1st lock of the season

I am both excited and scared by this lock. Excited because I have always wanted an 8ball/super cinny/super black pastel, for having an all black, patternless snake is super cool. Scared because of the kinking/duck billing issues. But my black pastel male locked with my cinnamon female. They are as unrelated as possible, bought from different people at different times, so hoping that will reduce my chances of issues. We will just have to see.
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l8...2006.13.25.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l8...2006.13.42.jpg

Best luck with it!
I have 5 eggs of B. Pastel x Cinny in the incubator, cooking at 87°.

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You do know that you won't get supers?

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You need a cinnamon x cinnamon or black pastel x black pastel and it doesn't always happen I've seen some really nice super cinnamons and I have one with a tail stub and he is a great breeder

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by dylanjwicklund

You need a cinnamon x cinnamon or black pastel x black pastel and it doesn't always happen I've seen some really nice super cinnamons and I have one with a tail stub and he is a great breeder

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black pastel x cinnamon = 8 ball

Their incompatible and will not produce an all black snake I have seen a few people make the same mistake

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Only reason I know is my friend used my super cinnamon male and bred to his female black pastel and we got 0 supers out of 8 eggs

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No it won't be a super but it could produce an 8 ball which is what he wanted - an all dark patternless snake.

Black Pastel Cinnamon (aka 8 Ball, Eightball) http://www.worldofballpythons.com/fi...nnamon/001.jpg

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(That was shared from the WOBP app...I thought it would post the link too but I guess not.)

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By definition it wont be a super because they are two different genes ( cinny and b.pastel). Visualy its the same result, the photo up there.
Maybe that female b.pastel was not, or maybe you had really bad odds....

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That still looks like a super cinnamon to me because it's soo brown but I haven't seen an 8ball before so I'm starting to want to do that pairing again lol

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And let me know the results if you can I'm getting pretty excited about this project again

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I'm hoping for an 8ball, which is an all black, patternless snake. Genetically, it will act like a super cinny or super black pastel, because the genes for cinnamon and black pastel are allelic, meaning that they are on the same allel, much the same way that the BEL complex works. If you breed an 8ball to a normal, then you will only get cinnamons and black pastels, no normals. From what I have read concerning the color, super cinnamons tend to be more brown, super black pastels tend to be more black, and an 8ball is somewhere in between the two. But trying to get a super cinny or super black pastel is a gamble because of the kinking issues. I've read that this combo is the safest option for visually what I am wanting. There is still a risk, and I am hoping I have minimized the risk as much as possible. We will see.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dylanjwicklund

You do know that you won't get supers?

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You're wrong. You can get supers. They absolutely are compatible. Either your friend was unlucky or didn't have the genes he thought he had. Just like mojave and lesser are different genes but compatible.

Now the color might be a little different but it's the same thing.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by dylanjwicklund

Their incompatible and will not produce an all black snake I have seen a few people make the same mistake

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Might not be all black. Maybe a dark brown but even cinny x cinny or bpxbp can throw brown snakes. Still a 25% chance regardless of the pairing

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Izzys Keeper

You're wrong. You can get supers. They absolutely are compatible. Either your friend was unlucky or didn't have the genes he thought he had. Just like mojave and lesser are different genes but compatible.

Now the color might be a little different but it's the same thing.

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This is a baby from that black pastel to super cinnamon and what I don't get is if they look the same produce the same snakes and are allylic I'm starting to think thier is no 2 genes but one
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...4529a9e48f.jpg

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by dylanjwicklund

This is a baby from that black pastel to super cinnamon and what I don't get is if they look the same produce the same snakes and are allylic I'm starting to think thier is no 2 genes but one
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...4529a9e48f.jpg

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That's a debate that has gone one for a while. BP and cinny were from 2 different imported snakes owned by 2 different people if I remember correctly. One was bred to darker snakes. One was bred to lighter snakes. It is uncertain if these snakes are the same morph so it is generally assumed and accepted that they are AT LEAST different lines or allelic to each other. There are many morphs that are similar to each other than can work with each other. Some can vary from each other, while others look more similar.

Lesser and butter was thought to be different a few years back but now generally are accepted as the same based on how the combos of them look the same. Same with coral glows and bananas

I'm still on the fence with BP and cinny but I personally like to think they are the same. Or at least that the lines have been crossed so many times that it it difficult to distinguish them from each other many times

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by dylanjwicklund

This is a baby from that black pastel to super cinnamon and what I don't get is if they look the same produce the same snakes and are allylic I'm starting to think thier is no 2 genes but one
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Do you have pictures of the parents? It could've just been really crap luck because even though mathematics claim 50% will be Cinnamon and 50% will be 8-Balls, it's really that each egg has a 50% chance to be either and not a guarantee that you'll have a clutch that is half of each.

As for Cinnamon and Black Pastel being the same gene...I have to disagree. Yes, they produce similar morphs that are sometimes hard to tell apart. Some of them, while similar, have pretty easy to pick out differences, though.

For instance

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/andromeda/

vs

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/mo...r-emperor-pin/

Yes, the snake's both have similar coloring and patterning, but one, to me, looks much more like a water color painting that's gotten damp with the colors bleeding into each other while the second one starts off with a much sharper contrast. Maybe it's just me.


http://www.worldofballpythons.com/gfx/spacer.gif

It is not a super, the 8 ball x normal pairing will give cinnys, B. Pastel and normals. A super gives all with the same gene. It looks like a super cinny or a super B.Pastel, but it is not a super. Just like mojave x lesser isnt a super. Mojave x mojave is a super, all of the offspring will have the mojave gene.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Izzys Keeper

That's a debate that has gone one for a while. BP and cinny were from 2 different imported snakes owned by 2 different people if I remember correctly. One was bred to darker snakes. One was bred to lighter snakes. It is uncertain if these snakes are the same morph so it is generally assumed and accepted that they are AT LEAST different lines or allelic to each other. There are many morphs that are similar to each other than can work with each other. Some can vary from each other, while others look more similar.

Lesser and butter was thought to be different a few years back but now generally are accepted as the same based on how the combos of them look the same. Same with coral glows and bananas

I'm still on the fence with BP and cinny but I personally like to think they are the same. Or at least that the lines have been crossed so many times that it it difficult to distinguish them from each other many times

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Thanks that helps alot

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by SmoothScales

Do you have pictures of the parents? It could've just been really crap luck because even though mathematics claim 50% will be Cinnamon and 50% will be 8-Balls, it's really that each egg has a 50% chance to be either and not a guarantee that you'll have a clutch that is half of each.

As for Cinnamon and Black Pastel being the same gene...I have to disagree. Yes, they produce similar morphs that are sometimes hard to tell apart. Some of them, while similar, have pretty easy to pick out differences, though.

For instance

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/andromeda/

vs

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/mo...r-emperor-pin/

Yes, the snake's both have similar coloring and patterning, but one, to me, looks much more like a water color painting that's gotten damp with the colors bleeding into each other while the second one starts off with a much sharper contrast. Maybe it's just me.


http://www.worldofballpythons.com/gfx/spacer.gif

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On my laptop I'll go through it when I get home

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This is the dad the super cinnamon I got him for cheap because of his stubbed tail that's why I named him stubs :) and the breeder thought he wouldn't produce because of it and he also has a bug scar on his under belly from a heat mat burn but through all that I raised him up and he has fathered 3 Healthy clutches I'll get the mom from my computer later

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...445b730587.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...952312cd25.jpg

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