feeding issue?

ok so my spider girl has been eating small stunned rats. (she likes to attack right as they start to come to). but if i leave her tub open she will ignore the rat and try to come out so i typically have been closing her up and checking every few min while sitting near by. i checked yesterday and she had wrapped it but when i touched the tub she unwrapped and let go of it. so i closed her up noting that the rat was still breathing and hopeing she wouldn't shy away from it totally. when i checked again she was trying to eat it but i noticed it was still breathing so i opened the cage up and put part of her lower 1/2 around the rat and she constricted up on it.

my question is was i wrong to take this last step? my fear was that she would have the rat live in her and even if its just a spasm it could damage her mouth or throat.

First, why would you stun a rat to feed it to a snake?? That's both inhumane and unnecessary. A stunned rat can also "come to" and get very aggressive and injure your snake. Either pre kill it, feed it live, or feed frozen/thawed. You were wrong for taking every step.

thank you for the reply, nice to see i can get a negative comment with insults, i guess in your mind feeding an animal in your care is the first thing you can do wrong. as that was step one. i get it might not be humane but she refuses frozen thawed and pre-killed. and last time i feed her an un-stunned rat well i don't like having to put medicine on a snake because a rat kicked its scale off with its clawed foot that to me is undue harm to my snake.

your inability to come off in any way as helpful though has really up set me and made my question if this is just a forum for people to flame those who ask questions so that people like you can get an ego boost. in fact in the 4 people i know who keep snakes personally 3 others have had this happened and 2 of them said i did the right thing i was just posting it on here for further commentary not criticism.

in closing thank you for the reply but honestly your approach and attitude has put me off of ever caring what you have to say.

Okay maybe you didn't like SKO's tone, but that doesn't mean his reply was invalid. I know it's hard to hear criticisms concerning animal husbandry but he does have a point. I'll elucidate further, because yeah... a more informative response might have been more helpful.

I don't have experience regarding your particular issue as my BP takes f/t with no issues, but from what I've read on here from the many experienced keepers who own dozens to hundreds of snakes, I would suggest trying pre-killed and holding the rodent by the scruff (with tongs, of course) rather than dangling it by the tail. This makes a more realistically lively-looking prey item. I find that my BP seems to get the most excited when I let my hand shake a little, causing the feeder to appear as though it's trembling. I'm not sure which technique you use, but anything is worth a shot. The great thing about BPs is that they can skip a meal with no detriment to their health.

To answer your question: I think as long as your BP managed to eat the feeder after your intervention, it should be fine. It's good that you thought to prevent harm from the inside. It's possible that your snake assessed the situation and deemed that it didn't need to waste the energy to constrict because the feeder was already on its way to death. Not to rub the point in too much, but this wouldn't happen with non-stunned.

And I know you already know this logically, but I'd like you to think about the practice of stunning. Knocking the mouse out and then letting it "come to" is very traumatic to the rodent. If I were to be fed to a giant snake, I would much rather be killed painlessly and quickly before being put in with it, as opposed to getting bludgeoned, dropped in the cage, and being too disoriented and in pain to do anything. To top it off, as soon as your head clears and you can lie on the ground regaining your senses, you still have to go through the trauma of seeing the snake coming at you and starting to eat you. In this case, the rodent didn't even get the luxury of being constricted and quickly dying of a heart attack.

You still have to supervise the feeding anyway and this time you had to step in and correct something with the stunned feeder, so I don't know if the practice of stunning is really much better for you or your BP.

Sorry for my "harsh tone" but when I read that someone is bashing rats to stun them and offering it to their snakes, that's a little irritating. I've been on this forum for only a year and a half and have read countless threads about people asking for help to convert their snakes to f/t and have done so successfully with the help of very experienced forum members. It might take time and serious effort, but it's up to you to figure out your snake. So, to me, reading what you wrote makes me think you either didn't ask for help with that or didn't try hard enough. Either way, again, no way is it necessary to be doing what you are doing. And if it wasn't going to be me to put it harshly or bluntly and get you a little upset, it would have been someone else.

I've tried the holding pre-killed by the scruff for almost an hour. didn't work. i don't like harming the rats in all honesty i consider some of them pets and they are completely off of my feeder list. i however really cant stand some one who just flames some one online with out giving any tips or help whats so ever but to say that the person is wrong, there are a lot of new to snakes people who use these forums and such comments while it might come from a good place are wholly unneeded.

i always try to give her something pre-killed first. I've even tried letting a pre-killed lay in her tub over night as some have suggested. I've tried dragging the pre-killed around her tub and letting her follow the scent trail, nada. she in the 3 months we have had her has never once eaten pre-killed. and while she will eat live if offered i just really don't want her getting any more unneeded injuries. a small wound can get infected, many small wounds over the course of an animals life will shorten its life span.

how ever if you have any tips on how to do this other then what has been stated i am open to try something else. as stated i don't take any enjoyment out of stunning a rat, it is emotionally draining to be honest.

Without getting into the ins and outs of feeding stunned prey, I will say it sounds like you may have a shy eater. Given that, going forward I'd let the snake do what it does best once the rat's been introduced into the tub. Supervision is recommended, intervention can throw a shy eater off stride.

Bottom line, your snake did finally eat, so what you did wasn't the end of world.

Please feel free to continue the previous debate. I would like to mention however, while some practices may be standard, nothing is really one size fits all. Not all keepers do things the same way, and that doesn't make it a crime....may not be how YOU would do it, but doesn't make it a crime.

through help of reading post on here and with tips from others who have snakes i have gotten 8 of my 13 snakes to take frozen thawed on almost a weekly basis. i have 3 that wont but will take pre-killed rats and one that takes only mice. Charlotte is the only one who refuses pre-killed. I'm hopping to get all of them over to frozen thawed as i do consider that a more humane process (not the freezing alive method but the co2 method). But until she is willing to eat something that is f/t or pre-killed and is only willing to eat alive tell me what i should do to ensure she isnt getting injured by the rats. I've had others that only ate live for a while and none of them was ever injured. i have only had my snakes for 6 months this months so i am not an expert.

i want help but yeah when some is only giving me the "You were wrong for taking every step." comment yeah made me want to freaking quit this forum all together you might be coming from the right place with it but the harshness of it when you don't know me or everything I've done other then the small post you based it on was a major over step to me.

Have you tried feeding live? Not stunned? If it strikes when a rat comes to, then technically it is eating live. Maybe it doesn't feel secure eating in the tub. What is your set up like?

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Originally Posted by Mada

i want help but yeah when some is only giving me the "You were wrong for taking every step." comment yeah made me want to freaking quit this forum all together you might be coming from the right place with it but the harshness of it when you don't know me or everything I've done other then the small post you based it on was a major over step to me.

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OK, you're right so I apologize, but like I said reading that made me cringe. Maybe I should have put my phone down for two seconds before I replied. So let's move on and figure this out.

Your situation is understandable, I have seen from even big breeders with hundreds of animals that some of them just really don't take well to f/t. I'm sorry you've been having to do something that is emotionally draining to feed your animal, it can't be an easy thing to do.

How are you preparing your f/t mice? like under a heat lamp, with a hairdryer, in hot water...? Maybe if we go through enough factors, we can find something that is bothering your one particular BP and not all the others. I've heard some like only a certain color or sex of feeder, some maybe don't like them if their fur is wet, and a problem I once experienced when I was new was not having heated the feeder up enough.

we put warm water in a bucket once it cools down to 100 drop the frozen rats in it with them being placed in a zip lock bag. wait until they feel complacently thawed then remove them from the bag place on paper towels dry each off individually, then as we go to feed we have been putting them on a shelf in front of our heater getting them to 95 or so degrees in the head area and then offering via tail first, then if the snake doesn't take then via the scruff though i had one rat rip open from this which was not present.

as soon as i get my co2 set up i was going to instead of knocking the rat out pull it out once asleep and try it that way but i haven't find any way to do co2 that i feel is accurate enough to first put them to sleep and then dispatch them, and i have read mixed things on co2 set up's for pinkies where some say that due to their development they live longer with higher co2 then the more developed rats will. though i assume its just harder to tell a sleeping rat when its eyes arn't even open yet.

the only reason i don't want to do completely alive on her is shes one of my larger girls and is eating 6-8 week old rats who when she strikes have harmed her in the past. i know a missing scale isn't the end of the world and she has shed since and it healed/ the scale was replaced fully by the new one, but i still don't want my snake to get hurt just because it was trying to eat. and after that incident she will just try to get away from a fully alert rat. when it comes to a pre-killed she will just either not go near them or be laying on them and not showing interest. as far as holding the rat by the tail or by the scruff she will look at it for 5-10 min acting as if she is going to strike and then she will just give up and try to get out of the tub.

she is in a 41q tub in a 8 tub tower with currently just her and our big pastel girl her humidity sits 60-65% most days unless she decides to spill her water which she does often. temps are typically 89 hot side and 81 cold side with 83 air temp.

as far as the mouser of the group she will eat rats 1-2 weeks then she will refuse and only go for a mouse. but that is our smaller pastel

I'm not reading through all this because I only have one question: Have you seen the damage a scared rat can do?
I'm not talking about while coiled either.

yes i have, that is why i stay in the room i will even pull the food out if i need to re-leave my self. my biggest fear is harm happening to one of the snakes. hence why i took your advise on quarantining new snakes.

This might seem like an odd question since the snake is in a tub, but is there a hide in it? If the snake is that shy, maybe it does not feel that secure in the tub. The first thing I would try is get an appropriate sized hide that fits nice and snug around the snake. Pre kill a rat (cervical dislocation is easy and fast) and leave it in the tub over night. I pre kill the rats for my younger snake and she will wait for almost an hour until she pokes her head out, looks around like she's making sure the coast is clear, and then drags it into whichever hide she is in. It might just be something that simple, but let's go from simple solutions on up.

have not tried her with a hide, was worried after a post i saw on here about a snake breaking its neck when feeding like that. i could try a light weight card board box though and fold the opening outwards so it would have give if she bumps into it. we typically feed Tuesday nights so ill start looking for something now and give that a try.

If anything, the hide will give it a more secure feeling and if it can't down the rat inside it will move outside. I've never heard of that breaking neck story but that seems more like a freak accident. But yeah give that a try. Leave it in over night and see what happens then let us know. Do you know how to do a cervical dislocation?

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Originally Posted by Mada

have not tried her with a hide, was worried after a post i saw on here about a snake breaking its neck when feeding like that

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What da WHAT??? Mada, sorry, but that's taking over protection to an altitude unreachable by natural means. It's a ball python, not a Tiffany lamp shade. Please give that snake a hide. Might have a lot to do with the picky eating...

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Originally Posted by Slim

What da WHAT??? Mada, sorry, but that's taking over protection to an altitude unreachable by natural means. It's a ball python, not a Tiffany lamp shade. Please give that snake a hide. Might have a lot to do with the picky eating...

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Lol you're on a rampage this morning, I love it.

ok found a head phones box that was small enough to fit in a 41 quart tub with substrate under it and yet large enough for her to fit into even if a bit tight.

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Originally Posted by SKO

Lol you're on a rampage this morning, I love it.

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Shhhhhh Not so loud, I guy could get a reputation :rofl:

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Originally Posted by Mada

ok found a head phones box that was small enough to fit in a 41 quart tub with substrate under it and yet large enough for her to fit into even if a bit tight.

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A bit tight is really what they like. Introduce the hide and see if the snake uses it. If it does, this might work out.

For what it's worth - all my snakes are happily chomping down on d/f frozen rodents so it's clearly possible . They all feed on a weekly basis apart from 3 of the 6 Royal pythons ( Balls ) who get offered the food every 10 to 14 days . Some see to prefer a bit longer in between feeds , they don't feed every Wednesday at 6pm in the wild after all ..

I've seen reports of some people mixing things up big- time so they feed mice or rats or chicks etc and varying from 7 to 10 to 14 and anywhere in between , that also seems to work for some snakes .

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

all my snakes are happily chomping down on d/f frozen rodents so it's clearly possible

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I'm glad all your snakes eat F/T. However, that does not make it "clearly possible" for every Ball/Royal out there. I had one that would have starved to death before eating something that he "clearly" never saw as a food item. Nothing is ever 100%.

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Originally Posted by Slim

I'm glad all your snakes eat F/T. However, that does not make it "clearly possible" for every Ball/Royal out there. I had one that would have starved to death before eating something that he "clearly" never saw as a food item. Nothing is ever 100%.

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I wouldn't class 'clearly possible' as 100% to be honest .

That said - over the years I've kept around 70 snakes of all types and never, ever , had to feed LIVE - which oddly enough IS 100% :)

Oh good you're here for your monthly anti live feeding rants. Maybe you can just not do that on this thread and cause one hundred extra posts to be put up and then a moderator having to tell everyone to settle down or move the thread?

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

which oddly enough IS 100% :)

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SMH... Guess I have to go ahead state the obvious. You don't own 100% of the snakes in captivity. I'm happy for your success rate, but what's that have to do with all the snakes you don't own?

Do I think most all BPs can be switched over to F/T? Yes I do, however, I know better than to think they all can.

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Originally Posted by SKO

Oh good you're here for your monthly anti live feeding rants. Maybe you can just not do that on this thread and cause one hundred extra posts to be put up and then a moderator having to tell everyone to settle down or move the thread?

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Mate .. You're too sensitive for some reason , I haven't said anything against live feeding . Just read my last few posts . As I said how anyone can change my ' clearly possible ' into meaning 100% I do not know .

I do know that this forum is getting harder and harder to put an opinion across . One word against the tide and the whole schoolyard jumps on you .

It's a forum , guys .. What happened to the land of freedom ??

I'm not your mate and I'm not too sensitive. We go through this every month when you hijack threads with an obvious intent dude.

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Originally Posted by Slim

SMH... Guess I have to go ahead state the obvious. You don't own 100% of the snakes in captivity. I'm happy for your success rate, but what's that have to do with all the snakes you don't own?

Do I think most all BPs can be switched over to F/T? Yes I do, however, I know better than to think they all can.

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The part you highlighted was a little attempt at humour ( wasted clearly ) - just a little afterthought

Again though .. I said ' it was clearly POSSIBLE ' I never said it WAS 100% possible ... That was the other guy misquoting me .

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

( wasted clearly )

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Clearly... :colbert2:

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Originally Posted by SKO

I'm not your mate and I'm not too sensitive. We go through this every month when you hijack threads with an obvious intent dude.

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It looks as though you're either holding a grudge against me for some reason then .. I never do that and I wasn't even aware we'd crossed swords previously either .

Incidentally there's at least two other people commented today about the aggressive attitude shown to others in this forum .

I don't like hassle or falling out and if you check my other posts I try and be pleasant , helpful and I post complimentary comments about other peoples snakes and setups .

I'm a real nice guy !

Welcome to the Internet. It's not a safe space covered in pillows and puppies. You know why you don't remember me? Because every time you do this, multiple people end up getting on your case too. It's one thing to be nice and helpful but it's another thing to have a holier than thou attitude. Maybe you do mean well but the way you consistently come off every post you write about a topic like this gets people riled up, not just me. How have you not noticed that before?

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Originally Posted by Slim

Clearly... :colbert2:

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Super clear. Invisible even

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Originally Posted by SKO

Welcome to the Internet. It's not a safe space covered in pillows and puppies. You know why you don't remember me? Because every time you do this, multiple people end up getting on your case too. It's one thing to be nice and helpful but it's another thing to have a holier than thou attitude. Maybe you do mean well but the way you consistently come off every post you write about a topic like this gets people riled up, not just me. How have you not noticed that before?

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What on earth did you see in my post that was ' holier than thou ?'

I'm getting worried about even posting any suggestions or sharing experiences .

Gawd help me if I ever get a snake problem and have to air it in here .
I dread to think of the responses I'd receive off some people .

I really can't see why we can't just each have their own view on ' some ' things without things getting nasty or personal

Anyways .. I've no hard feelings to anyone ..
I'll try and be more careful in future ..

Don't get me wrong, if you posted a problem and I thought I could help you, I would, regardless of how many times we've "debated". But there's having an opinion and then there's having an opinion and interjecting it at every chance, regardless of what the original post was about. I'm not talking about only this thread but every thread I've seen you do it on. Sweet 8 pound 6 ounce baby chessus, we get you are against feeding live but you can help people without having to make that very apparent every single time.

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Originally Posted by SKO

Don't get me wrong, if you posted a problem and I thought I could help you, I would, regardless of how many times we've "debated". But there's having an opinion and then there's having an opinion and interjecting it at every chance, regardless of what the original post was about. I'm not talking about only this thread but every thread I've seen you do it on. Sweet 8 pound 6 ounce baby chessus, we get you are against feeding live but you can help people without having to make that very apparent every single time.

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Yeah but it's MY view on that particular subject - we just don't feed LIVE over here as it's frowned upon .

I made a point of not verb mentioning live feeding this time ...I thought .



Plus it's a public forum . Surely it's better to show both sides of every issue and let everyone make their own mind up .

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Yeah but it's MY view on that particular subject - we just don't feed LIVE over here as it's frowned upon .

I made a point of not verb mentioning live feeding this time ...I thought .



Plus it's a public forum . Surely it's better to show both sides of every issue and let everyone make their own mind up .

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I've no idea what VERB should have read in that post - just a daft typo :)

This thread is going nowhere now and the bickering really needs to stop.