Dog Breeding Ethics

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Originally Posted by MarkS

(I don't like bulldogs either, I think they have so many health problems that I don't understand why anyone would intentionally produce them. Yet, they command high prices and have a large following. :confuzd:)

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Sorry to be that guy but bulldogs have so many problems because they require a special diet and other needs. Bulldogs (English and French) should NOT be neutered or spayed until a year and a half to two years old. If they are fixed earlier their plates in their knees, hips, etc never finish filling in and it leads to over 90% of the hip and knee problems they face. And 99% of owners are brain washed by their vets with no bulldog knowledge to spay/neuter at 6 months and younger. And secondly they need a very high quality diet most people would not consider. They need grain free, single protein, hollistic foods. My Frenchie is on rabbit. Most owners would not spend this much on food. A lot of bulldogs are just naturally allergic to grains, poultry and beef. Sorry, I'm just a proud Frenchie dad [emoji5]

As for snakes I would never purchase a morph with neurological problems. I would purchase others like my 8 Ball who lack duckbill and kinking (duckbill is over exaggerated IMO and it sticks out more from being patternless).


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Originally Posted by 8_Ball

Sorry to be that guy but bulldogs have so many problems because they require a special diet and other needs. Bulldogs (English and French) should NOT be neutered or spayed until a year and a half to two years old. If they are fixed earlier their plates in their knees, hips, etc never finish filling in and it leads to over 90% of the hip and knee problems they face. And 99% of owners are brain washed by their vets with no bulldog knowledge to spay/neuter at 6 months and younger. And secondly they need a very high quality diet most people would not consider. They need grain free, single protein, hollistic foods. My Frenchie is on rabbit. Most owners would not spend this much on food. A lot of bulldogs are just naturally allergic to grains, poultry and beef. Sorry, I'm just a proud Frenchie dad [emoji5]
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No, bulldogs have so many problems because people keep breeding dogs with health issues. Allergy dogs-shouldn't be bred. Dogs with skin issues-shouldn't be bred. Dogs who can't breed or produce puppies naturally-shouldn't be bred. Dogs who drop dead in the heat-shouldn't be bred. You have to assume on offa.org, the vast majority of the dogs being tested are breeding dogs, over two years old and intact and yet bulldogs are #1 for hip dysplasia at 72% of the breed affected, percent excellent on the other hand .3. People like the look of them, all short muzzled, kinked tail and wrinkly and don't care how it affects the dog to get that appearance.

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Originally Posted by GoingPostal

No, bulldogs have so many problems because people keep breeding dogs with health issues. Allergy dogs-shouldn't be bred. Dogs with skin issues-shouldn't be bred. Dogs who can't breed or produce puppies naturally-shouldn't be bred. Dogs who drop dead in the heat-shouldn't be bred. You have to assume on offa.org, the vast majority of the dogs being tested are breeding dogs, over two years old and intact and yet bulldogs are #1 for hip dysplasia at 72% of the breed affected, percent excellent on the other hand .3. People like the look of them, all short muzzled, kinked tail and wrinkly and don't care how it affects the dog to get that appearance.

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Most Hip dysplasia=being fixed to early. I've read countless veterinarian reports on this. Actually it effects all dogs such as German Shepards too with hip problems and arthritis. We've always owned frenchies and English bulldogs and never had issues. Yes your right don't breed the ones with issues but obviously your going to get that from puppy Mills. Dogs actually aren't supposed to eat most of the stuff you find in foods at pets stores it's all fillers and the protiens are not natural for dogs. It's really not even "allergies" but a reaction to the food. My dog eats rabbit, lamb, and duck and has no problems. Your just making excuses for issues caused by crappy food. It's like humans eating McDonald's daily and expect to have no issues. Labs, German Shepards, Goldens, pugs, and various other dogs are susceptible to cancers and other issues but people always seem to pick on bulldogs.

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Originally Posted by 8_Ball

Most Hip dysplasia=being fixed to early. I've read countless veterinarian reports on this. Actually it effects all dogs such as German Shepards too with hip problems and arthritis. We've always owned frenchies and English bulldogs and never had issues. Yes your right don't breed the ones with issues but obviously your going to get that from puppy Mills. Dogs actually aren't supposed to eat most of the stuff you find in foods at pets stores it's all fillers and the protiens are not natural for dogs. It's really not even "allergies" but a reaction to the food. My dog eats rabbit, lamb, and duck and has no problems. Your just making excuses for issues caused by crappy food. It's like humans eating McDonald's daily and expect to have no issues. Labs, German Shepards, Goldens, pugs, and various other dogs are susceptible to cancers and other issues but people always seem to pick on bulldogs.

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My dogs too eat rabbit, lamb, deer, elk, turkey and buffalo. Because thats what my freezers are full of. We dont purchase prepackaged dog foods, when I thaw meat out for meals for us daily, I do so for our 3 dogs, a german shephard and 2 stafford terriers. I have found that our dogs are much healthier. Nice to see that others are feeding the same way.

I will have to differ on that diet is essential thing.

The vet next door sees a lot of english bulldogs and frenchies(because one client with a English loves the vet and two people working there own frenchies, so people like to go to him) and I don't know of any of them that feed a "hollistic" diet. Most of them feed typical bag food(Science Diet, ick) and only one has a knee issue. Only one english has a skin condition, and that's limited to his nose(weird). On our side, we have one English with poor skin, and I believe 2 that are fine. One English has bum knees, BUT he's elderly too, and I don't know if it's new or if he's always had bum knees.

They do have the snorty flat face issues. The owners can't let them overheat. I saw one recently that had his tail docked because it was deformed in such a way that poo got it when he went poo. Which was bizarre.

None of these dogs are on special diets, although one frenchie only eats one kind of science diet sensitive stomach.

Do these breeds have inherent health issues? Yes. Is it due to early spay/diet? I'm not buying it.

I'm glad your diet/non-spaying works for you and your dogs.

To be honest I love how all dogs look, but I would rather a mixed from the pound then a purebred from a breeder. For example I got two mixed dogs from the shelter six months ago and both were 22$, while the purebreds just like the dogs I got are around 400$!

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Originally Posted by footballpythons

To be honest I love how all dogs look, but I would rather a mixed from the pound then a purebred from a breeder. For example I got two mixed dogs from the shelter six months ago and both were 22$, while the purebreds just like the dogs I got are around 400$!

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Sometimes, purebred dogs are solely bred for looks but often the goal is for specific traits. Buying a purebred dog ensures you get these breed specific traits. My Doberman passed last year. I specifically selected this breed, and her from among 15 breeders, due to the security traits and living in the city with a smaller property.

Now I live on 30 acres with forest trails and predators. I selected German Shepherds because their breed traits fit my needs better. They hone in on any person, no matter how far away, while ignoring distant barking dogs. They would work together to defend against bear or coyotes but don't obsess about small game. I have also trained them to track my children by name. This is a small list of breed specific traits. There are also things they are not as good for though, such as hunting or serious tracking (like bloodhound work).

We also have a hound dog mix we rescued from the pound. She can't do anything of these things. That's okay because that's not what she was bred for. She does do some things the GSDs won't though that fit her mixed hound breeds. I've seen her wait patiently in front of a mouse hole for hours, completely motionless, before successfully catching the mouse. I've called her, seen her look right me, and watched a live bird fly right out of her mouth. If we have a small animal problem, my money is on her over the GSDs.

If you just want a dog, mixed breeds from the pound make excellent companions. Purebred working group dogs have traits that can meet specific needs.

I don't know if you have ever bred dogs, but i showed and bred bloodhounds for almost 20 years till i retired a few years ago. Hip displasure has very little to do with spaying or neutering. It has a lot to do with inheritence. That is why every single dog i bred was x-rayed for hips , elbows, and patellas, The x-rays were submitted to the O.F.A (orthopedic foundation for animals). I also had hearts cleared by a board certified cardiac Vet. Most reputable breeders have this done. There are many breeds that have allergies, and the biggest allergy is to beef, so none of my dogs ate any foods with beef. I fed lamb, duck, or chicken based foods. I know many bulldog breeders, one of the largest bulldog clubs is located here on long island. The biggest problem with breeding this dog, is the fact that without help you can lose many of the pups because of the size of the heads, also umbilical hernias are common, because the mother will pull the cord when she releases the pup from the after birth. That is why most breeders choose to have a c-section done to make sure all pups survive. I love bulldogs, butto breed them properly is a lot of effort and expense. That is why the bulldog pups go for 1500-2000 dollars. It takes a lot of love and dedication to a breed to make sure this noble and historic breed stays around.

I don't have any experience breeding dogs but my friend breeds Hamiltonstovares. I asked her about spaying/neutering dogs and she also agrees that you should allow a dog to finish growing before you spay/neuter. She says early spay/neutering can cause health issues. I think early spay/neuter is pushed by vets and rescues because of pet overpopulation. So many pets get loose and breed or you get those dumb parents that want to let their children "witness the miracle of life" by breeding their dogs. Then you get backyard breeders that say "I have a purebred dog. I'm going to breed it since its so cute and my friend has one of the opposite sex. We'll sell the babies for a few hundred". Vets and rescues want to help curb this and so they encourage early spay/neuter.

I have a problem with dog breeds that have health issues due to their looks. This is directed toward short-snouted dogs and other malformations that for some reason people think is cute. Breeds like this should be discouraged.

Well I have to chime in a bit. I worked for a vet 15 years ago and I did see a lot of English bulls get put down for hip issues, but I do like the look of the breed. But if you really want a cool dog go with a german shorthair pointer. They are by far the smartest dogs I have owned, I have two right now. They are great with kids and family, will protect anything when needed, and will hunt with me all day if I choose to run them that long. Training these things to hunt and hold a point can be done by just about anyone, as my 10 year old trained one if my dogs when I was working a second job. Now, thanks to these awesome dogs, my second job is running guided upland hunts with them. I get so much joy out of seeing a pointer running at full speed and then stop on a dime at a hard point.

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My dog is perfectly happy and healthy and has no breathing/snorting issues. My fiance's pug has these issues and she is very tiny and slim at 16 lbs and so does my mom's shi-tzu. Early spay and neuter DOES effect health. If you ever see dogs who get fixed early they all have long, lanky legs from their growth plates in their legs not forming properly and male dogs will not develop larger heads and structure. A quick Google search from vets who are actually current in medicine and knowledgeable would know this! I had one vet tell me to neuter at 5 months old and I never went back in there again. She was obviously not knowledgeable in certain dog breeds and only pushed unnecessary surgeries and SCIENCE DIET which is corn meal and road kill. I'm sorry but for some people to be criticising dog breeds we as snake keepers inbreed snakes and produce snakes with neurological problems daily in our hobby. I promise you if you feed your dog holistic foods and buy from a good breeder there will be less issues. Beef and chicken trigger allergies in most dog breeds not just bullies and dogs cannot stay on the same protien either for too long. All my friends with frenchies who has skin problems switched to duck, rabbit, pheasant, bison, etc have all cleared up 100%. If you read Purina, Iams, science Diet, and all the other common dog foods the first ingredients are corn meal, animal by product, fillers, and grains. My dog foods first ingredients are whole duck, whole rabbit, spinach, blueberries, lentils, and other fruits and veggies.


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And grains are VERY bad and not at all natural in a dogs diet that's why most breeds have no tolerance for grains even though they are in 90% of the foods in chain pet stores as cheap fillers.


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If you really have allergy problems in either your dog or cat try the new foods that contain pumpkin or avacado oil. They really work, and for older dogs are really easy on the digestive tract. I use the one with pumpkin for my 11 year old tibetan spaniel, and the avacado oil food for one of my cats who is allergic to a lot of foods. Grains are not ba, its the type of grains used that are bad. In the wild it has been known for years that wild dogs eat the inners first of grazing animals, so yes they get grain but its the green type like grasses not corn and rice, so if a dog food has grains make sure its the grassy or leafy type then its a balenced food. All meat is not a balenced food. On the subject of dog breeders, how about the pet stores selling mutts as designer breeds, and the stupid people paying up to 2000 for a cockerpoo, or a labradoodle. I have seen dozens of these breeds and none look anything alike. they are not new breeds just mixes that are being offered to the public as new designer breeds. In order to create a new breed there must be some standard and control, but when you try to explain this to people they just can't believe they were taken buy their local pet store. Then people tell you well i have papers for them, but when you look at the papers it says that the pup is registered with the national pet registry, and they will register any breed as a pet, not nessacerilya a purebred. Every dog makes a wonderful pet and every dog deserves a loving home, but its the bilking of the public i find offencive.

Dog breeding... if you don't have a legit AKC breeder of merit backed bloodline and you don't have hips and heart done at least you should not be breeding period. If you breed doodles and sell them for $thousands you should be ashamed of yourself.

And all :cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r:es should be allowed to go through at least one heat cycle, males should not be neutered at all or only after 2 years if you absolutely have to.

Having had backyard bred dogs or rescues all my life and then getting into the show dog world... it is night and day. Yes, there are some breeders and owners who are stuck up and snobbish about their purebreds. The majority are not. There can be perfectly happy and healthy mutts or rescues or whatever. But... I personally feel much better buying from a responsible breeder who has all health checks done and a legit pedigree with champion/grand champion AKC dogs going back generations. Also make sure you can meet at LEAST the mother of the puppy you are buying or both parents if you can. Temperment is a big deal and dogs that are shy or scared or fearful should not be bred. I have an AKC Champion Ibizan hound and AKC Champion Irish Wolfhound (who is on his way to a Grand). Both of those I can go back almost 40 years, they all have AKC champions in their lines, the Ibizan Hound has zero health issues going back generations and should live to be 15-16 years old if nothing happens to him. Wolfhounds general life expectancy is 7 years. However, good breeders are trying to extend that and our Wolfhound's line pushes 9-10 years. Also any time there is an issue or question, the breeder is there to help and we have become good friends with them as well. I really hope anyone looking for a puppy that is not set on "rescue or gtfo" will hit up the AKC breeder of Merit registry and find a good breeder of the dog you are looking for and get in touch.

We now have a German Shepherd puppy we are getting ready to start showing. All hips/eyes/heart checks from both parents came back good or excellent. She is smart as hell, happy, zero signs of any future hip issues and she is fast as hell to boot. We have a rescue shepherd that is only 3 years old and this year old puppy just blows by her like she was standing still. I love them both and they both get the same care, same diet and same playtime but its really a stark contrast between the rescue badly bred one and the one that is a product of many many years of breeding only the best. Our show shepherd's father recently won Best of Opposite Sex at the national German Shepherd specialty and the mother is a finished grand champion as well.

At the end of this rant... You will spend WAY more in vet bills for a $500 CL puppy or whatever than you will with a $1500-$2k purebred from a Breeder of Merit so if you are one of those ppl who is like "why would I pay $2k for a dog when I can get one for way less from JimBob at work?". Like everything in life... you get what you pay for. As this is a snake forum, would you rather have a snake from Petco or from one of the top notch herp breeders? Your choice.

Nice rant. Absolutely untrue that you can't get stellar GSDs that cost under a thousand. People don't need to pay several months rent or mortgage for a good quality GSD that can be healthy, obedient, and loyal to death. Kennels are poor places to purchase family dogs whether it's 200 or 2k. The parents, both parents, need to live in the house and the puppies whelped in the house around people.

Champion dogs are nice but don't really mean anything except to others who show. I prefer real dogs for real people. No my GSDs don't look pretty walking in a circle in some air conditioned building. They are working dogs with actual responsibilities on a 30 acre farm. Their ability to demonstrate advanced commands, defend from a multitude of predators, be loyal to the bone, be in perfect health, and have excellent temperaments is what I and people who want good family dogs care about...not some ridiculous title from walking in a circle. My GSDs have proven to be everything we could hope for in real world conditions and that is what matters. A "champion" dog that has never truly worked a day in its life is unproven and can hardly be considered a true champion outside of the show world fantasy land.

$1600 for a good GSD should not be several months rent unless you are in a $500/mo trailer or something, not to mention getting a cheap one that hasn't had proper health checks on the parents and properly selectively bred is going to cost way WAY more in vet bills than you'd save on the initial purchase price. Not saying that you HAVE to spend that much but I hate that argument. Our show puppy is doing working trials and herding as well, they actually really should be able to or they are not legit shepherds so I agree there. Actually most GSDs that show also compete in trials as its kind a of big deal for a GSD. As far as conformation showing being a fantasy... Not really, not when conformation, temperment, movement and overall reflection on the breed standard is all what the dog is going up against. I have a rescue shepherd and the overall condition/health of the show puppy is ridiculously better from bone structure, hips, skin condition, joints and just overall agility and quickness as well. Both get the same treatment, same food, same love and care and affection as do all our animals.

I'm not trying to say there aren't good dogs you can rescue or you can't wind up with a good dog for not a ton of money. Some breeders do massively overcharge and don't even get me started on the "doodle" breeders who are charging $thousands for mixes. All I am saying is that after having gotten dogs from legit breeders who do all health checks/research on the parents and are not in it to make money, its a much much much better result than getting a dog off CL or from some random backyard breeder.

AKC GSD registered from great lines. Both parents checked out with excellent hips. She is in superb health and is such a beautiful example of the breed. Amazing drive, superb temperment, and insane ease of trainability. She's from a small breeding program that might be called "backyard" in some circles and didn't cost me $1600. By your standards I'd have a cheap, badly bred dog. In contrast, I've seen some crap dogs that people paid a lot of money for. It boils down to doing your research and finding a good, reputable breeder, not the price. Though I do agree that I'd much rather pay more money for a well bred, healthy dog, than take the cheap way out. http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...d50bf1b2fc.jpg

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Again... didn't say you can't get a dog for less than I paid. Not sure why everyone is getting so defensive and putting words in my mouth. I paid for the pick female of the litter for a show prospect and the father is one of the top show GSDs in the country, pet quality is not as much. And yes, agreed that you need to do research I have been agreeing on that from my first post. When I say "backyard" I mean some rando breeding dogs just for profit without any support to the new puppy owners and minimal health/vet checks. Like the Amish that charge $300-$500 for a puppy no questions asked as one example. Obviously not the case with the above dog. If the parents hips checked out and there is no recent history of genetic issues then you for sure got a good dog.

Just be careful to say "AKC registered". Any dog with papers can be AKC registered and that is all it is, a registry. Too often "AKC registered" is used as a selling point. That's like saying you bought a snake from a "ball-pythons.net registered" breeder lol. Generally you want to be looking for an AKC dog with parents that have conformation, herding, coursing etc... (one or more) titles and no recent history of genetic defects in the backgrounds, thats all.

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Originally Posted by ScottyDsntKnow

Again... didn't say you can't get a dog for less than I paid. Not sure why everyone is getting so defensive and putting words in my mouth.

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No one is saying this. What you have been saying is good quality GSDs that are in excellent health only come from breeders who title/show their dogs and charge an absurd amount. And something about smaller breeders who have backyards and don't buy into the showing/titling scam are in it for the money.

I'll say it again, my GSDs are in perfect health and demonstrate every trait and command I could wish. They didn't cost near that and came from what would be considered by some to be "backyard breeders" (aka, family dogs who live inside the home, are not showed, and are loved members of the breeders' family). Why on earth would I pay considerably more when these GSDs are everything my family could ask for?

I'll absolutely concede that many BYBs are horrible set-ups but that does not apply to all. I prefer the term family breeders. You made the comparison earlier to buying ball pythons from Petco vs top notch herp breeders? There are tons of top-knotch bp breeders that would be considered a backyard (or rather basement) breeder. Not everyone is a NERD or BHB.

It is still a supposition that titling translates into real world working abilities. And it may but I'd rather buy from a breeder where the parents actually demonstrate the skill in working conditions where there are external variables at play. My GSDs have stood down a much larger pack of coyotes. They have herded and protected our donkeys (unheard of with donkeys). There is no title for this. They must come from a breeder who selects for these traits even if not show/title focused. As well as training from myself.

My GSDs track our children individually by name and then guard them upon finding them. There might be a tracking title but my GSDs have proven they can do this in uncontrolled conditions and despite numerous enticing distractions.

My point is not that my real-world trained and bred GSDs are better than title/showed ones but rather the notion that affordable and great quality GSDs can't be had for 5 or 600 dollars. To date my dogs have had ZERO health problems so it false that this is always the case that you spend more in vet bills.

ps. Housing costs are relative to your location. Where I live, a nice 2500 sq. foot house on 1/2 acre lot in a decent area can be found for $600/month.

Had a big long post: decided it wasn't worth the effort.

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