of this post.

You can use a cheap digital thermometer of the type that shows the temperature inside and outside your house, either with a wired probe or with a separate piece that transmits to the main unit. They cost under $20 and have hygrometers too.

2) Once all of this equipment is dialed in to produce the right conditions, what is a safe amount of time to leave the snake alone? (I suppose answers may be contingent on what I continue to learn about the ambient temperatures of my room though.)

It's hard to imagine that your room will get too cold for the above listed equipment to maintain the temperature, unless they drain the plumbing and turn the heat off completely over spring break or something... are freezing pipes even an issue in SF? Humidity might be harder to maintain if you're gone for a week, but that would depend on your external humidity.

3) How difficult is it dial the equipment (particularly the Herpstat), and once I do is it more or less set forever if I use the pulse and not the dimming mode, or will it need regular adjustments as the seasons change? (Students and I will however keep a detailed temperature and humidity log of the snakes enclosure-all part of the great experience this snake will make to my classroom).

Most likely, once it's set up, the thermostat will take care of it. That's what it's for. Keep an eye on it just to make sure nothing funny is going on, but you shouldn't need to adjust anything once it's set up.

4) If I do end up with a AP T8, what should I expect to do to maintain humidity levels? At the Vivarium I went to they spray twice a day but they are in wooden enclosures.
5) Is providing a humid hide with moist sphagnum moss sufficient for a ball python over weekends? In general?

That will depend on the ambient humidity in your classroom, and on the temperature differential between the cage and the room (since cooler air doesn't hold as much moisture). You might not have to do much at all, or you might have to put some moist moss in there, or mist periodically. The humidity will be more stable when the doors stay closed (duhh), so putting in some sphagnum moss will probably be totally fine over the weekends, even long ones.

Snake-
I am still leaning heavily towards a normal (or inexpensive morph) of a ball python based on my limited experience handling them and corn snakes. I also prefer their appearance. However, I do appreciate that corn snakes are more easier feeders, more active during the day (which could be nice for students when simply watching it) and generally hardier. As such I am still open to a corn snake but would really want to find an extremely chill one when it comes to handling like the snake that SamSimon described.

One reason to go with a ball python over a corn snake is that a corn that freaks out and decides to run for the hills is very fast and fairly skinny (even a larger adult), and could disappear into tiny dark holes before you know it. An adult ball python that freaks out and tries to run isn't as fast and can't fit into as many small spaces. Anyone handling the snake needs to be calm and gentle obviously, but it does seem to me that an adult ball python may be less likely to get irretrievably lost if things go haywire (and even a chill one could panic given enough commotion).

Question-
1) I would just like to hear your thoughts on this matter though I appreciate you may be just a little biased ;)

Corns are wonderful, too. I miss mine every day. :(

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by HellsAekel

Wow, thank you everyone! As Eric said what a great team. It's awesome to know that as I enter the world of keeping snakes there is such a friendly and helpful community. I'm learning a ton and starting to feel like I have a lot more direction. I will be sure to PM all of you a thank you at the end of the thread (which will include pictures of what I end up with). (Also I noticed that a lot of users have "thanked x times in y threads." Is there a button for that or does the site take care of it automatically?)

Just a quick disclaimer before I jump in-
In what follows I will just shoot out any questions that I currently have. This is only the second forum I've ever joined so I'm still getting used to the medium. Constructive feedback on the nature of my posts (i.e. too long(?)) is welcome. Also, if there is a salient thread that I have not yet found it is not for a lack of trying and would appreciate being referred to it. I'm doing as much research as I can in my free time, much of it on this site, but it is a lot to navigate in the time I have available.

Update on Circumstances, my Plans/Questions by Topic:

Circumstances:
As of day 1 the ambient room temperature was at a steady 72 degrees Fahrenheit.

Man, my students and I are fortunate that the school is in a well of area. Families have continued to donate to my GoFundMe and I know have a budget of $645.00 (I do also have over 70 students though). Of course this does not mean I need to spend it all. I do want to show that I am being honest with their donations however so any remainder will be used on a gift card to a pet store for food. In so doing I will be able to produce receipts for all funds.

Plans/Questions by Topic:

Enclosure-
If I buy an enclosure I will go with the T8 including door locks and lighting. Depending on the size of the snake I may buy the divider but will definitely go for an adult that I feel confident was regularly handled and has a great disposition. If I don't buy an enclosure it is because one or both of the tanks that a parent offered to donate will work in my circumstances. I will likely have to follow up with some questions when I learn more about them. I will also be sure to get and opaque covering for the tank to provide it an escape from all the happenings in my classroom. I may also do the
Questions-
1) Any thoughts on sliding vs. hinged doors? I've heard/read people both.
2) Any thoughts on florescent vs. LED lighting? I've heard/read people both.

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1) Personal preference. If it was for a retic or burm, i'd say go sliding doors as they can double as a shield.
2) Again personal preference. I use an 18" under cabinet fluorescent light for my HDPE cage but will probably go to either AP or RBI led tubes or install my own Home Depot ones in my Ap cages this summer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HellsAekel

Temperature and Humidity-
For the t-Stat I will invest in a Herpstat that can manage at least 2 devices. I'll pick up an 80 watt RBI RHP and heat tape (just to be safe). I'll also pick up a hygrometer, and two digital thermometers.

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Go to Walmart or Target and buy http://www.walmart.com/ip/Acu-Rite-I...r-00891/896347.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HellsAekel

1) The equipment listed above will indeed address the issue the woman spoke of and the initial experience that Coluber42 had correct? I just want to be as certain as possible before taking on this responsibility.*Quotes of each at the bottom of this post.
2) Once all of this equipment is dialed in to produce the right conditions, what is a safe amount of time to leave the snake alone? (I suppose answers may be contingent on what I continue to learn about the ambient temperatures of my room though.)
3) How difficult is it dial the equipment (particularly the Herpstat), and once I do is it more or less set forever if I use the pulse and not the dimming mode, or will it need regular adjustments as the seasons change? (Students and I will however keep a detailed temperature and humidity log of the snakes enclosure-all part of the great experience this snake will make to my classroom).
4) If I do end up with a AP T8, what should I expect to do to maintain humidity levels? At the Vivarium I went to they spray twice a day but they are in wooden enclosures.
5) Is providing a humid hide with moist sphagnum moss sufficient for a ball python over weekends? In general?

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1) Heat lamps just aren't good period. CHEs and RHPs are fine. And you want the RHP to only cover half the ceiling on a cage. You still need a temperature gradient.
2) I generally avoid handling new snakes until they have eaten with no problem 3 times in a row so with a BP, would be probably 3 weeks or so. You can change water and do routine cage stuff so the snake gets to know you but try to avoid long handling times. And obviously give 2-3 days after eating before handling.
3) They are easy to set up and for a RHP I would use the dimming mode. That's what I use for all my UTHs, CHEs and RHPs. Also there is a low/high temp alarm you turn on and set the low and high thresh holds for when the alarm goes off.
4) Just buy a large water dish and place it in the middle or the cage or slightly off under the RHP. You should have no problem with humidity. I use aspen in my HDPE cage with a RHP and a large water bowl and I sit at 60-70% humidity without even trying.
5) Depends on your humidity. I don't use them on any of my snakes but I also keep their humidity between 50-70% depending on if in shed or not. Its about controlling the air flow which a PVC cage will do just by design.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HellsAekel

Question-
1) I would just like to hear your thoughts on this matter though I appreciate you may be just a little biased

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by HellsAekel

;)

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I personally prefer boas over a corn or BP but that's just me. Both my boas are far more outgoing and actually like to come out and ride on me while I do stuff. My BP seems to really care less if she comes out or sits in her hide.



*Relating to Question 1 from the "Enclosure-" section.
In my OP I mentioned that a seemingly knowledgeable clerk at a specialized Vivarium store said something to the following effect about high wattage heat lamps: "while it will be able to heat the entire tank (I am open to wood, plastic, glass or melamine) even in a cold room, it would heat up so quickly that the thermostat will quickly shut it off and it will not be possible to maintain the correct temperature." This sounds similar to what Coluber42 said "I have a 20-gallon tank with foam wrapped around three sides plus the bottom, and an 80-watt RHP. I modified the screen top to hold the RHP and covered over most of the remaining screen area. One 80-watt panel is cheaper than two 40-watt ones; and if you end up not needing all that wattage, it will just run at a lower power (or just not all the time) and it will be fine.
I had the RHP on a cheaper thermostat for awhile, but it made for really wide temperature swings; and in such a cold room, the temperature was swinging up and down pretty fast, too."[/QUOTE]

I have a related/unrelated question to this whole project... (which I think is awesome, by the way). Will you or someone from your class be caring for the snake once summer break comes around? I know here, that's only about 2 months away. Just want to make sure you weren't planning on leaving it in the classroom over the summer. :)

I like LED lighting, as it usually produces less heat, and good LEDs last a long time. I use aquarium fixtures, so I don't have to worry about over-spray when cleaning or misting.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LittleTreeGuy

I have a related/unrelated question to this whole project... (which I think is awesome, by the way). Will you or someone from your class be caring for the snake once summer break comes around? I know here, that's only about 2 months away. Just want to make sure you weren't planning on leaving it in the classroom over the summer. :)

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This is something that I have been thinking about quite a bit. As it stands I will most likely keep it in the classroom over the summer vacation. However, I will be teaching a summer school and pass by my school every day and come in regularly to work on my plans for the coming year.

Between this, the fact that the summers are pretty mild out here, and the fact that there will be summer school (though not in my room) and the temperatures will continue to be managed during the day made me think that this would work out.

That said if you think I've overlooked something I would love to hear about it.

One other thing I am considering is allowing students to take it home over the break. I am much less certain about this and I would have to feel extremely confident about both the student and their parents. I would also visit their house to set up all of the equipment. I don't really know whether this will end up happening there are some families that I would feel consider doing this with. For example one family has kept ball pythons before and the father of another student breeds woma pythons.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HellsAekel

This is something that I have been thinking about quite a bit. As it stands I will most likely keep it in the classroom over the summer vacation. However, I will be teaching a summer school and pass by my school every day and come in regularly to work on my plans for the coming year.

Between this, the fact that the summers are pretty mild out here, and the fact that there will be summer school (though not in my room) and the temperatures will continue to be managed during the day made me think that this would work out.

That said if you think I've overlooked something I would love to hear about it.

One other thing I am considering is allowing students to take it home over the break. I am much less certain about this and I would have to feel extremely confident about both the student and their parents. I would also visit their house to set up all of the equipment. I don't really know whether this will end up happening there are some families that I would feel consider doing this with. For example one family has kept ball pythons before and the father of another student breeds woma pythons.

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I would not leave it in the classroom over the summer. While most snakes would actually be okay in a good enclosure if checked on every couple of days, but face it... Summer will get here, Maybe you'll have a long weekend, you'll think "ah... I can check on it tomorrow".... then the hot water tank goes out at your house, and your focus changes. Before long, it's been 2 weeks and you think, Oh, I have to go feed that snake!. Unknown to you, they shut power off at the school for the past week to fix an electrical problem. Snake is a goner.

While that scenario is pretty unlikely (and I hope your hot water tank is fine), things do happen, and life happens. Personally, I'd take it home myself for summer break, or if you know of a family who is willing to take the time to learn, and be responsible snake owners for a few months, let them take it. Just because someone has or has had snakes, doesn't mean they're good at it. Also, if someone already has snakes, you need to make sure they can keep this snake and tank isolated from their others for a quarantine period. Some folks would suggest 90 days, others suggest 6 months. Just to prevent any illness or health issues from spreading. Really, it's not hard to keep a reptile once you have all of the husbandry issues in check. It is nice to be able to keep an eye on the animal, its enclosure (or messes it makes), and the electrical devices all daily, just to make sure things are all within limits.

This is just my 2 cents...

[QUOTE=LittleTreeGuy;2426001]I would not leave it in the classroom over the summer. While most snakes would actually be okay in a good enclosure if checked on every couple of days, but face it... Summer will get here, Maybe you'll have a long weekend, you'll think "ah... I can check on it tomorrow".... then the hot water tank goes out at your house, and your focus changes. Before long, it's been 2 weeks and you think, Oh, I have to go feed that snake!. Unknown to you, they shut power off at the school for the past week to fix an electrical problem. Snake is a goner.

This is a great point. On the one had I was thinking that it would be super easy to stop by several times a week as I will have to pass by my school 5 times a week. On the other hand I totally see what you are saying and it might even be possible for me to take a donated tank to my house.

Now this might be a crazy question but... I exclusively ride a motorcycle and my commute is 45 minutes. If I were to put a snake in a nice pillow case, on top of a pillow, in a large 50 liter Chromebag, could I safely transport it on my motorcycle?

It would be great if this were possible but I absolutely would not want to stress the snake. i simply don't know whether being in something like a pillow case might keep it very relaxed...

If not I can totally rent or borrow a car and transport the entire tank.

It would also just be sweet to have the snake all to myself, possibly chilling with me for TV and video games.:gj:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HellsAekel

1) Any thoughts on sliding vs. hinged doors? I've heard/read people both.

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I prefer sliding doors. I've found swing doors greatly increase the chances of the snake bursting out of the enclosure at feeding time.

Sauzo made a similar point, and lucky me they are cheaper too. Sliding doors it is unless someone chimes in with a big pro for hinged doors that I should weigh....

Putting the snake in the saddlebag is 100% not advisable nor is leaving it in a hot school over the summer. Both situations have the potential to create large amounts of stress in a best case scenario and potential injury/death in worst case scenarios. Not trying to rain on your parade but the health of the animal needs to come first.

Just take him home during school summer vacation. AP cages are very light and easy to move. And if you are using an RHP and stuff, you don't have to disassemble anything. Just take the water bowl out, put the snake in a Tupperware container on the front seat and load the cage into the back your car and shazam, you are gtg.

Having left that post about transporting it in a backpack on a motorcycle out there for a while I realize how ridiculous it sounds. I did not have any real hope that it would have been ok to do so and I only would have tried it if there was an OVERWHELMING number of responses say that it was fine to do so along with a justification.

I figured it was worth asking though as I was told it would be alright. By a salesman of course, but I trusted him more than someone from say Petco since he works at a dedicated Vivarium.

Well, Renting a car twice a year or so does not sound terrible, especially when weighing the fact that th ball python will get to stay with me for a few months. A colleague may even be down to help me even though it is over an hour of a commute in the car. Thanks for answering what seemed like a pretty outlandish question, even to me theskyturnsgrey.:gj:



Are there any particular things I should do when transporting the snake in a car? Leave it in the terrarium for heat for example but put two pillows that I am willing to sacrifice in there with em and just drive slow for example?

Again, this may be getting way ahead of things but I wan't to try and consider as many facets of what I am taking on.

Just put the snake in a Tupperware container or a small plastic sterilite container or anything with a lid. Punch a couple holes in it and just turn the heat on in the car. I've had to actually pile all my gals in their tubs and put them in the car and run it for hours with the heater on when I lost power for like 12 hours and forgot to restock on UniHeat warmers. And guess what...I lost power again this past sunday and was out of UniHeat warmers again :( And my local pet shop that carries them was sold out and Bean Farm who I live close to was closed. Luckily I got some from my hardware store. Anyways, just put them in a container and turn the heater on so its comfortable.

No worries! I'm a rider too so I get your situation. Good luck with the project.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by theskyturnsgrey

Putting the snake in the saddlebag is 100% not advisable

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Why?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HellsAekel

Having left that post about transporting it in a backpack on a motorcycle out there for a while I realize how ridiculous it sounds. I did not have any real hope that it would have been ok to do so and I only would have tried it if there was an OVERWHELMING number of responses say that it was fine to do so along with a justification.

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I have transported many in my collection as well as sold/delivered in the saddle bad on my XL1200V.
Though my bag is on the left side, not exhaust side. I doubt you ride anything louder or with harder suspension.
I have not had any problems or heard problems from any of my customers.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h1...pse09105ae.jpg

I'd agree with Pit... Unless the temperature is too cold (or too hot), I don't think a 30 minute trip would bother a bp. Put it in a pillow case, and put it in your saddle bag, maybe with a t-shirt under it for some cushion. It's probably a softer ride than the back of a FedEx truck.

Hmmm that's interesting that there are some folks who think it would be alright. If I did it would not be in a saddle bag. It would be in this bag on my back.

As far as noise,y exhaust is stock and quiet up to 5k rpm an I can easily cruise on the highway under that.

My suspension is pretty stiff though. It's sprung for someone 50lbs heavier than me.

However, if I can avoid using my bike, and I am certain I will be able to, I will just for the sake of being extra careful.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

Just put the snake in a Tupperware container or a small plastic sterilite container or anything with a lid. Punch a couple holes in it and just turn the heat on in the car. I've had to actually pile all my gals in their tubs and put them in the car and run it for hours with the heater on when I lost power for like 12 hours and forgot to restock on UniHeat warmers. And guess what...I lost power again this past sunday and was out of UniHeat warmers again :( And my local pet shop that carries them was sold out and Bean Farm who I live close to was closed. Luckily I got some from my hardware store. Anyways, just put them in a container and turn the heater on so its comfortable.

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Thanks for the advice and MAN, those sound like quite the ordeals!

Ok Two Lines of questioning specific to the T8 and RHPs.

RHP's:
Several people recommended the RBI RHP's over the Pro Series. I'm down with that but wonder how difficult they are to instal as animal plastics could install the pro series for me.

T8:
I've read quite a bit how the T8 can hold two of most full grown adult Ball Pythons. The question that I am left wondering is how difficult it would be two house a corn and a BP (this would be for in the future) if I am relying on RHP's for heat because of the possibility of big temperature fluctuations in my classroom.

Has any one looked into maintaining two separate temperature gradients using RHP's in the T8? I searched around the site and checked Serpent Merchent's post on the T8 but did not come up with a clear answer to this one. I ask know because it could shift around some of the other plans for purchasing if I want to have the option of adding a corn down the road.... (for example going with two 40watt RHP's as opposed to one cheaper 80 watt).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HellsAekel

Ok Two Lines of questioning specific to the T8 and RHPs.

RHP's:
Several people recommended the RBI RHP's over the Pro Series. I'm down with that but wonder how difficult they are to instal as animal plastics could install the pro series for me.

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Either RBI or Pro Products are good. I personally use a Pro Products but will probably try an RBI one. They are easy to install. Just lay it on the roof of the cage where you want it and then mark the 2 holes with a piece of chalk or a scribe or anything you can see. Then drill the 2 holes with whatever size bolts they give you, I think mine were 1/4". Then put the bolts through the RHP and put it inside the cage and put the bolts through the holes and tighten the nuts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HellsAekel

T8:
I've read quite a bit how the T8 can hold two of most full grown adult Ball Pythons. The question that I am left wondering is how difficult it would be two house a corn and a BP (this would be for in the future) if I am relying on RHP's for heat because of the possibility of big temperature fluctuations in my classroom.

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A T8 wont hold a adult ball pythons or at least I wouldn't want to. 2x2 is just too small for a full grown snake unless its something like an adult male Hognose. Also there is the problem of you would need 2 RHPs, probably 40 watt ones on each side. And there is the whole quarantine process but that's another story.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HellsAekel

Has any one looked into maintaining two separate temperature gradients using RHP's in the T8? I searched around the site and checked Serpent Merchent's post on the T8 but did not come up with a clear answer to this one. I ask know because it could shift around some of the other plans for purchasing if I want to have the option of adding a corn down the road.... (for example going with two 40watt RHP's as opposed to one cheaper 80 watt).

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With that small of an area, you wont maintain a temp gradient really. You just heat the ambient with the RHP to about 86F and call it good. Smaller the area, less room there is for a gradient.

Alrighty then, sticking with one snake for now then

Bit of an update. During the day the room has been holding steady at 72 degrees. I will be going in later tonight or tomorrow night to see what temp it sits at at night after a weekend with no one in there.

I still plan to get the following for sure:

Herpastat or herpatat 2

80 what RHP

Basics (hides large water bowl, etc)

However with regard to the enclosure the following has come up:

It seems unlikely that I would be able to get the AP T8 within a good time frame for this year's students (they leave in early june) and their parents helped with raising money. The same applies for constrictors northwest which I am actually leaning more towards now due to the type of plastic they use.

On top of all this the parent that offered to donate a glass tank sent me a pic. I'm now considering modifying it with insulation and to hold an 80 watt RHP, as was described ealier by Coluber42.

This will enable my student and I to enjoy the snake sooner and I can still get the T8 or Constrictors northwest down the line.

This is how I got my 80-watt panel onto my screen lid.

Underside of lid:
http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/a...0underside.jpg

Lid closed:
http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/a...0lid%20top.jpg

The panel is screwed into the two wood scraps across the top right through the screen. As you can see on the underside, the panel fills most of the lid; the remaining screen is covered with foil. The panel is just slightly too big to get all the way inside the rim of the tank, plus there needs to be room for the cord to come out. So I added blocks (just screwed through the screen as well) around the rest of the lid to set it up a little higher. The luggage strap is nice and snug and keeps it from sliding around, since it's really just resting on the blocks; the edge of the lid doesn't actually overhang the rim of the tank anymore.

http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/a...0top%20gap.jpg

In this last photo you can see that there's actually a bit of a gap (where you can see the running light for the panel) all along where the panel is; the cord comes neatly out the back the same way. A leetle baby corn snake or similar-sized critter could escape through that gap conceivably, but not a BP, even a baby. But it provides plenty of ventilation, so the screen can be completely covered. There's also a heat mat under the cave-looking hide and an extra UTH on the side of the tank just in case anything else ever fails and I need an additional heat source. In the winter, our programmable thermostat goes down to 52 during the day when no one's home, and 55 overnight when we're in bed under about eight big blankets. The living room usually doesn't go much below 55. But between the herpstat and the RHP, the tank temp stays very stable.

I already had the tank... but when our little guy outgrows it, I'll be building a new enclosure out of PVC, and hopefully the 80-watt panel will still do the job.

Anyway, as you can see, this is a very simple way of mounting the panel, and it probably took less than 20 minutes, including digging up the scrap pieces. It would be very easy to do a nicer job (or just build a new top for the panel) but I'm too lazy since he'll just move into something bigger later.

Thanks Coluber42! That's awesome.

So I hit up Coluber because after speaking with ALL of the plastic cage makers I learned that the shortest time for delivery out of all of them would be 4 weeks. At that point all of my students would only be with me for another month and a half and their parents donated most of the money.

I've also heard back from the parent who offered to donate the tank and he will be dropping it off for me at school tomorrow. Tomorrow is a pretty crazy day but at some point I hope to upload pictures and brainstorm what I can do. Depending on the size of the tank I may need to go for a snake that is not quite full grown but still old enough that it has been handled a lot and get a plastic tank down the line.

My plan at the moment is to do something similar to what Coluber42 has done and see how it works out for me.

I may also pull some ideas from this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5u3GIcX_Djc

The parent also offered me a really nice exo terra tank similar to the one in the video, but I think it might be even larger (in all dimensions).

That does not seem like a good fit for a ball python (and it might be a heating nightmare too), but I am curious to hear what you all think.

In any event I will have pictures of the smaller glass tank which looks similar to Coluber's from what I saw and I will upload them tomorrow or the day after as time allows.

Quick Update (More to follow)

Thanks for all the help guys!

This is what I have set up:
40 gallon breeder
Insulated twice on both sides, the back and about 75% of the top with reflective plastic insulation
Accurite Thermometer (prob near glass by hotspot main device near glass on cold side)
Herpstat II (1 prob on UTh and 1 2 inches about the ground in the center of the tank for ambient temps)
150 watt CHE
Daily access to Temp gun
Exo Terra UTH (was gonna do flexwatt but garuntees and no exposed wires better for classroom due to legal issues)
a base layer of craft paper
Shredded Aspen
Sphangum Moss
A half log hide
a cork "tree trunk" hide with 3 openings
A large ceramic water bowel
12 feet of fake plants/vines much of which is at the bottom front of the tank for extra cover
humidity is holding at 55% and temps range from 80 to 92 degrees in a non-linear fashion (I started a new post on this entitled "Temperature Gradient (Does it have to be linear?), Snake Size and Thermal Regulation"

I'm planning on getting a 2 1/2 male pinstripe

Any suggestions are welcomed and appreciated!

Thanks again for all your help!