Feeding off normal ball pythons...

A buddy of mine was talking about feeding off any normals he produced to his other snakes. He only has a corn snake, a few boas, bloods and ball pythons... I am not sure if any one of these would actually eat another snake willingly, but that is besides the point. I have mixed feelings about this. I kind of understand since normals are very hard to sell here, to the point people give them away for free and lose money feeding ball pythons that wont bring in any cash. But deep down, it doesn't seem right. I know we feed mice and rats and what not, but to purposely kill something because it doesn't make you money, seems a bit harsh.

So what are your opinions on this? Would you do it?

None of those would eat another snake (normally).
The two BELs that I lost last year went to a friends MBK.
I am not one to really like to force feed either but I will try once.
This past year I had a couple that just wouldn't eat on their own.
Off to his kings they went.

I don't care if its a normal or a morph, I would rather see it used as a feeder than to just die and go in the trash.
I will admit it was a bit different to see than watching a normal rodent feeding.
Would I feed off a healthy snake that is booming on it own? No.

I've never had a problem selling normals for 10-20 bucks, seems silly, you could buy a lot more food for the value of the normal. If you really have that much of a problem selling normals, I don't know how well you will do selling morphs in the same market. If thats your only option though, might as well feed another animal..

I've heard of people feeding hatchlings to pac man frogs, but they were always snakes that died on their own or were going to die (bad kinks, etc).

As to the morality I don't think there's a problem with it. I bet a lot of people do but it might be just because we like snakes. It's probably the same as all the people that think we're monsters for feeding mice and rats to our snakes.

I'd be more surprised if someone was feeding morphs or female normals off, just because those still have value and enough demand to be able to get rid of them, even if it's for next to nothing. But I can just see the males being so hard to sell that you might feed them off if something can eat it.

I don't know how hard it is to sell normals... I haven't yet had the opportunity. I could see if it was one that was dead or dying, but a healthy baby ball python, I am not too sure. I know there are breeders here that say normals are hard to sell, but they sell eventually, even if it is at a loss.

If the animal is completely healthy and just not making him income (money being the motivator to kill them off) I see an issue with it, especially as Pit pointed out the snakes you listed don't normally feed on snakes. I know people that feed snakes that passed or didn't make it to others that would normally feed on them (cobras for example), but that is a little different.

Personally, I don't see a problem feeding a snake that just didn't make it, not due to illness but either defects or an unexplained failure to thrive, to another snake - if that snake would normally eat another. I've no doubt that if I put my little tiny female Kingsnake in with my male, she'd be a meal in no time at all. That said, I would never put her in there alive, and if she died, I'd want an autopsy to find out more about what's wrong with her rather than feed her to Tsoss. But feeding off healthy snakes just because they aren't a desirable mutation? Eh... I can sort of see where it is reasonable, rather than have them end up where they'll probably die slowly of neglect, and yet I still don't like it.

I believe that breeding these animals comes with a responsibility. I've seen it mentioned on many threads to someone new who may be contemplating breeding for the first time, that they should consider they will have to feed and care for whatever animals they produce for some time until they can find a Buyer. I too agree with the philosophy. I think if someone is just feeding off normal to reduce their feed expenditures or relieve some of their work load, they should seriously reconsider the hobby.

Regarding the difficulty of selling Normals, I have never had any trouble moving Normal hatchlings. They don't fetch a high dollar figure but they are easily salable.

That being said, I do not take issue with someone feeding a snake to another that is known to eat snakes as part of their normal diet in the wild. The food chain does not start or stop at rodents. I also think if someone has an agreement to sell normal off as feeders to a breeder of kings or indigos, etc., that it is business and a matter of supply and demand. If they are raised to be feeders it's no different then chickens. I am just not comfortable with the scenario the OP has described, as it seems lazy, cheap, and irresponsible. Just my $0.02.

I have no issue with feeding Normals, or any BP for that matter, to snakes that naturally eat other snakes as part of their wild diet.

Having said that, I do not believe I would spend much time speaking about it on the best known ball python forum on the interwebs. By the same token, I wouldn't talk much about feeding off rodents on a fancy rat forum.
;)

I see on both sides of the fence on this one ... To save myself a lot of typing, I agree verbatim with what rlditmars said .... Do you have anybody give you rat feeders for your snakes for free??? .... I know I most certainly do not .... So if someone were to supply normals to someone who has a snake eating snake ... I would not expect them to go without a fee

I have no issue with BPs being used as feeders. I would have an issue with someone forcing a unsuitable prey to a snake that doesn't eat other snakes as part of it's diet.

But to feed kingsnakes, cobras, etc that are snake-eaters? No. That's fine. If someone doesn't want to bother selling $10 normal males(and it does often take way more time and fuss than is desirable), and has a market/need to supply them as feeders instead, then it's acceptable to me to supply the feeders.

I have sold many normal males. But if I had a friend who had a snake-eater, I would consider supplying feeders if they were having issues finding them. Consider. Because honestly, I watch each baby emerge from an egg here and glory over every little head... normal or morph.

Some fates are worse than death.

Obviously, there are $10 normals under excellent care, and $1000 morphs enduring horrible circumstances, but the better chances are not with the normal.

I breed milk goats, but only sell surplus goats to people who want the animal for meat, and will butcher right away. Since this happens rarely, I usually end up having the animal butchered for our freezer. The standard of care around here is poor, and I won't risk putting a goat in a home that provides inadequate shelter, low quality feed, no hoof trimmings, no wormings, inadequate mineral supplements, and have it penned with bigger horned goats it would be defenseless against.

...a harsh stance for sure, but I've seen too many sad situations.

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Originally Posted by distaff

Some fates are worse than death.

Obviously, there are $10 normals under excellent care, and $1000 morphs enduring horrible circumstances, but the better chances are not with the normal.

I breed milk goats, but only sell surplus goats to people who want the animal for meat, and will butcher right away. Since this happens rarely, I usually end up having the animal butchered for our freezer. The standard of care around here is poor, and I won't risk putting a goat in a home that provides inadequate shelter, low quality feed, no hoof trimmings, no wormings, inadequate mineral supplements, and have it penned with bigger horned goats it would be defenseless against.

...a harsh stance for sure, but I've seen too many sad situations.

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no, not a harsh stance. the animals are not going to waste. what's harsh is knowingly putting an animal in a situation where it will not be properly cared for.

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Originally Posted by distaff

Some fates are worse than death.

Obviously, there are $10 normals under excellent care, and $1000 morphs enduring horrible circumstances, but the better chances are not with the normal.

I breed milk goats, but only sell surplus goats to people who want the animal for meat, and will butcher right away. Since this happens rarely, I usually end up having the animal butchered for our freezer. The standard of care around here is poor, and I won't risk putting a goat in a home that provides inadequate shelter, low quality feed, no hoof trimmings, no wormings, inadequate mineral supplements, and have it penned with bigger horned goats it would be defenseless against.

...a harsh stance for sure, but I've seen too many sad situations.

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My sentiments exactly. I would rather normals, a "disposable pet" to much of the public, get fed off and benefit another animal than to go to a home with substandard care.

Have I had this happen yet? No, but I also have an adult male mbk on stand by if I have babies who don't thrive. I haven't had trouble finding good homes for my normal babies so far, but I am open to the other option.

It isn't about cost of feeding or housing these babies, or difficulty selling, I would just rather not have the other alternative, a snake in a household that doesn't care for the snake properly.

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It's not me who wants to feed off normals... just so you know. I got into breeding pretty much the same time as a friend of mine did. We are both good friends with another breeder who sells his as a packaged deal or whole sale to pet stores. My friend sees this and doesn't have the same opportunity so he is afraid that he wont be able to sell the normals. I am not sure how true this is. I know personally I only have one normal and probably wont buy more as a personal choice.

I am just going to let him do what he wants to do. As for myself, I will not feed normals off to my other snakes. I do have a king snake but he eats mice just fine.

So... a little off topic... but when a snake eats another snake... does it constrict, or does it just overwhelm the other with sheer size?

I am okay with snakes being fed to snakes that are snake eaters... but I don't necessarily think I would brag about/ talk about it on snake boards, or to other owners, as someone else said. It's just insensitive. I also feel like wolfy-hound... I would have a hard time feeding healthy babies as feeders if I bred them. I would be excited to see each baby come out, and would not want to think that I was doing that just for them to die. I think this is why I don't breed snakes.

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Originally Posted by Hypancistrus

So... a little off topic... but when a snake eats another snake... does it constrict, or does it just overwhelm the other with sheer size?

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Its a power and size thing.
I know they did constrict but it went down alive with the MBK

I dont agree - if he just going to try and feed another snake because he "CANT BE BOTHERED" to try and rehome it then he shouldnt breed snakes.

an Ill snake, or a snake that wont survive anyway is different.

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Originally Posted by lunasjy

It's not me who wants to feed off normals... just so you know. I got into breeding pretty much the same time as a friend of mine did. We are both good friends with another breeder who sells his as a packaged deal or whole sale to pet stores. My friend sees this and doesn't have the same opportunity so he is afraid that he wont be able to sell the normals. I am not sure how true this is. I know personally I only have one normal and probably wont buy more as a personal choice.

I am just going to let him do what he wants to do. As for myself, I will not feed normals off to my other snakes. I do have a king snake but he eats mice just fine.

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If you guys know a guy that sells wholesale, why not ask him to buy yours? He's obviously getting paid for the snakes, you can just get half or even less, the snakes are gone, no work for you, and you get that little bit of money to put back into feeders.

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Originally Posted by bks2100

If you guys know a guy that sells wholesale, why not ask him to buy yours?

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I'd worry one of my babies would end up starving at a big box store. I'd rather give it away to someone I know will take proper care of it.

I know that feeding them to other animals is nature taking its course just as much as breeding rodents for that purpose is. But the idea of breeding animals as pets only to dispose of the ones that aren't fancy colors makes me uncomfortable. It reminds me too much of all the purebred dogs that suffer from known genetic deformities, just to produce the rare handful that can win shows; the same kind of story happens with horses, and other animals that we breed for superficial traits. Sometimes animals suffer because of inbreeding, sometimes it's because a desired trait is genetically linked to a potentially disabling one, and sometimes it's just because they aren't fancy looking. It's really unfortunate that an animal with a life expectancy measured in decades is sold for less than a burger at the pub down the street.

That said, I did just bring home a lesser pewter bp this week instead of a normal... even though actually I was half thinking about calling a breeder and offering to buy a normal for the same price, lol.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

I'd worry one of my babies would end up starving at a big box store. I'd rather give it away to someone I know will take proper care of it.

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There is some truth to this... when we got our female pied at the local Petsmart she was damn close to starving in my opinion. She was as big around as two of my very average sized fingers and they were feeding her fuzzies once every two weeks. I stepped her up to small weaned mice almost immediately and she is now on rat crawlers and doing great. She's lost that "gaunt" look she had.

When breeding animals you need to ensure that there is a demand for such animals, the demand might be different from one area to another.

Now your friend want to feed his "unwanted BP" to his other snakes well that's not gonna happen considering the species he is keeping so what than?

Feeders

There is a demand for feeder snakes and the demand cannot be filled with just deformed, or dead animals, snakes have to eat and there is nothing wrong with that. That being said the people buying those snakes are picky and want quality so they buy from people they know they can trust.

Wholesale

I have been wholesaling normal and single gene males to a large retailer (they have pet stores and do shows) for several years now however, you have to build a relationship and be able to provide a certain number of animals (they don't just buy 4 or 5 animals), and sometimes you get turn down because their current inventory is too high so you still end up having to care for your animals for a while longer.

Wholesale can also be done to local mom and pop pet stores however they often have poor husbandry conditions and might not have the exposure allowing them to sell a lot of animals fast.

Retail

Retail of normal can take a while, even free to good home can take a while.

Ultimately if you can't afford to keep it, don't breed it because there might be a need (regardless of the market) or their might not be or it might take time before the need arises. and the animal should not suffer because of it.

What will he do when he produces Pastel or Spider and they don't sell or not fast enough, and at that point is it even worth it to breed?

Over the years I have seen a lot of people getting into breeding without giving much though to the big picture and part of the big picture is what do I do with the hatchlings.

People need to ask themselves the right questions. Do I have a venue to sell (Online, local ad, shows)?, Is there a demand for what I produce? Am I established enough that even if their is a demand people will want to buy from me?


Just my :2cent:

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Originally Posted by bcr229

I'd worry one of my babies would end up starving at a big box store. I'd rather give it away to someone I know will take proper care of it.

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I'd worry about that no matter what. I mean even if a big name in the industry wants my snake, how do you know they'll treat it well? Even if I gave a snake away to a friend or someone else as a purely pet gift, who knows what they'll do with it in 1, 2, 5 years. They might give it away to someone who doesn't care, they might stop caring themselves, or maybe they'll get tired of it and just release it when it can't survive in that location.

The thread is now being re-opened after a little cleanup, for those wishing to continue the discussion regarding human ways to euthanize Ball Pythons and/or other reptiles you can now do so here http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ormal-Spinoff)

Back on topic now.

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Originally Posted by bks2100

I'd worry about that no matter what. I mean even if a big name in the industry wants my snake, how do you know they'll treat it well? Even if I gave a snake away to a friend or someone else as a purely pet gift, who knows what they'll do with it in 1, 2, 5 years. They might give it away to someone who doesn't care, they might stop caring themselves, or maybe they'll get tired of it and just release it when it can't survive in that location.

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I've told people who have taken the pet-quality critters that if they find they can't take care of it due to illness or money issues due to job loss, can't have it in a new apartment, etc. to contact me and I will take it back. I won't pay for it, but I will ensure it goes to another home.

These animals can live for decades and I figure that I brought them into the world so it's up to me to ensure they get the best possible homes throughout their lives.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

I've told people who have taken the pet-quality critters that if they find they can't take care of it due to illness or money issues due to job loss, can't have it in a new apartment, etc. to contact me and I will take it back. I won't pay for it, but I will ensure it goes to another home.

These animals can live for decades and I figure that I brought them into the world so it's up to me to ensure they get the best possible homes throughout their lives.

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Good for you!

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Originally Posted by bcr229

I've told people who have taken the pet-quality critters that if they find they can't take care of it due to illness or money issues due to job loss, can't have it in a new apartment, etc. to contact me and I will take it back. I won't pay for it, but I will ensure it goes to another home.

These animals can live for decades and I figure that I brought them into the world so it's up to me to ensure they get the best possible homes throughout their lives.

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Yes, good for you. I'm not in the market now, since I just got a new baby and don't plan on having more than one snake. But if I were shopping around, that policy would strongly incline me toward doing business with you on the general principle that you have a responsible attitude toward the animals you breed.

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Originally Posted by Coluber42

.... I'm not in the market now, since I just got a new baby and don't plan on having more than one snake.

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Good luck with that. ;)

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Originally Posted by Coluber42

I just got a new baby and don't plan on having more than one snake.

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:8:

I didn't plan on it either.