Ethical Question

Perhaps I shouldn't let this kind of thing bother me but it does, especially in transactions involving animals.

Like most other herpers I peruse ads daily in the reptile forums and Facebook groups. I'd say 99.9% don't raise an eyebrow, even those on Craigslist.

Occasionally I'll see one that makes me shake my head or roll my eyes... but then there is that one among thousands where I really want to say something because I see a future trainwreck, with a lot of heartache and no good outcome for the buyer.

An example would be something like an adult desert female ball python being advertised as a great addition to a breeding program.

So, do you say something, or do you just figure it's buyer beware, grit your teeth, and not comment?

The particular ad I read recently did not involve a desert female ball python, but it is a morph with documented issues, not one I would ever try to produce, and if I inadvertently did I certainly wouldn't sell it.

Well in the case of the hypothetical female desert, selling a desert female is fine but saying it is a great addition for a breeding project is false advertisement, and no better than mislabeling a morph. and I would call it out, not because I like to stir the pot but because there are more and more new people coming to this hobby each day and they do not have the info that some of us who have been in it for years have.

Now if you want to tell me about the specific real case you can PM me.

Well I have to ask what morph are we talking here? I assume the issues aren't like the spider wobble.

PM sent, it's not an ad on this site.

ETA: Interesting, someone else put a warning on the ad.

No, it wasn't me.

There are more and more ball python morphs that seem to have issues/defects that affect them like wobbles, duck bills, potential for kinked spines, breeding problems etc. Years ago I got rid of all of my champagnes, sables, spiders etc because I didn't want to deal with the neurological issues. I know that most of these aren't that bad and many people think they're 'cute' and 'adorable' with their little quirks but I've had spiders that really were complete train wrecks and they kind of ruined it for me. But just because I don't like spiders does that mean I should warn others away from them?

I guess as long as people know the risks, I think it's fine. If people DON'T know the risks, I'd have to ask why they aren't doing their research first before buying the animal.



(I don't like bulldogs either, I think they have so many health problems that I don't understand why anyone would intentionally produce them. Yet, they command high prices and have a large following. :confuzd:)

The super motley boa, correct?

IMO - it's up to the buyer to research and know what they are buying.
As a seller, I would disclose known issues. In this particular case where the super is known to have longevity issues*, I wouldn't even sell it (wouldn't do the breeding that produced it either) but obviously this specific seller doesn't share that viewpoint.

*most die within the first two years, I do know someone that had one live over 5 but I don't know what ended up happening with him, I assume he passed.

For example, I was interested in picking up a mimosa. After further research I decided to pass since finding out champs can wobble. No one discloses that in the ads. It's up to the buyer to research.

Posting a warning on someone else's ad is in rather poor taste imo as helpful as the person is trying to be. But again, I also think the ad itself is in poor taste.

The snake in question is a super motley boa constrictor and they're well known for dying before reaching maturity. The defect goes beyond spider wobble or even female deserts; it would be like selling a super champagne.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...d.php?t=561457

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Originally Posted by AbsoluteApril

The super motley boa, correct?

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Yeah. Looks like the mods need to do some clean-up on the thread, it's getting ugly.

Ahh okay I logged off to come over here, I'll go back now. :)

edit - seller deleted it

Personally I believe it is a buyer responsibility to be educated on what they are buying in the end. As long as a seller doesn't lie, I don't see anything ethically wrong. However, I see it as a win/win to make sure a customer is aware of morph problems. People who do know gain respect for you and people who don't know may stop themselves from making a purchase that will be a headache for you later.

I recently had a (supposedly) reputable breeder tell me that you CAN breed desert females as long as there's another gene in there. Like, a desert spider female would breed just fine.

I did try to correct this idea but was shot down as completely misinformed and so I gave up.

I am always looking at local snake adds. If I see something real bad I will flag it. I just flagged a few today of a guy selling a baby normal he says is a little grumpy any he is holing the thing by the tip of it's tail in the pic. I say ok, but then look at the snake and it's like all bone. No muscle tone at all. Honest I think the thing is beyond even rescue at this point is how skinny it was. Makes me sick!

A side question here, what exactly is wrong with female deserts as breeders?? I see people post their breeding Desert Ghost females all the time (over on FB there's tons of BP pages)... Is it the desert gene by itself, or are only males good- and how did the desert gene come to be anyway if you can't breed it?

Desert 'ghosts' will breed just fine, with the mutation known simply as 'deserts' the females often die while laying eggs and if they do succeed in laying, the eggs never hatch

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Originally Posted by pastelballs

A side question here, what exactly is wrong with female deserts as breeders?? I see people post their breeding Desert Ghost females all the time (over on FB there's tons of BP pages)... Is it the desert gene by itself, or are only males good- and how did the desert gene come to be anyway if you can't breed it?

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there are 3 different morphs to talk about with this question

desert females have never laid fertile eggs to date, thus it is pretty much accepted as infertile, however the males breed just fine.
ghost (hypo) is a recessive morph that is all over the place, im sure you know what it is.
desert ghost is a recessive morph, no problem with it expect a stupid name and it is only stupid because it was named two names that were already established.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

there are 3 different morphs to talk about with this question

desert females have never laid fertile eggs to date, thus it is pretty much accepted as infertile, however the males breed just fine.
ghost (hypo) is a recessive morph that is all over the place, im sure you know what it is.
desert ghost is a recessive morph, no problem with it expect a stupid name and it is only stupid because it was named two names that were already established.

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Ah I see! So the desert ghost is actually something else entirely, or is it actually those two genes?

People should be informed about there purchases especially when it comes to animals.

Not everyone looks into the details and that is a huge problem in the animal / pet industry....I am not a breeder of any animals. I want to point out that this is strictly my opinion but i have family that do breed as a hobby.

Bad breeders misrepresent their animals, mill their animals and lie for profit which hurts the rest of the industry.

If you call them out i see no problem with it except their contempt; as long as it is justified. On the other hand sometimes people want an animal with a challenge, represent your animal as it is and if someone wants to buy it that is their decision.

if the facts are on that table and someone can provide for the animal appropriately despite its problems then there is no problem. Misrepresentation is paramount to thief... IMO.

Desert ghost is unrelated to desert and unrelated to ghost. Three different genes, just for some reason these three different genes ended up with similar names.

So what is wrong w desert gene morph that they die or are infertile??

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Originally Posted by CalypsobluAz

So what is wrong w desert gene morph that they die or are infertile??

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The females either slug out or end up egg bound and lose the clutch.

The physical cause isn't well known because no one has money to do research on reptiles.

As for the situation in the OP it's being handled in the Fauna BOI, and the seller isn't doing himself any favors.

So the females are just pretty pets (if tht morph is ur thng). Wow..

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In Healthcare (and personally) we (I) use the philosophy of "informed consent". That means the person offering the service is obligated to give all the pros AND CONS of the service, object, treatment.

If you are selling a house, you should disclose it was built on a former toxic waste dump, not leave me to google searching the property and street to discover it. If you are selling a particular surgical procedure in a high risk patient you better tell me that 20% end up on permanent dialysis as a complication. If you are selling a an animal, you should represent it accurately including known longevity and genetic issues specific to the breed.

Thats my personal philosophy and expectation. Needless to say, people disappoint me a lot. Including in healthcare.

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Originally Posted by Doggtyred

In Healthcare (and personally) we (I) use the philosophy of "informed consent". That means the person offering the service is obligated to give all the pros AND CONS of the service, object, treatment.

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In reptiles it's caveat emptor.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

In reptiles it's caveat emptor.

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As it should be.

I believe that if you're going to buy an animal, you should do your diligence as a buyer. Buyers aren't doing enough research these days. It's the "buy it now, do research later" attitude.

In the Desert female example, if you're breeding BPs and don't know that the Desert females don't produce viable clutches, then maybe you rushed into breeding. For a "breeder", this should be common knowledge. Doesn't matter how small your operation is.

With that said, sellers have a responsibility to be honest and knowledgeable about their product. Sellers who post false information need to be called out. Gotta try to keep this hobby clean and keep the scammers out as much as possible.

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