One and a half year old snake, 50 grams?

Hello community of experienced snake owners! I have quite the problem that I feel is unique to Pip, my axanthic ball python from petco (first problem right there I know.)

I got him in March of last year and they told me he was hatched a few months before, which makes him atleast a year old by now. Though he only weighs 50 grams, 60 since I took him to the vet a month ago.

Pip never had a problem eating, EVER. I'd feed him one fuzzy per week, and I tried 2 in one week but he wasn't hungry. I, nor he, has ever missed a feed, so I promise I'm not malnourishing him.

His Temps have always been fine, though it took about 2 weeks of tampering to get them right. He's at about 85 hot spot and 75 ambient, though now that winter is setting in, the Temps are fairly cold at night (working on a solution).

I've always been concerned about him being sick since his poops have always been a white liquid with a little tiny turd looking specimen accompanying it..I've had OCD about poor little Pip since I got him. I took him to the doctor once I realized he definitely was not gaining weight and that a hatchling weighs more than he does!

Hes only shed twice since I got him, both times it was super stuck and he was wrinkly and dry as a corpse. I feel so bad. The vet tested him for parasites and it came out negative, however he gave me a dewormer anyway alongside antibiotics. After faithfully injecting him for a month, he's gained 10 grams.

TLDR; 1 year old snake is 55 grams halp.

I'd be more than happy to provide answers to questions, I just need help understanding this problem. Thanks

One question - fuzzy rat or fuzzy mouse?

Yikes, my girl who's just under 9 months old is 519 grams... you're definitely underfeeding him if he's that weight.

As stated above, if you're feeding him fuzzy mice, that is likely a big part of the problem. He should be on hoppers at least. at that weight, I'd give him a mouse hopper every 5 days for about a month, then some small/medium adult mice for a month, then to rat fuzzies or rat pups.

Even underfeeding if he is eating consistently should/wouldn't be 50 grams at a year.
Most of mine are over that out of the egg except the twins.

There has to be some mistake. How long is he? Heck I think when I got Dottie, she was about 90 or 100g and she was about 12" and I think about 3 months old. That was Nov '14. Now she is about 4' and I know blows the scales at over 1000g. haven't weighed her as my scales battery died and I haven't bought a new yet.

Also like mentioned, are you feeding fuzzy mice or rats? A fuzzy mouse is way too small. Dot was eating hopper mice and fuzzy rats every 3 days as a baby.

As for temps, 85F hot spot and 75F ambient is kind of cold. I keep Dot at around 85F ambient with a 90F hotspot. As for bone dry sheds, what is your humidity? They need at minimum 50%. I keep Dot at 50-70% humidity. Buy something like http://www.acurite.com/environments/...red-probe.html for temp and humidity. Cheap and work decently.

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Originally Posted by Pippers

I'd feed him one fuzzy per week, and I tried 2 in one week but he wasn't hungry.
...
His Temps have always been fine, though it took about 2 weeks of tampering to get them right. He's at about 85 hot spot and 75 ambient, though now that winter is setting in, the Temps are fairly cold at night (working on a solution).
...
Hes only shed twice since I got him, both times it was super stuck and he was wrinkly and dry as a corpse. I feel so bad. The vet tested him for parasites and it came out negative, however he gave me a dewormer anyway alongside antibiotics. After faithfully injecting him for a month, he's gained 10 grams.

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First, are you sure that's an accurate weight? Hatchlings are born bigger than 55g.

Second, fuzzy what? Both mice and rat fuzzies are too small, but mice fuzzies are much smaller and would be far more of a setback to this point.

Third, stuck shed and super dry is a sign of bad humidity. You need to get an accurate humidity reading. Try to get the humidity up to around 50% for starters.

Fourth, I would bump the hotspot up at least a couple of degrees. 85 is on the very low end. Mine are only around 87 or 88, but 85 is pushing it.

If the weight is accurate and he's not sick or has parasites, the size is due to major underfeeding. Good news is this can be corrected extremely easily.

Post a photo with a ruler next to him for scale.
Have someone else weigh him on a different scale. Are you sure the "units" are set to grams?

He's always been on fuzzy mice, because he's never grown. He's ALWAYS been 50 grams in weight. My humidity is always above 50% as I always have a damp wash cloth on top of the cage, and a water bowl underneath his "night" light. I also have reflective tape covering most of the screen to keep the heat/humidity in. Both times he tried to shed I sprayed his cage to about 70% but trust me, no amount of humidity would have let him get out of that skin..it was as if his body knew he wasn't growing but also knew it had to shed, so it started anyway. The first time, he got it started on his head but that's it. The second time, nothing (and his condition looked about 75% worse)

When you guys say underfeeding, do you mean not often enough, or too small of food. I have fed him twice in one week, as well as twice in one night, and he became extremely constipated both times (had to take him to the vet).

I also forgot to mention last night when I posted this, that his hemipenes are sticking out of his body..at first I thought they were dingleberries but the vet told me those were his hemipenes, unlike me, he didn't seem shocked to see they were out of his body. I feel so bad for poor pip, and I have thought that I weened out every possibility by giving him the best chance possible.

I am not trying to question what you guys know so I will switch to hoppers immediately, 5 days a week, but in my gut I feel as if there is something larger at work here. Jesus do I hope it's just underfeeding. I'll share some pics of my set up and the little stunted guy.

The "Insert Image via Url" isn't working for me, so I posted screenshots of my pics:
https://gyazo.com/d0e1f49a939b18378e17bbde42e850b0
I have 75 watt bulbs, I may switch to 100 now that I realize he needs more heat, however I worry that 100 may be too hot? There is a UTH under his rock hide, and that's a water bowl on his right side

The container weighs 100.5 empty, 163.0 with him there. And yes, I'm sure it's set to grams.

https://gyazo.com/fc044c705ea7d9e58188b880f6e22ad5

https://gyazo.com/aac9603feddad3049a7ef98f0d9b380b

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...-Post-Pictures

yeah and his junk shouldn't be just hanging out either...

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Originally Posted by Pippers

I also forgot to mention last night when I posted this, that his hemipenes are sticking out of his body..

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How long has it been like that for?

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Originally Posted by Pippers

I am not trying to question what you guys know so I will switch to hoppers immediately, 5 days a week, but in my gut I feel as if there is something larger at work here. Jesus do I hope it's just underfeeding.

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Mouse hopper or rat fuzzy every 3-4 days, not five days a week. He's very thin.

If he was constipated he's likely dehydrated as well as underfed. He looks dehydrated in the pictures as well. Make a humid hide for him since your tank isn't getting the job done. Also offer his f/t feeders wet.

How are you measuring humidity? Those little analog stick-on hygrometers are wildly inaccurate.

His hemipenes have been sticking out for maybe 2 months..it could be longer I'm not sure.

Also, he drinks quite often..I catch him on his water bowl alot. And my only measure of humidity is the wildly inaccurate analog hygrometer.

While there is room for improvement in the husbandry, my guess on the main problem would be something internal. That is just a guess.

Last year, I raised a small meat rabbit that never grew much. I butchered her along with the rest of the litter when they reached weight. Her organs looked normal except for the liver, which had a fatty yellow tumour looking growth over the surface, and also seemed to be bound in shiney white threads.

Sadly, I wouldn't expect your snake to last much longer. A necropsy might give some indication as to what the problem is.

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...116_090539.jpg

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...116_094618.jpg

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...116_091000.jpg

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Originally Posted by distaff

Sadly, I wouldn't expect your snake to last much longer. A necropsy might give some indication as to what the problem is.

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I don't know about that. Pip is a strong one, isn't a surprise he's still chuggin as it is? He's seems completely normal as far as behavior goes, I pick him up and his tongue flicks everywhere, explores everywhere. He acts far from dead to me and I'm not giving up on him.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

Mouse hopper or rat fuzzy every 3-4 days, not five days a week.

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Oops sorry! Meant every 5 days lol

I'm not asking you to give up on him, but the hemipenes out is not a good sign.
Just suggesting that you be emotionally prepared.

True. I thought it may be due to his sexual organs maturing faster than his body was growing, so they had nowhere to go but out. That's my best guess since I couldn't find anything like this on the internet.

What are you using to regulate and measure your heat sources?

He definitely needs to be eating larger Mice. Also when something is hanging out that should be inside for 2 months its not a good sign. Why did you wait that long to have it looked at by a vet? Sounds like you got the old petco/petsmart experience.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

What are you using to regulate and measure your heat sources?

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A petco temperature reader on the right wall of the cage (cool side during the day and hotspot during the night)
A zilla humidity and temperature gauge in the center
A temperature gauge strip on the left wall of the cage as well as on the right.

I'm not using anything to regulate them, money is tight at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Yodawagon

He definitely needs to be eating larger Mice.

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I've known forever that mice size needs to scale with his size. Yes he SHOULD be eating bigger mice at his age but his body size is that of a hatchling.

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Originally Posted by Pippers

A petco temperature reader on the right wall of the cage (cool side during the day and hotspot during the night)
A zilla humidity and temperature gauge in the center
A temperature gauge strip on the left wall of the cage as well as on the right.

I'm not using anything to regulate them, money is tight at the moment.

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First off, unplug your heat mat now. You are probably cooking him when he is on it.
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h1...pszdz9tb8r.jpg
This was after about 10 minutes or less of running unregulated.

Second your humidity is probably no where what you think it is.
All those gauges you have in there are only giving you ambient temperatures, you have nothing telling you what the surface of your hot side is.
Husbandry is 99% of the problem with problem reptiles.
You might be able to save him if you correct these issues.

Trust me I know about tight money. I have been unemployed for almost 2 month and my wifes check covers all of our bills, debt and animal needs.

You can get a lamp dimmer at Lowes or HomeDepot for less than $10
You can get a thermostat (hydrofarm) for $30 from Amazon or check with your local garden centers.
A Sterilite tub is $5 or less from Walmart
You already have paper towels and water bowls....
Don't spend so much on what it looks like, spend on doing it right for them. :gj:

and you can also get a Non Contact thermometer for less than $30 from Lowes, Home Depot or Reptile Basics.

Not to question your wisdom but, why would I need a lamp dimmer? My temps aren't hot enough, wouldn't that just escalate the problem?

And you are also suggesting dumping the tank and just using a sterilite tub? I've seen those everywhere, been thinking about it. Though I feel like he enjoys the comfort of his bedding and furniture, or is that just me.

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Originally Posted by Pippers

Not to question your wisdom but, why would I need a lamp dimmer? My temps aren't hot enough, wouldn't that just escalate the problem?

And you are also suggesting dumping the tank and just using a sterilite tub? I've seen those everywhere, been thinking about it. Though I feel like he enjoys the comfort of his bedding and furniture, or is that just me.

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What is the surface temperature of the glass where your heatmat is?

And yes, sell the tank on craigslist or one of your local facebook groups to offset the costs of changing.

I'm sorry to say but I'm not quite sure, I don't have a means of finding out. Though I unplugged it.

I'm not sure how I will keep the temps and humidity up in a sterilite tub, there's no where to put any of the utilities. I live in the northeast and it gets very cold so I feel like the tank is the best option for customizing the conditions.

A lamp dimmer would give you a poor mans way of regulating the temperature of the mat BUT you still need a way to check the temperature.

Obviously there's a slight deficiency in his conditions but do you think this could be the cause for no weight gain whatsoever since birth? Or is it indeed underfeeding

With nothing found in the fecal I would think about getting blood work done just to see if there is something else going on.
I would hate to say its just underfeeding and lack of hydration but its not looking good.

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Originally Posted by Pippers

Obviously there's a slight deficiency in his conditions but do you think this could be the cause for no weight gain whatsoever since birth? Or is it indeed underfeeding

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Slight deficiency? You have a 55 gram 1+ year old ball python that's never had a good shed and has had prolapsed hemipenes for 2 months. That in itself screams that he needs to be cared for differently.

Regardless of the food issue, getting control of your husbandry is the low hanging fruit that you can (and should) correct immediately. There could be other issues, but right now you can only control what is in your control. Then you can move on to other things.

Pets are a great responsability so my post might not be popular and YOU might not like it but it will honest.

Based on everything I read (from husbandry to a 2 months old prolapse) as well as the fact that you are tight when it comes to finances the best advice I can give you is to re-home your animal with someone knowledgeable and financially stable for now.

This will give you the time to do some research on husbandry (which is MUCH needed), and will also give you time to get financially stable.

If finances are tight imagine what will happen when the vet bill for a burn arrives and because you do not regulate your temps this is not a if but a when.

The prolapse also need to be addressed and it's beyond homemade remedy at this point, we are talking about another vet bill.

So anyway hopefully you will take all that in consideration.

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

Slight deficiency? You have a 55 gram 1+ year old ball python that's never had a good shed and has had prolapsed hemipenes for 2 months. That in itself screams that he needs to be cared for differently.

Regardless of the food issue, getting control of your husbandry is the low hanging fruit that you can (and should) correct immediately. There could be other issues, but right now you can only control what is in your control. Then you can move on to other things.

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My temps at the moment are 86-88 hot side 75 low side. I'm going to humor you with the whole first time poster "it's not my fault he has this problem" cliche but it's not my fault he has this problem. Sorry to break it to ya expert but 2 degrees on the low side does not warrant non growth in a snake. Your analysis is off and your aggression is uncalled for.

The fact that you think I take dumps in his tank and piss in his water bowl and ask for help is appalling. Yeah I have an unheard of problem here, but he's always had this problem. Don't give me the "you haven't been feeding him right" spiel because when I had first got him he wasn't growing. It is not as if he grew off of the fuzzies and I never upgraded, he never grew. I have done my research, and obviously I sound helpless but how would you feel if despite all your efforts, your snake was a special case.

Also Deborah, he's been sleeping under his rock at night on his heating pad for approximately 6 months now and his belly is as white as ever. However, I'll keep an eye on it. Thank you for the kind advice and good intentions but the condition of his tank does not equal the condition of his body. I will look elsewhere for help from now on, thank you.

Please calm down.
Analogues and strips are not accurate measuring devices. Your pic shows the dials up too high anyway, and they can't measure the temp on the glass. The heat mat also needs regulation when used with a BP.

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Originally Posted by distaff

Please calm down.
Analogues and strips are not accurate measuring devices. Your pic shows the dials up too high anyway, and they can't measure the temp on the glass. The heat mat also needs regulation when used with a BP.

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The strip is accurate, I picked up a non contact thermo and it is showing 86 on the glass. The strip shows from 86-88.

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Originally Posted by Pippers

The strip is accurate, I picked up a non contact thermo and it is showing 86 on the glass. The strip shows from 86-88.

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The glass under the substrate on the floor of the tank?

What? Where did that come from? My intention is not to be agressive. If you knew me at all, you would know that I don't have that bone in my body. :)

I hear you saying that it's not your fault. If there is an underlying medical condition, it very well might not be. To get to that point, though, make sure the things that you can control are controlled. The condition of your snake is enough to say that something is not in control, so (again) focus on what you can control and rule out those things as you continue.

1) Finding a qualified vet to help you care for the prolapsed hemipenes is within your control.

2) Maintaining proper husbandry is within your control.

Taking action on these things is in no way saying that his current condition is entirely your fault. It is simply the responsible thing to do as a pet owner.

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Originally Posted by Pippers

I'm sorry to say but I'm not quite sure, I don't have a means of finding out. Though I unplugged it.

I'm not sure how I will keep the temps and humidity up in a sterilite tub, there's no where to put any of the utilities. I live in the northeast and it gets very cold so I feel like the tank is the best option for customizing the conditions.

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I think what I get from this is that you don't know how to put the heat lamp and heat pad on a tub? Sorry if I'm wrong. I have a tub for my snake and I also live in the upper northeast, so I assure you using a tub is perfectly possible. All you'll need to do is attach the heat pad (with a dimmer) on the bottom of the tub and somehow elevate the heat lamp a few inches above the tank. Drill many holes in a small area of the lid of the tub and that's how the heat will get in and how the snake breathes. Don't drill any other holes as that will let humidity escape. The dimmer in the heat pad will be used to make sure the heat pad is at the current temperature. When measuring for the temp of the heat pad, aim the temp gun at the bottom of the tank, under the bedding where the heat pad covers. My tub is a bit tall so I placed it under an unused desk and used the clamp from the heat lamp and clamped it onto the edge of the desk.

Pippers,
I too am in the northeast... not far up there, but in Pennsylvania. I understand funds being tight. If you are interested, I have a space for him, and would be willing to help you pay shipping to get him here. I have plenty of frozen rats too. :) I know you may not want to re-home him, but if that is something or a point you do get to, please feel free to send me a private message and we can discuss more. Even if it's just a couple of months until money isn't so tight anymore. Just know, if you are interested, I'm here and will help if I can.

-26 C here today...
Tub would be easier to maintain temps than an aquarium.
No offense to the op but the way I see it is if the snake has been fed a food item too small its entire life theres no reason it should have grown. It would lack proper nutrients and in general enough energy to grow. Like a human diet, you can't gain weight if you're not eating

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Originally Posted by Pippers

Thank you for the kind advice and good intentions but the condition of his tank does not equal the condition of his body. I will look elsewhere for help from now on, thank you.

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Pippers should you make the choice to leave that is up to you but don't go away mad because people here are trying to help.
You have had this snake for too long to just now start asking for help.
You husbandry is way off in every direction.
Either take the information given to you to try and help your animal, give it to someone that is will to make the changes, or take it to the vet for one last ride.

AND BTW I would guess this is your last attempt because yu didn't get the answers you wanted from your vet??

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

What? Where did that come from? My intention is not to be agressive. If you knew me at all, you would know that I don't have that bone in my body. :)

I hear you saying that it's not your fault. If there is an underlying medical condition, it very well might not be. To get to that point, though, make sure the things that you can control are controlled. The condition of your snake is enough to say that something is not in control, so (again) focus on what you can control and rule out those things as you continue.

1) Finding a qualified vet to help you care for the prolapsed hemipenes is within your control.

2) Maintaining proper husbandry is within your control.

Taking action on these things is in no way saying that his current condition is entirely your fault. It is simply the responsible thing to do as a pet owner.

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Sorry, I must have read it wrong. It sounded aggressive and condescending.

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Originally Posted by Kimchi~

I think what I get from this is that you don't know how to put the heat lamp and heat pad on a tub? Sorry if I'm wrong. I have a tub for my snake and I also live in the upper northeast, so I assure you using a tub is perfectly possible. All you'll need to do is attach the heat pad (with a dimmer) on the bottom of the tub and somehow elevate the heat lamp a few inches above the tank. Drill many holes in a small area of the lid of the tub and that's how the heat will get in and how the snake breathes. Don't drill any other holes as that will let humidity escape. The dimmer in the heat pad will be used to make sure the heat pad is at the current temperature. When measuring for the temp of the heat pad, aim the temp gun at the bottom of the tank, under the bedding where the heat pad covers. My tub is a bit tall so I placed it under an unused desk and used the clamp from the heat lamp and clamped it onto the edge of the desk.

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Yeah that's basically the jist of it, I just haven't given much thought to the setup of a sterilite tub, and given all the thought to a tank. I'm definitely going to invest in a tub if the tank doesn't work out after my tank setup regulates. Thank you for the option!

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Originally Posted by Pippers

Yeah that's basically the jist of it, I just haven't given much thought to the setup of a sterilite tub, and given all the thought to a tank. I'm definitely going to invest in a tub if the tank doesn't work out after my tank setup regulates. Thank you for the option!

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No problem, and good luck! I wish you the best.

I'm a pet owner with a super pastel female BP who is very much loved!

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Either take the information given to you to try and help your animal, give it to someone that is will to make the changes, or take it to the vet for one last ride.

AND BTW I would guess this is your last attempt because yu didn't get the answers you wanted from your vet??

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I took all the advice given to me and tweaked his setup. He is about to eat his first hopper. I've honestly been doing everything in my power for the last year to make this guy as comfortable as possible and his conditions have at least been decent. I hope they're perfect now.

Are there any setup guides you guys recommend? I just checked out the stickied 20 gal (pretty sure that's what i got) tank setup..it looks like exactly what you all have been trying to explain to me.

Also Pip just ate his first Hopper! He didn't seem to have any trouble eating it, though it was his biggest kill yet (it was frozen). Also I offered it wet.

Could you also try to get a picture of his "prolapsed hemipenes"? Because I am wondering if what you(and the vet) are seeing are the "spurs" which are supposed to be out.

A humid hide(or two even) could help his hydration as well. Those would be super easy and cheap to make. A tupperware bowl big enough to hold him, with dampened moss inside and a hole cut into it.

I would have had him on at least a mouse hopper, even at 50 grams. So his size could be underfeeding, if he's only been getting enough calories to maintain himself.

I would wait a week before offering more food, since he just had the hopper. Congrats on him eating it and good job on offering it wet too.

If people here sound aggressive, it's just because they really love ball pythons, so they want to see your pet get better. That's all.

I'm glad you got him to eat a bigger prey item. I would also like to see a pic of this prolapse, although if your vet mistook spurs for hemipenes then it is time for a new vet!! At the same time two months is a long time for something like that to be exposed and not end up with major tissue damage and infection so maybe they are the spurs.

There could be two factors at work here for his small size as well, although I agree that his prey size has been small and perhaps larger feeding will clear that up...however there could be a genetic component as well. There are genetic disorders that effect growth, hormones, digestive absorption, the list goes on and on.

I have a four year old hognose male that is less than half the size of a normal hognose male. He eats almost twice what my other hognose eat (if the other hognose turn their shove nose up at a meal he will *always* take it instead). All the others grew big...he just stopped growing at 25-30 gram range. He's not thin, he's just small. I love him, he's my little runt.

Good luck! Keep us posted!

Tiny hognose is tiny! Granted this is a pic of him with a female (350 grams) and they are always bigger, but this is just ridiculous (note how he still wants to mate with her. Not happening. I would never leave him alone in a tank with her...she'd eat him. I put them on the floor for a quick photo and he was like 'hell yeah, I like em big!)

http://img10.deviantart.net/74fc/i/2...ry-d9o85xx.jpg