BP Euthanasia (Feeding Normal Spinoff)

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Originally Posted by lunasjy

It's not me who wants to feed off normals... just so you know. I got into breeding pretty much the same time as a friend of mine did. We are both good friends with another breeder who sells his as a packaged deal or whole sale to pet stores. My friend sees this and doesn't have the same opportunity so he is afraid that he wont be able to sell the normals. I am not sure how true this is. I know personally I only have one normal and probably wont buy more as a personal choice.

I am just going to let him do what he wants to do. As for myself, I will not feed normals off to my other snakes. I do have a king snake but he eats mice just fine.

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If you guys know a guy that sells wholesale, why not ask him to buy yours? He's obviously getting paid for the snakes, you can just get half or even less, the snakes are gone, no work for you, and you get that little bit of money to put back into feeders.

I have thought about getting something that would eat any hatchlings that didn't make it, just because it seems like there's no easy and humane way of putting a snake down. It seems like expensive trip to the vet or smashing their head with a hammer (I'm not even close to killing rats with my hands, let alone smashing something's head). Freezing and co2 is just torture for them so I wouldn't do that either. Having them fed off naturally just seems like the most humane thing to do.

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Originally Posted by bks2100

co2 is just torture for them

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I respectfully disagree. And while feeding a snake to a snake eater may be natural, I have a hard time rating that action as "more humane" than CO2 dispatch.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

I'd worry one of my babies would end up starving at a big box store. I'd rather give it away to someone I know will take proper care of it.

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I'd worry about that no matter what. I mean even if a big name in the industry wants my snake, how do you know they'll treat it well? Even if I gave a snake away to a friend or someone else as a purely pet gift, who knows what they'll do with it in 1, 2, 5 years. They might give it away to someone who doesn't care, they might stop caring themselves, or maybe they'll get tired of it and just release it when it can't survive in that location.

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Originally Posted by Slim

I respectfully disagree. And while feeding a snake to a snake eater may be natural, I have a hard time rating that action as "more humane" than CO2 dispatch.

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Have you used co2 on a snake before? I can't find anyone that has because they all say that snakes don't react to the co2 the same way, they use way less oxygen but have a similar reaction to too much co2. If you give rodents too much co2 they hyperventilate and suffer while they die. This doesn't really last long for the rat, but it takes much longer on the snake, hence the inhumane.

I wish that co2 was the most humane way so that there's a simple and easy way to end a snakes suffering, but the fact that no one does it tells me something. Especially when the two ways it seems like everyone does it is either expensive (vet injection, not to mention the horror stories of how this goes) or it's gruesome (destruction of the brain), why would anyone do either of those if they could use the co2 chamber they have for rodents?

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Originally Posted by bks2100

Have you used co2 on a snake before? I can't find anyone that has because they all say that snakes don't react to the co2 the same way, they use way less oxygen but have a similar reaction to too much co2. If you give rodents too much co2 they hyperventilate and suffer while they die. This doesn't really last long for the rat, but it takes much longer on the snake, hence the inhumane.

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I don't want to go too far off topic, but agreed, I've always read CO2 is not a humane way to euthanize a reptile. As you noted, vet (usually heart stick) or blunt force head trama are the fastest and generally humane ways to go. I recently found this article (link below) which discusses freezing, freezing on it's own was a widely used practice but not generally humane without first using the fridge, you do not ever want to put a reptile directly into the freezer. At least it's another option if you can't do the first two. I've done all three at one point over the years, it's never an easy thing no matter what method.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...cienceDaily%29

another good source of info on this topic:
https://www.avma.org/KB/Policies/Doc...euthanasia.pdf

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Originally Posted by bks2100

Have you used co2 on a snake before?

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No I have not. Never had a reason to.

Have you been eaten alive by a snake before?

Thank you for the thread split :gj:

Best Mods in the business!

AVMA guidelines for humane euthanasia

Reptiles have their very own section - S7.3.

Pretty sure skiploader had (or posted in?) in a similar thread and actually sited information for why CO2 is not an efficient or humane way to euthanize a snake which contained links with sources. I'd have to go digging for it and I'm at work rn so that may be a bit. Long story short: snakes and other reptiles do not metabolize CO2 the same as mammals, they do not quietly slip into unconsciousness and pass within a few minutes. It's for the same reason that heads remain conscious and able to bite even hours after decapitation. Their brains do not require the same oxygen levels to continue functioning and so the animal does not loose consciousness but is awake and alive for the whole process. Last I checked, pithing where in the brain matter is completely destroyed was still the fastest, most humane way to dispatch a snake, but one that takes some practice to do skillfully and effectively so as to not cause the animal to suffer.

Destruction of the brain would be the most humane for a unskilled owner. Yes, it's "brutal" but it should also be instant.

CO2 is humane for rodents, but as stated above, doesn't work properly with snakes.

Vet euthanasia ensures it cannot be used for food purposes to anything, so it's a waste and you'd have the high vet bill, and need a good reptile vet who knows how also.

I see lots of people who decry the brutal method because they are squeamish and don't want to admit that it's the fastest method for "at home". But also, we should all be aware that if the wrong person saw it, or knew about it, the owner could come under fire for inhumane killing of a pet, or even be arrested for animal abuse, regardless of the reason the snake was being put down.

There's a lot of details to look at overall and of course, there's rarely a perfect solution to a situation none of us would want to be in. As far as me personally, I would rather discuss it and think about it BEFORE I have need of a solution. Otherwise if the situation arises, there might not be a lot of time and the snake could be suffering while I dither over it.

Edit: I just had the slightly amusing thought that if someone kills a pet snake with a hammer, they're a inhuman monster abusing a pet.... but if someone kills a wild snake with a hammer, they're a hero saving the local kids from a vicious wild creature. Can't win sometimes!

Unless the snake is large and strong, a blow to the head does not take much skill.

A big snake flailing around could be a problem. I've seen Viper Keeper use a tube for some procedures (not euthanasia).

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Originally Posted by SmoothScales

Reptiles have their very own section - S7.3.

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From section S7.3.5.1 of the AVMA Guide:

Carbon dioxide—Carbon dioxide may be considered for euthanasia of amphibians and reptiles if alternate methods are not practical and where the limitations of this method are understood and addressed. Due to the potential lack of response to this method by many species and the requirement for a prolonged exposure time, other methods are preferable. Death by CO2 must be verified, and preferably, assured by application of a secondary lethal procedure.

While it clearly states that other methods are preferable, it does list CO2 as something to be considered. No where does it refer to this method as inhumane.

I think the issue w carbon dioxide would be acheiving the prolonged exposure required to dispatch said reptile.

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Originally Posted by Slim

From section S7.3.5.1 of the AVMA Guide:
. Death by CO2 must be verified, and preferably, assured by application of a secondary lethal procedure.[/I] .

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I think this is where I will take it to mean that death by CO2 must be followed by a second type of euthanasia. So even if you use CO2 in a long prolonged exposure, you should still follow THAT by some other method to dispatch the snake "for sure". This could mean putting it into a freezer, but if the CO2 is not reliable enough to kill the snake, there would be a slight possibility of the snake coming to enough to be aware of freezing too?

To me, death by CO2 seems almost impossible in a home setting. Unless I suppose, you were to use a airtight container flooded with the CO2 and leave the snake in there for a extended period(hours?) and then you'd still want to do something more afterwards.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

I think this is where I will take it to mean that death by CO2 must be followed by a second type of euthanasia. So even if you use CO2 in a long prolonged exposure, you should still follow THAT by some other method to dispatch the snake "for sure". This could mean putting it into a freezer, but if the CO2 is not reliable enough to kill the snake, there would be a slight possibility of the snake coming to enough to be aware of freezing too?

To me, death by CO2 seems almost impossible in a home setting. Unless I suppose, you were to use a airtight container flooded with the CO2 and leave the snake in there for a extended period(hours?) and then you'd still want to do something more afterwards.

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And even then, that method makes me nervous... In wildlife rehab, we sometimes have to use Isoflurane (ether), and the mammals will stop breathing but their hearts beat for several minutes after. The vet's office (when available) will do a heart stick once the animal goes to sleep, which is the method I prefer because it's a sure death and the animal is asleep. If I'm out in the field and the animal has no chance I'll just shoot it on site, which is also very quick. Do I enjoy it? Not at all. Does it need to be done? Yep.

If using just gas, be it C02 or Ether, you have to be 100% certain the animal is completely deceased, which is very hard to do with an unconscious snake. For mammals I euthanize, I check heartbeat by stethoscope several times over the course of several minutes after the first confirmed absent heartbeat. With turtles and alligators, gas is usually ineffective since they can slow their metabolism and hold their breath for prolonged periods. So I say, if you're too squeamish to be able to dispatch the animals in your care in the quickest and most humane way (pithing or head/c spine destruction), you shouldn't get into the business. It ain't for sissies. I hate killing animals but it's such a big, and important, part of wildlife rehab. It's truly the most humane solution in many situations. That's how I make peace with it.

Just my $.02

This topic has perplexed me for sometime. There does not seem to be a lot of information on the subject, and I plan to breed in the future I will certainly need it. What exactly is the method people use in pithing. I understand the general idea but I am looking for specifics such as the placement of the probe and anything else.