How to feel about the ethics of the spider wobble?

I know there's like a million spider wobble threads out there though I guess I have some questions about how to feel about the ethics of it.

I have a very sweet male hypo butter bee who I'm wanting to eventually breed to my two females (hypo super mojave and a butter), he hasn't displayed any wobbling as far as I've noticed but I know that doesn't matter as it's more tied in with the gene and not always the severity of the parent.

Regardless of who I breed him with he'd still have the chance of producing a morph with a spider gene, thus the chance of any level of wobble.

I got into a discussion with someone today over whether it was ethical or not to breed him knowing that there was still that chance at the neurological defect - which they feel it's irresponsible to breed any spider-gened BPs because of this risk.

I've heard that it doesn't hurt the snake, and that they can still live completely fine with it (though I don't know if this is true for a high severity of wobble), but at the same time I almost feel guilty about it. ):

I'm not sure how I should feel on the matter. How do you guys see it? Do you still support the breeding of spider-gened BPs, do you avoid it?

Regardless of how others feel about it you will have to grapple with it in your own mind. You are the one raising these reptiles and you should weigh it in your own way and decide if you will proceed or not on the breeding level. The controversy will remain either way. No one should sway you in your decision if you plan to go forward on the same token you should not let any one tell you it's ok if you don't think it is. Just my .02 cents. Good luck whichever way you decide to go.

Yes, I support breeding spiders. I don't see anything wrong with it. Maybe because the spiders I have seem to do fine, and I've never seen the train wrecks. While genetics got me into ball pythons it was two pastel spiders who stole my heart and took a passion to another level. One we call Miss Lightning, the other officially B2, but often we just call her "Wonky". Can't imagine my collection, without those incredible individuals. And the picture is Logan, Miss Lightning's daughter, the day of her birth.

I see nothing wrong with breeding spiders. The vast majority of them feed and grow and live quite well. I don't know of anyone who has needed to euthanize a spider for spinning, in fact. I'm not saying that those don't exist, I just don't know of any.

It's always up to you. I find that people who are against something, are going to be against it, no matter what fact or argument you bring to bear.

I have no problem with spiders, my mojave spider only ever has wobble when he smells a rat and even then it only takes him an extra strike to hit the rat.
My boys never wobbled when held, but that may not be the case for all spiders so as long as you understand this and are willing to work with snakes that may have more severe wobble then go for it, they look great!
It almost gives them a bit more personality than my other pet rocks

My Mojave spider het hypo has a very severe wobble. He corkscrews holds his head weird and sleeps to where he looks dead due to the position.

He misses his strike multiple times when it comes to feeding but he gets it and eats like a pig.

Will i breed him? Yeah. I love spuders and the combos you can create. He's already planned to be paired with my yb het hypo and my calico blast once they're all big enough.

I think they're beautiful regardless. And his wobble is severe, but hes so freaking cute i wouldny trade him even for a higher end morph.


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I won't have any part in it, personally. I view it the same way as breeding a dog with bad hips.

My personal feeling is this: Would I breed a spider? Yes. Would I sell a snake that had a wobble? No. So for me, I would only breed a spider when and if I had the means to keep any offspring it produced that had an issue.

I've bred spiders in the past and while my breeders had very little wobble, some of the offspring were severe. Severe enough that it made me sad and I made the decision to get rid of them and other morphs that have a history of neurological issues. This was a personal choice and not one that I'd expect other people to follow. I just figure that there are plenty of other morphs to work with that don't have these kinds of issues.

It's like breeding bulldogs and pugs. Your'e breeding something with a horrid deformity that can impact it's ability to live BECAUSE ITS PRETTY. That's the only reason. You value whats pretty over the overall welfare of an animal, simply because you like the color. Never mind your'e creating animals that cannot raise their heads without shaking, it's only because you think it's alright to create disabled animals because the color is nice.
You don't show ball pythons, you don't use them as working animals. You just want to be selfish and create animals with poor quality of lives because you said so. There's never going to be a good reason to do it.

Not to derail the thread, but I'm disabled. That doesn't mean I have a poor quality of life. In fact for years I was in a wheelchair with twitching in my lower limbs and a lack of limb control. My body didn't go where I told it to. The worst part of that part of my life was when people treated me like a deformity, not a person.

I have a spider morph who has no wobble. He is my favorite. Not because of his color, but because of his temperament.

I am an example of how someone's opinion can change due to exposure. Originally I was dead set against breeding spiders or even owning one. I had experienced too many bad things in my horse days and had formed the opinion that breeding anything with a defect was just plain irresponsible. I bought what was advertised as a Super Mojave from a now questionable source that turned out to be a Super Mojave Spider. He is basically a train wreck. In the beginning I couldn't even watch him when he began to corkscrew. I decided not to get rid of him though and to study him instead, besides my daughters fell in love with him. His disposition is wonderful and he has quite the personality for a snake. At any rate I soon realized that this "defective" snake could teach me a lot about ball pythons. Now, by observation, I personally believe with spiders for whatever reason have a hard time telling which direction is up, and that the crazy stuff only starts when they are worked up about something such as feeding or there is something wrong in their environment. I now had a ball python that could tell me when something was wrong. I know when he has defecated, is hungry, not happy with his hides, etc. This little snake taught me to begin to recognize things with my "normal" snakes that I just not see before. He makes a wonderful pet for my daughters and a great barometer of my own husbandry skills. I like him so much that I was given a x-mas present of a Lavender Spider this year. He has the same temperament as my first one. He also wobbles but is not a train wreck. Long story short, both these guys will be bred next season. I will breed them because in my opinion they make wonderful pets especially for a new keeper because they will "tell" you when something is wrong. I do not think it is unethical to breed them as pets. To release one into the wild however would be a mistake. The only thing I would recommend is that if someone decides to sell spiders they need to make it very clear to the buyer what they are getting.

I have a spinner blast male, he has spider in him, but no wobble. I just bought a enchi firefly, and it has no spider in it. Eventually i will breed them, and hope that the wobble gene needs the two parents too carry spider to show the wobble. If i'm wrong please correct me. i have seen a few wobbles but the snakes eat and drink and seem to do well, so i'm not too concerned. I've seen a few fire spiders and they are very pretty.

Spider == wobble. They all have it, they only differ in the degree it is expressed at the moment. No one has been able to "breed it out" that I am aware of. Other extreme pattern reduction morphs also have it. It is somehow "genetically attached" to the pattern change.

I am actually surprised that pinstripes do not wobble.

I do not judge those that breed spiders or consider them unethical, however the wobble is disturbing for me personally so I abstain from owning or breeding them myself. I wouldn't be comfortable selling a snake with a bad wobble, and I wouldn't want to keep it. Rack space is too valuable, and the wobble would be too upsetting for me. (To clarify, my justifications are why I won't produce them - I'm not saying I'd turn my back on a spider in need of rescue if I came across one.) It's a shame, since spider combos look so good and are so popular, but for me the risk of even one bad wobble outweighs all the benefits of producing spider combos. I'd like to think my stance is beneficial overall, though - there's one less competitor selling spider morphs!

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my opinion is why not leave it alone? Isn't a normal ball python beautiful enough? I saw all kinds of combos at the last pet expo but walked away thinking that the "normal" ball is actually the best looking.

Not to call anyone out here but breeding dogs with hip and breathing problems is totally a different thing. Not being able to breathe or walk properly is painful... the wobble is not. I would never own a great dane for example because their hearts are too small for the size so it cannot keep up giving great danes a short life span. To me that is unfair. But the wobble does not effect a spider or woma in any negative way. I am bringing woma into this because I have one that has a worse wobble then my spiders. I do not think the wobble brings "personality" to a snake and I believe this statement is just used as an excuse for the wobble. My grandfather died from dementia, beside forgetting a few people and bit of memory loss, his personality never changed. The wobble does not effect my spiders or my woma at all. They may miss their meal but it's nice to see these guys not give up and hit the rat on the second try. I do breed these guys and right now my woma who is also fire is breeding to my vanilla. If I get a woma vanilla cream, wobble or not, I am super excited to see the outcome.

Back on track please just like the last thread on ethics this is not a DOG breeding ethic thread if you wish to create a dog breeding thread you can do so in the appropriate forum.

I've been breeding for a few years now and I have never witness a severe wobble from my spiders or spider morphs. I've witness a little bit here and there but nothing like some have described. I've seen some corkscrew and some wobble just a little but nothing id say severe. I guess I would need to see a severe case in person to really make a judgment call. But if it wasn't for breeding I would have never made some of the coolest looking BPs.

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I guess do what your heart tells you. Would you still love these babies if they corkscrewed all the time and never stop wobbling?


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I guess I'm permanently on the fence on this. I have a spider female, and I will breed her. Also have a champagne female, who shows no wobble, that I've bred already. But I'm still not entirely fine with the wobble. The possibility of hatching a severe case, or having one grow into a severe case, is always on my mind when I consider the pairings. So for now I just limit the number of animals I own that have the possibility of the wobble. And try and educate myself as much as I can.

When I bought my spider I didn't fully understand the spider wobble as no one mentioned it to me (pet store) and was certainly freaked out when he corked screwed at the first feeding. People will do as they like but if they choose to breed spider morphs I think any buyers of offspring should be fully informed of the potential for serious wobble as it could lead to the animal being re-homed by an inexperienced or first time keeper.
I love my spider guy, he's settled a lot and doesn't corkscrew at feeding anymore, I'll likely never get rid of him, but I don't think I'll ever purchase another spider morph.
To each his own, be an informed buyer

I don't have a problem with breeding spider morphs unless it's a pairing known to create a lethal combo, such as champagne x spider. Otherwise, any time you put a female to a male you can end up with offspring - or even a whole clutch - of snakes that hatch out imperfect. Whether that imperfection impacts quality of life or not is key, as most snakes really don't need a lot: food, correct warmth and humidity, and a secure hidey-hole. The important thing is to have a plan for those animals, e.g. given away as pets, culled and used as feeders, etc.

It would be interesting to know what percentage of spider morphs end up culled due to being born with, or even developing, a wobble so severe that it can't eat.

I do have a few spider morphs and combos. The bee and spider show a very mild wobble, while my the spinner only shows it when stressed or excited, like when feeding. Fortunately she takes f/t so it doesn't matter - if I can get the feeder in front of her nose she'll grab it readily enough.

If I am drifting too far from the original topic please feel free to move this however does anyone know of a spider that had to be culled due to wobble? I for one do not.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

If I am drifting too far from the original topic please feel free to move this however does anyone know of a spider that had to be culled due to wobble? I for one do not.

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I have only heard of one person that claims to of had a spider with a wobble so bad it wouldn't eat. However that same person just culled it instead of taking suggestions on how to minimize it, so who knows how bad it really was. Then there are always the "I know a breeder" "I have a buddy" "my sister's boyfriend's cousin's aunt" rumors that you never find a source to, seems to be the same people that have desert females that lay viable eggs. Besides that we have multi thousands of spiders that thrive perfectly fine in captivity.

Wobble or not, I can't imagine where this amazing hobby would be without the spider gene. Normal Ball Pythons are great, but it wasn't until I saw a bumble bee that I knew I had to get involved with BPs. I could only imagine the excitement in those early days of having a dominant gene that could change the pattern of a ball python so much. I don't personally own a spider BP and I never did get that bumble bee but I think this hobby and how it has grown owes a lot to the gene.

Whether you believe it's ethical or not think where this hobby would be without the Spider, HGW, Woma, and champagne genes and the excitement they injected to it.

I don't think you can compare things like bad hips in a dog to the wobble in a BP. The wobble doesn't seem to distress them, it doesn't interfere in their desire to eat(might make it harder for them to strike well) and doesn't stop them from breeding. They crawl about, look at things, eat prey items, coil up and sit there like a rock... everything that a normal BP does.

I've had friends with disorders/injuries that give them a palsy and although they wish they didn't have the palsy, and it creates some issues, they've said that it was not particularly painful nor distressing once they got used to the condition.

Since a spider hatches out with the condition, it's never known any different. with mine(who wobbles a lot), I simply prekill all of her food, and she eats quite readily. In fact, she rarely ever misses a meal. I named her Hepburn for her elegance and poise... and for the palsy.

For myself, I will probably never own an animal with the spider gene present. I do appreciate the beauty of some of the morphs, such as a lesser bee, but the wobble simply bothers me. I won't speak for the snake. How can I? A snake has never spoken to me so how would I know what it is experiencing? How can I know if it is in pain or distressed by it's condition? We humans, in our arrogance, have a tendency towards anthropomorphism.

I will not knowingly propagate an animal with a known defect. There are simply too many other combos I can produce that are issue free. I do not know the history of the spider gene however, I do often wonder to myself. If a human hadn't intervened, capturing and breeding the first specimen carrying the defect, would it have survived to the age of sexual maturity or would nature have eliminated it through natural selection?

All this being said I would not dare tell you how you should feel or what you should decide. That is up to you and you alone.

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Originally Posted by rlditmars

For myself, I will probably never own an animal with the spider gene present. I do appreciate the beauty of some of the morphs, such as a lesser bee, but the wobble simply bothers me. I won't speak for the snake. How can I? A snake has never spoken to me so how would I know what it is experiencing? How can I know if it is in pain or distressed by it's condition? We humans, in our arrogance, have a tendency towards anthropomorphism.

I will not knowingly propagate an animal with a known defect. There are simply too many other combos I can produce that are issue free. I do not know the history of the spider gene however, I do often wonder to myself. If a human hadn't intervened, capturing and breeding the first specimen carrying the defect, would it have survived to the age of sexual maturity or would nature have eliminated it through natural selection?

All this being said I would not dare tell you how you should feel or what you should decide. That is up to you and you alone.

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Honestly I believe to each his own, but with this logic there are other morphs that should not be bred. I have two normal albinos that I believe are quite visually impaired. I have heard others report the same thing about albinos. Should we not breed those too? As to them being in pain, I have seen more than my share of animals in pain. If i believed for a second that my snakes were in some kind of excruciating pain that could not be corrected I would cull them. I absolutely do not believe they are in pain.

I have a beautiful Spinner Blast. Yes, he has a bit of wobble and I even (affectionately) call him a bit of a derp. It's most noticeable when he's stressed or excited. Occasionally, he does miss his rat on the first strike but not always and it never seems to stop him from trying again. I absolutely adore him and look forward to breeding him in the future, even knowing there is a (slim) chance that some offspring may be so bad they may need culled. As someone mentioned earlier in the thread - everyone knows someone's aunt's brother's nephews 3rd cousin twice removed that has had a snake so wonky it won't survive so a more humane route needs to be taken. This is always a possibility no matter what animals you are breeding from pets to livestock. It's not a condition that the reptile industry (and BP specifically) have the sole claim to. Does that stop horse ranches from breeding horses? Cattle ranches from producing calves? Chicken farms from hatching chicks? Etc, etc ad infinitum. No, it does not. Each person involved has to exam their own beliefs and decide for themselves if not only they can handle the possible outcomes, but also if the rewards will outweigh the risks. Personally, I have no problem with the spider wobble - i have a much bigger problem with the duckbill/kinking that some morphs are notorious for. But then, I see that as a much bigger health risk to the snake.

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Originally Posted by blue roses

I have a spinner blast male, he has spider in him, but no wobble. I just bought a enchi firefly, and it has no spider in it. Eventually i will breed them, and hope that the wobble gene needs the two parents too carry spider to show the wobble. If i'm wrong please correct me. i have seen a few wobbles but the snakes eat and drink and seem to do well, so i'm not too concerned. I've seen a few fire spiders and they are very pretty.

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You're wrong; the gene does not need both parents to carry to show a wobble. Even a parent's wobble won't be a good guide to use to predict offspring wobble. Some have none and grow into a wobble...some do the opposite. A parent with low wobble can produce an offspring that has terrible corkscrew, and the opposite is also true. You simply cannot predict the outcome.

While spider is the topic of this thread, there are other genes that exhibit the wobble, as well. Woma, HGW, Champagne, Super Sable, and Power Ball. You don't see nearly as many threads about their issues. Even super lessers have an issue, although it's not neuro related. They have a tendency to bug eye. Even little wee Mon Cheri has one eye bigger than the other. As what could be considered a physical deformity, it doesn't stop breeders from making super lessers.
There's more, of course, and OWAL has a list if you care to check it out. (http://www.owalreptiles.com/issues.php)

To end back on the spider, and to lean on OWAL again, there's a really informative article written up that may help you make up your mind about where you stand on the spider. http://www.owalreptiles.com/spider.php

Thanks for all the opinions guys! It's super informative and gives me a lot to think about, and I look forward to any other 2 cents people put in this thread.

I won't be able to breed any of my females for another two years or so, so I do have time to think about how I sit with it.
I definitely agree that any possible buyers should be well aware of the possibility of a wobble in the offspring they purchase
so if I do go that route I'd do all that I can to inform them so they're not in the dark and it wouldn't risk the snake being abandoned due to the wobble.

Out of curiosity, is there a way to tell if the wobble is/isn't causing pain to the snake? I've been told it doesn't even with severe cases, but at the same time is there a way that we can tell that this is true?
I guess that's my biggest concern is if it's causing pain, which is one of the reasons I don't plan on breeding my male caramel albino (due to the high kink percentages), so he'll be stuck in pet tier :P.
Obviously there's always a chance for mishaps regardless of what you're breeding, but has there been studies that show this neurological defect doesn't cause pain - only difficulty with equilibrium?

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Originally Posted by Cargorabbit

...has there been studies that show this neurological defect doesn't cause pain - only difficulty with equilibrium?

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In animals loss of appetite is a sign of ongoing pain and/or stress. Since the snakes eat - and face it, a butterfly flapping its wings in Africa can cause a month-long fast in a ball python - I'd say that the wobble isn't physically painful to them.

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Originally Posted by Yodawagon

I won't have any part in it, personally. I view it the same way as breeding a dog with bad hips.

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Understandable, but at the same time, a spider wobble is also not as harmful to the animal than said hip issues (according to everything I've read about it). I can see not breeding something dangerous, but I don't feel it's quite the same.

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Originally Posted by rlditmars

For myself, I will probably never own an animal with the spider gene present. I do appreciate the beauty of some of the morphs, such as a lesser bee, but the wobble simply bothers me. I won't speak for the snake. How can I? A snake has never spoken to me so how would I know what it is experiencing? How can I know if it is in pain or distressed by it's condition? We humans, in our arrogance, have a tendency towards anthropomorphism.

I will not knowingly propagate an animal with a known defect. There are simply too many other combos I can produce that are issue free. I do not know the history of the spider gene however, I do often wonder to myself. If a human hadn't intervened, capturing and breeding the first specimen carrying the defect, would it have survived to the age of sexual maturity or would nature have eliminated it through natural selection?

All this being said I would not dare tell you how you should feel or what you should decide. That is up to you and you alone.

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Marvellous post.

I'm at a loss as to why some people go ape about the supposed stress caused when soaking a snake but the very same people are happy enough to breed the morphs carrying the offending gene .

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Originally Posted by MichPlat

I'm at a loss as to why some people go ape about the supposed stress caused when soaking a snake but the very same people are happy enough to breed the morphs carrying the offending gene .

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Kinda' apples and oranges...

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Originally Posted by bcr229

In animals loss of appetite is a sign of ongoing pain and/or stress. Since the snakes eat - and face it, a butterfly flapping its wings in Africa can cause a month-long fast in a ball python - I'd say that the wobble isn't physically painful to them.

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Writhing and corkscrewing seem like signs of pain to me, or discomfort at the very least.

Personally, I don't own any spiders and if I did, I would never breed one.

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Originally Posted by greco

Writhing and corkscrewing seem like signs of pain to me, or discomfort at the very least.

Personally, I don't own any spiders and if I did, I would never breed one.

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No, the wobble (not to be confused with writhing and corkscrewing which maybe effects 1% of spiders) is a sign of a neurological issue resulting in a less than perfect equilibrium. Spiders have been around for quite awhile now and there is no evidence that I'm aware of that indicates that their quality of life is any less than the typical captive BP in an overwhelming majority of cases. The choice to own one is of course up to each person; there are countless morphs to chose from and you can't keep them all.

I am not too bothered by the wobble that can come w spider genes, I have a beautiful killer bee that hasnt got not a wobble or anything, not even when stressed or eating. I remember when the spider gene was introduced into the pet trade, and back then I recall seeing more w wobbles, spins and corkscrews. I think over the years breeders have been more conscientious about breeding animals that display very little to no real problems in hopes of producing healthier offspring than before. This probably accounts for less snakes seen w serious neuro issues presented by the spider gene.

I'm firmly in the camp of "there are morphs without neuro issues out there that can be bred so why breed the ones with neuro issues?"

Spiders and their combos can be absolutely gorgeous, I understand. They make some of the most striking BPs out there. But I don't feel right choosing to create animals that will with 100% certainty carry a genetic problem, and that they may suffer from, when I could instead choose to create animals with no higher than usual risk of being born with problems/defects/disabilities.

The difference between owning and loving an animal with a problem and intentionally breeding two animals together that will result in offspring with a problem is very clear to me.

As for whether the wobble is painful, I don't think can't really know that with 100% certainty. And if it's not painful, is it uncomfortable? Is it frightening, frustrating? Does it cause them stress? I have problems with confusion sometimes and I can tell you it is very stressful trying to make sense of a world that seems different from how it just was in your head. Maybe on a basic level they experience something like that. We just can't ask them, so we don't know.

And since there is no consensus on whether the animal suffers from wobble or not, I see breeding an animal with the wobble, knowing that its offspring will have the genes for the wobble, is unethical. Which brings me back to my first point: you are in a hobby in which there are thousands of possible morph combinations out there to be bred for, dinkers to be proven out, polygenic traits to play with, etc. Why include one of the handful of morphs with a known genetic defect in your breeding projects?

All the same, love and fat rats to all the wobbly babies out there and those who will be born in breeding seasons to come :snake:

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Originally Posted by rlditmars

I won't speak for the snake. How can I? A snake has never spoken to me so how would I know what it is experiencing? How can I know if it is in pain or distressed by it's condition? We humans, in our arrogance, have a tendency towards anthropomorphism.

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I agree with this.

However, the greater arrogance is the opposite - the tendency for humans to forget that they are just hugely sophisticated animals.

It wasn't that long ago that some people (maybe some people still do...) proposed that non-human animals either didn't feel pain or didn't subjectively experience it - for example, making claims that although a dog would yelp and avoid you if you trod on it's tail, it was just a programmed response from an "automaton". I think this was just rationalisation to allow suffering to be ignored.

Applying human emotions to a snake is ridiculous - they don't have the brain-power. But denying they have some basic inherent experience of comfort/discomfort and fear/security is pretty difficult. If there is any possibility that these animals have lower levels of comfort (or higher discomfort) than a normal animal (even if it's constant throughout their lives) then I feel we should avoid breeding them.

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Originally Posted by Jeanne

I think over the years breeders have been more conscientious about breeding animals that display very little to no real problems in hopes of producing healthier offspring than before. This probably accounts for less snakes seen w serious neuro issues presented by the spider gene.

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This is incorrect, the wobble is part of the mutation, it can not be selectively bred out. As I've stated before, despite the fact that my breeder male hardly showed any signs of wobbling at all I still produced a couple of babies that twisted so much they could barely eat on their own (I had to push the rodent up against the side of their head in order for them to be able to find it) and they even had to be helped with shedding. The wobble is completely random, this has been reported by many breeders. I suspect that the reason we don't see more of the extreme examples of the wobble is because many of the worst ones are culled.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

the wobble is part of the mutation, it can not be selectively bred out.... I suspect that the reason we don't see more of the extreme examples of the wobble is because many of the worst ones are culled.

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Mark is 100% on the money. This community has been breeding Spiders for many many generations, and the wobble is still around. If in fact the worst of the train wrecks are going in the freezer, or at least being kept as pets only, and I believe this to be true, the wobble would eventually die off. The fact that Spiders still wobble is conclusive evidence that the condition is attached to the gene.

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Originally Posted by Slim

Mark is 100% on the money. This community has been breeding Spiders for many many generations, and the wobble is still around. If in fact the worst of the train wrecks are going in the freezer, or at least being kept as pets only, and I believe this to be true, the wobble would eventually die off. The fact that Spiders still wobble is conclusive evidence that the condition is attached to the gene.

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If loads of these ' defective ' hatchlings are being disposed of .... it makes the practice of breeding them even more abhorrent tbh !

I've easily produced over a hundred spider babies over the years and I've never had to cull a baby spider and I've never had one corkscrew. Some wobble for sure but they always found a home.

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

If loads of these ' defective ' hatchlings are being disposed of .... it makes the practice of breeding them even more abhorrent tbh !

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We'll never know, or even be able to reasonably guess how many are culled each season. Let's not forget that the vast majority of the Ball Python world isn't on this forum, so a poll of breeders here would do us no good.

As for culling of defects being abhorrent, I respect your opinion, even though I may not agree with it.

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Originally Posted by DennisM

No, the wobble (not to be confused with writhing and corkscrewing which maybe effects 1% of spiders) is a sign of a neurological issue resulting in a less than perfect equilibrium. Spiders have been around for quite awhile now and there is no evidence that I'm aware of that indicates that their quality of life is any less than the typical captive BP in an overwhelming majority of cases. The choice to own one is of course up to each person; there are countless morphs to chose from and you can't keep them all.

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And how did you come up with that percentage?

I'll agree that most spiders probably only show minor signs of wobble. But then again, we aren't going to hear about the bad ones in an overwhelming majority of cases (to borrow your words).

Also, wobble can definitely get worse with age. The signs may not appear at all until the snake is older. Just because a spider isn't corkscrewing NOW doesn't mean that it never will.

Here's an example (from a different forum):

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My spider was 8 months when I got him and barely showed signs of a wobble, also struck and hit dead on, and never shivered or "shook". He just turned two, he went through an upside down phase and now he shakes almost constantly unless he is out with me or pearl, if I put him down he starts shaking and hits himself off things. Feeding has become a nightmare he pretty much vibrates its so bad, he misses 95% of the time unless he gets it stomach, if he misses he won't eat again and just hides. I love him to death and it kills me to see how bad it has gotten, to be completely honest I hate when people say it doesn't affect the quality of life cause when I look at him I can't help but think what's going on in his head, eating scares him, being out just on his own freaks him out, I can't just take him out and let him go like the others cause he either hides or tries so adventure and gets hurt.

All I can say is be prepared.

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Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

If loads of these ' defective ' hatchlings are being disposed of .... it makes the practice of breeding them even more abhorrent tbh !

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To be honest, I've culled more normals with birth defects or deformities then I have any morph. These kinds of defects can happen when breeding ANY animal. There is nothing 'abhorrent' about euthanizing any animal that is dying or is destined to have a poor quality of life. If you can't handle these kind of issues as they arise, then breeding animals is probably not for you.

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Originally Posted by Slim

Mark is 100% on the money. This community has been breeding Spiders for many many generations, and the wobble is still around. If in fact the worst of the train wrecks are going in the freezer, or at least being kept as pets only, and I believe this to be true, the wobble would eventually die off. The fact that Spiders still wobble is conclusive evidence that the condition is attached to the gene.

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World of Ball Pythons says 1999 for the first spider. So the gene has been in captivity for approximately 18 years. With roughly 2 years between hatching and first breeding, there have been less than 10 generations of captive breeding. For what it's worth, my definition of "many many" is at least 30 generations. And with a ball python's long life span, there is a chance that some of the first generation spiders are still in the breeding population. While removing the train wrecks from the breeding population helps, constant outbreeding of spiders to unrelated normals does nothing to select against wobbling. My $0.02.

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Originally Posted by Slim

We'll never know, or even be able to reasonably guess how many are culled each season. Let's not forget that the vast majority of the Ball Python world isn't on this forum, so a poll of breeders here would do us no good.

As for culling of defects being abhorrent, I respect your opinion, even though I may not agree with it.

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Interesting .

Well thankfully I don't breed snakes , just collect and keep them .

Breeding them has never appealed to me in the slightest , we're all different I guess as many seem to live for the breeding part of snake keeping ..

Great thread and posts!

I can't speak for the experience of others, but I'll share my experiences. I've produced 50+ spider and spider combos over the years. None of my breeders have major neurological issues. I have never had to cull a spider or spider combo hatchling I produced. None of the offspring I've produced had feeding problems, extreme neurological or corkscrewing issues including my own holdbacks and sold subadults/adults I see months-years later. That being said, I'm also not handling every spider/spider combo on a daily basis for extended periods of time. Although I do handle them, friends handle them and some are used for educational purposes- I try my very best to keep their stress levels at a minimum. I also incubate most of my ball python eggs at a lower temperature than most others, anywhere from 84-87F. I don't know if it helps or I just got really lucky. But I do know that the nervous system, particularly the central nervous system is highly sensitive to heat- especially toward the latter stages of development (why temperature spikes in incubation can cause wobbling/head tilt/neuro issues).