Het PieBald - Markings?

I was wondering if anyone can tell me what "Het Piebald - Markings" are -
Also does anyone have a picture of the markings?
Thanks! :eek:

I may be mistaken, but I believe there is no such thing as het piebald markings. Piebald is a recessive trait, so it only shows up in a homozygous animal. The heterozygous animal would show no signs so it would look like a normal.

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Originally Posted by Leon

I was wondering if anyone can tell me what "Het Piebald - Markings" are -
Also does anyone have a picture of the markings?
Thanks! :eek:

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i 've heard that too. i personally never worked with pieds.....not yet anyway.......maybe peter kahl willhave somethind on his site. who knows?

found this link might be worth keeping an eye on

http://www.simonereptiles.com/piedhetmarkers

cool find!

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Originally Posted by Leon

I was wondering if anyone can tell me what "Het Piebald - Markings" are -

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Many people look for "markers" in possible het animals of all morphs to try and better their odds of actually getting a het.

Some people believe that the het pied markers are a way of bettering your odds when selecting 50% and 66% possible het pieds.

A couple of things that people don't tell you are;

1. not every het pied has the marker, as a matter of fact, many don't.
2. animals that do have the marker may end up not being het pieds. many many normals carry the same type of marker.
3. no one has actually done any type of research to determine the reliability of the marker pieds. there are "good feels" and "guesses", but no one can quote you any kind of statistic about the reliabilty of markers.

Markers or not, if you breed a het pied to non pied or non het pied, each baby has a 50% chance of being a het.

With the number of completely normal hatchlings that are produced/imported each year with the marker, be careful of people that are trying to sell you possible het pieds based on the presence of "a marker". Always check the persons reputation and references and make sure your buying a quality animal!

Hope this helps.

-adam

Good point about checking the references. One site to research a potential seller is http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...php?forumid=13 I think you will need to sign up before you will get the search option but I don't think you have to pay unless you want to post messages.

The quotes I've seen about percentages of het pieds that are visibly different are one posted directly by Corey Woods and another 2nd hand by a customer of Peter Kahl's as to what Peter supposedly told him. These quotes indicated that 70 - 80% of the hets had these markers. I don't know how scientifically they arrived at these numbers or in the case of the 2nd hand report if that is even what Peter actually said but both of these breeders have at least a fair amount of pied experience (a considerable understatement with Mr. Kahl).

I believe that there should be many many more imported ch het pieds than imported homozygous pieds but even so the rate of true het pied imports is probably low enough and the rate of good non het look-alikes high enough to make the marker not very accurate with imported animals (or any animals not known to be from a pied line). I've not yet heard of a well markered import being proven not het pied but the general assumption that they aren't het pied just because they have the marker is probably a pretty good guess. And of course there are also the 20 - 30% of the time that the marker is not seen in for sure hets and the chance that whatever is causing the marker in presumed non hets could cause it in a possible het clutch making a markered non het.

So, the marker isn't a perfect system but with the high reported rate of it in cb known het pieds there sure seems to be a strong tendency for het pieds to have the belly mark and it can be a useful tool when selecting from among possible hets from a reliable source. It greatly complicates marketing of possible hets and doesn't follow the nice and clean textbook differentiation between recessive and co-dominant but we don't get to pick how the genetics actually work, only try and figure them out.

Interesting. Is there a possibility that the markers are just a co-dom gene that are following the Pie gene?

Can anyone tell me how the "markerings" look -
And maybe share a picture of them?

:confused:

I bought this animal as a 100% het pied male and it was produced by Pete Kahl It was not advertised as having the " marker trait " but it does indeed
http://www.chondrosunlimited.com/Pho...etpiedtail.JPG

Robert, can you describe the "Marking Traits"
Also, can you hopefully share a picture of it?
Thanks.

He did share a picture of it. The "marker traits" are a clean belly with a thick, dark border on both sides.

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Interesting. Is there a possibility that the markers are just a co-dom gene that are following the Pie gene?

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It's not likely due to the frequency of het pied clutches with no markers at all present.

-adam

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

... not very accurate ...

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Good point Randy ... you da man!

Buying possible het pieds (with or without markers) from a reputable breeder gives you a much better shot than buying "markers" from someone shady.

Remember, you get what you pay for!! :D

-adam

Gorgeous snake Robert -
Thanks Marla for telling me -
It loaded REALLY slowly for me, and I have dsl. :eek:

So Adam, are you thinking it's the pied gene it's self causing the marker then? Hard to nail down as the frequency of markered het pieds seems too high to be co-incidence but the low frequency of unmarkered hets is still too high to ignore.

To me the marker just looks so much like the start of pied creeping up from the belly that I suspect it’s the pied gene causing it but those pesky unmarkered hets keep it from being fully co-dominant.

Actually, I feel that the marker is a pattern anomaly that can be present in all ball pythons much like banding, blushing, faded heads, and high white outlines around the brown saddles.

About 70% of the het and possible het albinos that I produce each year have the "het pied marker" .... 50% of the 40 ch females that I bought last year also have the "het pied marker" … And last year I produced a number of het caramels that had the marker as well.

From my experience, it seems like it is something that can possibly be bred for even without the presence of pied genetics.

It seems like every couple of years there is some type of “marker” rumor circulated about a given morph … at one time it was albinos, then it was hypos, then axanthics, now it seems to be pieds and clowns …. But no one has ever said .. “I’ve bred x number of animals with and x without and here are my results” …. It’s always “well, it seems like x% or I think it is x” ….. I’m just having a hard time buying it and probably won’t until I see it breed true with my own eyes.

-adam

So where you selecting for the marker in the ch? I've seen nowhere near that rate of what I consider the marker in any group other than possible het pieds. Maybe you are defining the marker looser than what I am. Are the edges solid and strait and well separated (close to 3 full white scales between)?

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

So where you selecting for the marker in the ch?

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Nope, that's how they were shipped to me.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

Maybe you are defining the marker looser than what I am. Are the edges solid and strait and well separated (close to 3 full white scales between)?

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Yes, I know what "the marker" looks like. Pete is right up the road from me. Perhaps you are not privy to a large enough sample of ball pythons to see how common it can be?

-adam

The few hundred I've looked at here could be well picked over for the mark by they time I see them. However that would beg the question as to why someone is bothering. Would you go as far as to say that known het pieds don't have a bias over non het pieds toward having the marker? If there is any significant tendency for het pieds to have the marker more than non hets, then what's up with the marker and the pied gene?

Sorry fot this bump..


But I wanna hear your comment on this..

I have a 100% het pair from a well known english breeder, he told me that all the hatchlings had this tail mark. A sort of ringer sign.
Is this just a sign of possible ringer animals (ringer + het. piebald) or can it be a sign typical for his piebald hatchlings?

Thx!

http://forum.dierenparadijs.be/uploa...1822_thumb.jpg

hard to say for sure, i know that normals have produce ringers too. and some het pieds have produced ringers also. i just focus on them being 100% hets and not worry about markers, 100% is a 100% and 50% is 50% markers or not. it is cool to have hets that are ringers too, a bonus!


vaughn

A good number of pieds tend to consistently produce ringer offspring. Although it is uncommon for het pieds to produce them.

Godd luck with your pair!

-adam

One of the few things I've learned along my admittedly short road of ball python ownership is this...nothing is ever for certain....genetics are always to some degree a crap shoot and if you want a shortcut...buy a map! LOL

For us, the best way to a visible morph will always be to buy from a highly reputable breeder that provides excellent documentation. After that it's up to the snakes, the odds and a fair bit of finger crossing.


~~Jo~~

Ok thanks!

"A good number of pieds tend to consistently produce ringer offspring. Although it is uncommon for het pieds to produce them."

Adam, are you saying that 100% het pied X normal produces ringers at less than half the rate of homozygous pied X normal? Do you have a genetic theory as to why that would happen?

I would think that if het pieds tended to be ringers it wouldn't mater if it was a het pied from a het X normal or a het pied from a homozygous pied X normal. Of course het pied X normal only produces on average 50% hets so whatever the percentage of het pieds that are ringers even if it stayed the same you would only expect half as many from het X normal as homozygous X normal.

We are talking about male homozygous pied here, right? I could see maybe the egg producing environment in a homozygous pied female being different than a heterozygous one. But if we are talking about crosses with normal females then the male's contribution should be almost entirely genetic (maybe the health of the sperm could have some effect).

Or are you talking about heterozygous pied females tending to produce more than twice as many ringer hets when bred to homozygous males than when bred to heterozygous males? If that's the case, maybe some of the ringers are really low white homozygous pieds. I’ve seen for a for sure just het pied that looked like a low white one (messed up dorsal and all) so maybe the other extreme could happen where some homozygous pieds look like hets. Or you could argue that a 2nd ringer gene is more likely in a homozygous pied than a heterozygous one I suppose.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

Adam, are you saying that 100% het pied X normal produces ringers at less than half the rate of homozygous pied X normal? Do you have a genetic theory as to why that would happen?

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If he didnt have a theory he would not of posted it ..

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

I would think that

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Maybe you do this to much!!

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

"A good number of pieds tend to consistently produce ringer offspring. Although it is uncommon for het pieds to produce them."

Adam, are you saying that 100% het pied X normal produces ringers at less than half the rate of homozygous pied X normal? Do you have a genetic theory as to why that would happen?

I would think that if het pieds tended to be ringers it wouldn't mater if it was a het pied from a het X normal or a het pied from a homozygous pied X normal. Of course het pied X normal only produces on average 50% hets so whatever the percentage of het pieds that are ringers even if it stayed the same you would only expect half as many from het X normal as homozygous X normal.

We are talking about male homozygous pied here, right? I could see maybe the egg producing environment in a homozygous pied female being different than a heterozygous one. But if we are talking about crosses with normal females then the male's contribution should be almost entirely genetic (maybe the health of the sperm could have some effect).

Or are you talking about heterozygous pied females tending to produce more than twice as many ringer hets when bred to homozygous males than when bred to heterozygous males? If that's the case, maybe some of the ringers are really low white homozygous pieds. I’ve seen for a for sure just het pied that looked like a low white one (messed up dorsal and all) so maybe the other extreme could happen where some homozygous pieds look like hets. Or you could argue that a 2nd ringer gene is more likely in a homozygous pied than a heterozygous one I suppose.

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Randy, I'm saying ...

"A good number of pieds tend to consistently produce ringer offspring.
Although it is uncommon for het pieds to produce them."

;)

-adam

JASBALLS, there would be nothing wrong with Adam posting an observation that pieds tend to throw a disproportionately high rate of ringers without having a theory as to why. If you don't want to think about why either that is your prerogative.

Adam, your reply isn't helpful. I think your observations of a high rates of ringered het pieds from homozygous pieds is important and relevant to the piebald het marker discussion (RDR calls the marker a ringer belly). As I pointed out it might make a difference if we are talking about Pied male X normal female, Pied male X het pied female, or even the unlikely combination of normal for pied or het pied male X pied female. Another important question is whether the higher rate of ringers from homozygous pieds exceeds the higher rate of het pieds compared to breedings with only het pieds or het X normal. I've read enough of your posts to be confident in my presumption that you will understand each of these concepts and could contribute useful information if you wanted to. Heck, I even suspect JASBALLS could start thinking about this and help us figure it out.

Captain Randy,

You wouldn't actually want me to be helpful would you Randy? I mean, you're the one that said I am disingenuous? Why would I want to share what I know with you? So that you can question my motives some more?

LMAO ... funny.

-adam

I would very much like you to be helpful. Of course I'm going to question everything anyone posts. If you are posting accurate information it isn't as likely to be challenged and should be easier to defend.

To get back to the topic..... Het pied markings may well just be a locality thing... Balls are not seperated into localities where they come from however ...... based on what I have seen hatching in West Africa..... there are some regions that definately produce a higher percentage of certain types of aberations...


From some regions you get the standard normal ball python patern with very few aberations and almost no morphs and then from other regions you see a high percentage of the babies with all kinds of different aberations. With practice a trained eye can even pick out the origin of a batch.

So "pied marker" may just be an undefined inheritable trait that is also prevalent where Pied genes freely float around in the wild populations and so occasionally the het pieds also display the so called het pied trait

Great post guys Here is a 100%het pied from Mark at www.ballpython.ca that I just picked up not long ago
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y8/...edpic1copy.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y8/...etpiedpic2.jpg
with full pictor ID
and a 66%het female that dos not have the same belly pattern as the male
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y8/...dpic11copy.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y8/...dpic21copy.jpg
I am hoping to pick up ether a pied female or a 100%het next year if all gos well :sunny: :) :sunny:Ps here is his pappers
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y8/...iedspapers.jpg

odd... why would you post your pics in a two year old thread???

Because hes a proud new daddy and found a place to post his pictures. ;)

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

odd... why would you post your pics in a two year old thread???

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Handsome boy. Old threads can be benefitial too. :D

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

odd... why would you post your pics in a two year old thread???

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neaver looked at the date and how much has chaned in the BP world over the last two years ?? leaps and bounds

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Originally Posted by Entropy

Handsome boy. Old threads can be benefitial too. :D

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I agree. It's nice reading over these "historical? threads and sometimes you dont always find them with a search.

So does anyone have any new data regarding the likelihood of ringerism in pied projects and if it's directly linked to being heterozygous pied?

The only ringer I've produced also had the pied belly markings and was out of a 50% chance het pied with the belly markings but my sample is small and with only possible hets. Perhaps in the last two years enough small breeders are working with homozygous pieds to provide some new perspective on the sporadic het pied indicator debate.

i think pete would have the most data on pied projects! and the years to make it noteworthy.



vaughn

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

odd... why would you post your pics in a two year old thread???

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Probaby to Keep it alive and share his new purchases...

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...hetpied1RZ.jpg
Heres a pic of one of my het pied's belly

Heres a freak

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...irlessD1RZ.jpg

oh damn, that thing is ugly! don't you have a boa or something that could take care of that thing? :D



vaughn

100% Normal Ball Python! LOL

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l1...edmarkings.jpg

Here is a great website with info from Jon at Next World Exotics. He doesn't feel markers are definitive but explains them. Hope this helps.

http://www.nextworldexotics.com/hghpm.htm


Larry that is one ugly creature! Whenever I think I'm having a bad day I need to look at that pic. LOL

Steven, if it's a female have you bred it to a het pied yet just to be sure it's normal?

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Originally Posted by Larry Suttles

Heres a freak

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...irlessD1RZ.jpg

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:puke2: :bleh: That guy even knows he's ugly; look at his expression! :8: But.. he's cute in one of the godawful unholy so-ugly-it's-cute ways.