spider x spider article

http://www.herpnation.com/2016/01/20...-super-spider/

read artical, tell me if this guy is nutz or if he is right?

About?

Are you asking if the "super" gene defect is the same in both species? Are you asking if a super spider exists? Or did I completely miss your point?

asking if the guy who wrote the article is a wack job or if he is giving out the truth. he is saying that the lungs of super spiders wont develop and that they will always die while in the egg or possibly in the egg while its still in the female and being absorbed. his data seems to not come from ball pythons but another species that has according to him the same gene mutation. I'm just wanting to know if any one knows of any evidence that backs up his clams or is he jumping the gun because he has seen this in another species. while some gene mutations are cross species such as albino does this mean that spider x spider is fatal or is he full of it?

Many spiderXspider clutches do not make it.
Through there are breeders out there that have not had problems too.

Browsing his other articles, many were of contested or unpopular topics. Honestly he struck me as someone posting inflammatory articles to boost his views. What could have been interesting to me, was buried under his assertions and insinuations as to breeders hiding info. Personally, he didn't appeal to me.

While Nick Mutton is rare in the herp trade because he has real scientific training, this piece strikes me more of an opinion based article rather then straight forward fact. If that picture of the alleged super spider is an actual super spider and not just an unfortunate combination with another mutation, then it's the first one I've ever heard of. I'm not saying that he's wrong, but I would have thought that we'd have seen more proof of it by now.

Huh. A browse didn't show me that. Maybe Ill google him and take a closer look. I saw a lot of opinion, with very little data. I would be very interested in a more scientific view and writing. Maybe this was just a blurb?

You only get on "herp nation" as a speaker or writer unless you have some credentials. I really believe his research is fact based and he is well respected as a breeder of most subspecies of carpet pythons. He is known also for the quality of his animals. This is a topic that has quite a bit of controversy depending on who you speak to. Lol.

LOL ty for clearing that up for me :) I did see all the controversy, a whole lot of it. Now Ill have to wade through it to sate the curiosity!

*rolls up sleeves and gets to reading*

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Originally Posted by MarkS

While Nick Mutton is rare in the herp trade because he has real scientific training, this piece strikes me more of an opinion based article rather then straight forward fact. If that picture of the alleged super spider is an actual super spider and not just an unfortunate combination with another mutation, then it's the first one I've ever heard of. I'm not saying that he's wrong, but I would have thought that we'd have seen more proof of it by now.

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pairing was a killer bee to a spider according to the person who originally posted the picture.

I think its a little bit of a stretch to say it is the exact same as the jag, I mean a lot of super jags hatch and poke out the egg, then pass. Super spider seems to not even get to that point most of the time. However they are about as similar as it gets cross species. I think there is more compelling things to mention within ball pythons. You basically breed a spider to any morph known to wobble and it either produces a lethal combination or a severe wobble animal. Some of these wobble animals we known produce lethal supers, champagne and HGW.That combined with the fact the spider seems to be the most afflicted within the heterozygous form. Even without hard proof, what would be the logical thing to assume? Super spider being the most afflicted animal out of all the combos wouldn't be that big of a stretch eh?

I don't think there's a way to say it's the exact same gene in two species, considering no one has mapped the genome completely on either species as far as I have found.

I also don't think that he's proven that the dead hatchling was a super spider, because he cannot show a gene study that shows that hatchling had two copies of the spider gene.

I did have a male spider that threw nothing but spider babies, but that doesn't prove he was a super spider. It proved that I had good odds. There were some dead babies that didn't make it out of the egg, but that doesn't mean that they had two copies of the gene and so died because it was lethal, because he wasn't being bred to a female spider either.

I think he has a theory that could be true, but I know that there's a ton of breeders who have bred spiders together and did not report any abnormal numbers of dead eggs. COULD all those breeders be lying? Sure, but what is the profit in that? They would just not pair spiders in the future, so to get the highest number of viable eggs... which they don't do. Breeders still pair spiders(combos) without qualm. So I doubt that breeders "know" that spider/spider = lethal super spider.

Just applying logics, because I have no fancy degree.

honestly Nick has a clean back ground and i never heard anything bad about him. he is a quality breeder and i was personally on the same opinion on the super spider. I was more oriented about an incapacity to absorb the yolk from the super spider as i already saw fe pictures of those none yet colored babies dying in eggs. As i said in another post some big breeders knows it since a very long time and didn t mention it because it s bad for business. Same as they rarely send pictures of adulte animals because their colors are not as impressive as they were hatchlings.

Some people here on the forum want to see for their self so we will know their results. That s cool because i know they won t hide them. I believe Nick being one of the good guys. It will be interesting to have the opinion of the few "clean breeders": Garrick de meyer, Justin Kobylka, Ben Renick....

i just want to add that i only dissagree with Nick when he mention lethal form of leucism. i think the snakes metabolism is very slowed so they didn t color.

So give Nick the credit he deserves because many on this forum can say that he is one of the most qualify breeder out there if not the one.

I don't like the lack of evidence and the fact that he insists he is correct about the super spider being lethal, despite the lack of evidence. He acts as though his hypothesis is a fact, when in my opinion it is not verified.

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Originally Posted by Galaxygirl

I don't like the lack of evidence and the fact that he insists he is correct about the super spider being lethal, despite the lack of evidence. He acts as though his hypothesis is a fact, when in my opinion it is not verified.

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There are scatter reports of dead eggs or more than expect slugs, a few white snakes hatching, and correlation with other neuro morphs. I wouldn't say that is a lack of evidence, just not concrete evidence.

I just came across this from a friend sharing it on facebook. Admins/moderators remove if not allowed, though I personally feel this should be Stickied to warn people of the lethal super spider. Which, like the article says, many people claim to not exist.

http://www.herpnation.com/2016/01/20...-super-spider/

there is a big chance that if the egg is from spider x spider that it might of just been deformed by random chance. one egg failing to develop with out all the information on the egg and the snake with in during development isn't conclusive as some have stated. but it has me really thinking about my spider girl and what i would do with her off spring. if i even mention the chance of a deformed or lethal combo to her she freaks out and wants out of breeding all together due to use losing our first child last year. the snakes are her babies or snabies as some have called them and she wants nothing but the best of health for them and their young so i am trying to find out all i can about each of our morphs and their potential offspring.

Though it would be nice if some of the big breeders who do breed spider with spider would necropsy any eggs that don't develop that seemed fertile at laying, and tell us what all they see happening. to the breeder's who do thank you as this information can stop some of us who are doing this as a hobby and are passionate about our snakes to the point of obsession from having heartache.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

There are scatter reports of dead eggs or more than expect slugs, a few white snakes hatching, and correlation with other neuro morphs. I wouldn't say that is a lack of evidence, just not concrete evidence.

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could the white be a sign of another set of white snakes who arnt part of the BeL complex? i mean we have seen spider x BeL non supers and no one has mentioned that i have seen that they all have hatchlings that have one or the other gene every time like say a mystic potion would or a mojave lesser would.

another question should all of the "wabble" genes be considered the same complex?

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Originally Posted by Mada

could the white be a sign of another set of white snakes who arnt part of the BeL complex? i mean we have seen spider x BeL non supers and no one has mentioned that i have seen that they all have hatchlings that have one or the other gene every time like say a mystic potion would or a mojave lesser would.

another question should all of the "wabble" genes be considered the same complex?

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Color doesn't develop until late in incubation, I've had plenty of eggs that died before hatching that contained white or very light colored underdeveloped snakes. I remember one time in particular in a super pastel clutch where one of the eggs didn't hatch with the others so I opened it up and it held an almost fully formed white snake (though on close inspection you could detect a little pattern) that doesn't mean that super pastels are lethal or leucistic.

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Originally Posted by Mada

there is a big chance that if the egg is from spider x spider that it might of just been deformed by random chance. one egg failing to develop with out all the information on the egg and the snake with in during development isn't conclusive as some have stated. but it has me really thinking about my spider girl and what i would do with her off spring. if i even mention the chance of a deformed or lethal combo to her she freaks out and wants out of breeding all together due to use losing our first child last year. the snakes are her babies or snabies as some have called them and she wants nothing but the best of health for them and their young so i am trying to find out all i can about each of our morphs and their potential offspring.

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If the potential of less than ideal babies upsets someone that much, breeding is not for them, any morph, any species, even non reptilian. It is part of reproducing nearly anything living. Even if you do everything in your power to prevent it. It's just something you have to accept, you are in control of very little.

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Originally Posted by Mada

another question should all of the "wabble" genes be considered the same complex?

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No, unless proven to be on the same locus. It's hard to do that when many of them aren't viable.

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Originally Posted by Mada

there is a big chance that if the egg is from spider x spider that it might of just been deformed by random chance. one egg failing to develop with out all the information on the egg and the snake with in during development isn't conclusive as some have stated. but it has me really thinking about my spider girl and what i would do with her off spring. if i even mention the chance of a deformed or lethal combo to her she freaks out and wants out of breeding all together due to use losing our first child last year. the snakes are her babies or snabies as some have called them and she wants nothing but the best of health for them and their young so i am trying to find out all i can about each of our morphs and their potential offspring.

Though it would be nice if some of the big breeders who do breed spider with spider would necropsy any eggs that don't develop that seemed fertile at laying, and tell us what all they see happening. to the breeder's who do thank you as this information can stop some of us who are doing this as a hobby and are passionate about our snakes to the point of obsession from having heartache.

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I've talked with some "big breeders" like Rob Starzman who have produced hundreds of clutches (possibly thousands of hatchlings) trying to figure out what's going on with Spider x Spider and his results were inconclusive. He didn't mention producing any dead white babies, an increased slug ratio, or eggs that went bad. Other breeders have been trying to explore Spider x Spider with no unusual results, as well.

thanks for every one's replys, i guess this is still up in the air.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

I don't think there's a way to say it's the exact same gene in two species, considering no one has mapped the genome completely on either species as far as I have found.

I also don't think that he's proven that the dead hatchling was a super spider, because he cannot show a gene study that shows that hatchling had two copies of the spider gene.

I did have a male spider that threw nothing but spider babies, but that doesn't prove he was a super spider. It proved that I had good odds. There were some dead babies that didn't make it out of the egg, but that doesn't mean that they had two copies of the gene and so died because it was lethal, because he wasn't being bred to a female spider either.

I think he has a theory that could be true, but I know that there's a ton of breeders who have bred spiders together and did not report any abnormal numbers of dead eggs. COULD all those breeders be lying? Sure, but what is the profit in that? They would just not pair spiders in the future, so to get the highest number of viable eggs... which they don't do. Breeders still pair spiders(combos) without qualm. So I doubt that breeders "know" that spider/spider = lethal super spider.

Just applying logics, because I have no fancy degree.

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I agree w Wolfy on this one completely.

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Originally Posted by Galaxygirl

I don't like the lack of evidence and the fact that he insists he is correct about the super spider being lethal, despite the lack of evidence. He acts as though his hypothesis is a fact, when in my opinion it is not verified.

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Also agree w this statement.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

I don't think there's a way to say it's the exact same gene in two species, considering no one has mapped the genome completely on either species as far as I have found.

I also don't think that he's proven that the dead hatchling was a super spider, because he cannot show a gene study that shows that hatchling had two copies of the spider gene.

I did have a male spider that threw nothing but spider babies, but that doesn't prove he was a super spider. It proved that I had good odds. There were some dead babies that didn't make it out of the egg, but that doesn't mean that they had two copies of the gene and so died because it was lethal, because he wasn't being bred to a female spider either.

I think he has a theory that could be true, but I know that there's a ton of breeders who have bred spiders together and did not report any abnormal numbers of dead eggs. COULD all those breeders be lying? Sure, but what is the profit in that? They would just not pair spiders in the future, so to get the highest number of viable eggs... which they don't do. Breeders still pair spiders(combos) without qualm. So I doubt that breeders "know" that spider/spider = lethal super spider.

Just applying logics, because I have no fancy degree.

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I agree with the first two paragraphs in the quote.

As for the rest of the quote, has anyone done some statistics on collected data? For example, if a spider x normal mating produces three eggs and all the babies are spiders, it doesn't mean much. The odds of that happening by chance is 0.125 (one in eight). But if that mating produces 13 eggs and all the babies are spiders, the odds are different -- 0.0001 (one in 10000). With that kind of number, I would give serious consideration to the spider being a super spider.

I do not think that the breeders are lying. But they might not have sufficient information to give us the correct conclusion.

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Originally Posted by paulh

I do not think that the breeders are lying. But they might not have sufficient information to give us the correct conclusion.

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I more agree with this, At the very least that info hasn't hit public domain.

Given your vast genetic knowledge I wanted to ask a hypothetical question. Not to say it would be the case at all, but is there a plausible explanation that would account for a non lethal but also non existent homozygous spider given the public knowledge we have currently?

There's an active thread with some responses from breeders that have been breeding Spider x Spider here: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...x-Spider/page2

If anyone wants to see some more discussion on this topic.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

I more agree with this, At the very least that info hasn't hit public domain.

Given your vast genetic knowledge I wanted to ask a hypothetical question. Not to say it would be the case at all, but is there a plausible explanation that would account for a non lethal but also non existent homozygous spider given the public knowledge we have currently?

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is it possible in genetics for the super form to cancel its self out and become heteral? where the two copies of the genes will only copy over once even where both are present? i mean ive never heard of such a thing but in a world where a skin condition could be only thrown in the boys or the girls of a clutch my mind is open to options. there are a lot of things to me as a noobie that seem strange as heck on these genes.

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Originally Posted by Mada

is it possible in genetics for the super form to cancel its self out and become heteral? where the two copies of the genes will only copy over once even where both are present? i mean ive never heard of such a thing but in a world where a skin condition could be only thrown in the boys or the girls of a clutch my mind is open to options. there are a lot of things to me as a noobie that seem strange as heck on these genes.

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That would be due to sex linking. In humans there is either XX or XY and some genetic issues are only carried by the Y chromosome meaning only men can carry it, ect. This isn't a case of sex linking but there is a possibility that there could be a defect during mitosis like the spider gene causing it to not split properly or later when the DNA copies for meiosis. It could also be during DNA crossover. I wish someone would take samples and replicate the process in a lab so we can know for sure Btw my clutch of lesser bee X killer bee has pipped :)

congrats on the clutch and if i win the lottery i plan on putting a good portion towards understanding the workings of our obsession.

Considering the age of this Gene and other genes with known defects that have been around for even less time yet yielded concrete proof of lethality I would theorize that if spider x spider is in fact lethal it is pre-hatching or even pre-incubation. To me there is nothing that would stop me or make me shy away from this beautiful morph.

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Originally Posted by enginee837

Considering the age of this Gene and other genes with known defects that have been around for even less time yet yielded concrete proof of lethality I would theorize that if spider x spider is in fact lethal it is pre-hatching or even pre-incubation. To me there is nothing that would stop me or make me shy away from this beautiful morph.

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I agree. Many people try to make super cinnis despite some babies hatching deformed. Breeding spiders and having some babies not develop enough to even live isn't that bad but it's looked down upon while the former isn't

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Originally Posted by Galaxygirl

I've talked with some "big breeders" like Rob Starzman who have produced hundreds of clutches (possibly thousands of hatchlings) trying to figure out what's going on with Spider x Spider and his results were inconclusive. He didn't mention producing any dead white babies, an increased slug ratio, or eggs that went bad. Other breeders have been trying to explore Spider x Spider with no unusual results, as well.

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Wow! Thousands of hatchlings. I'd love to run some simple statistics on that sort of population.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

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Given your vast genetic knowledge I wanted to ask a hypothetical question. Not to say it would be the case at all, but is there a plausible explanation that would account for a non lethal but also non existent homozygous spider given the public knowledge we have currently?

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I am not aware of any such plausible explanation. Unfortunately, that sort of question falls in one of the many areas of genetics where my knowledge is weak to nil.

so first super spider (if possible) to prove out (as in live to adult hood and breed and show its always all spiders) is worth what? a million dollars? or just $150 (bout double of the standard spiders i see)