Can a breeder refuse a refund?

My friend just bought a champagne for $110 about 5 days ago. She woke up this morning to find her dead and her heart was broken. Naturally, she reached out to the seller. However , the seller said she can only have half of the money back (ONLY in pay pal, even though she paid cash) or another snake and all she has to offer is a Dessert and an Orange Ghost, genes she is not interested in. Frankly, she doesn't seem to care that my friends heart is broken. (Yes, she did QT!) We know she has more snakes that are worth the $110 l, but she refuses to offer them, only offering the less expensive morphs that are about half the worth. According to my friend, the snake was 2 years old and only 250g! What would you do?

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Do they have a site? And does that site talk about refunds or anything?

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Originally Posted by Kokorobosoi

Do they have a site? And does that site talk about refunds or anything?

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No its a local breeder to her

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Unless the breeder had a specific written guarantee you're probably out of luck and lucky to be getting even a partial refund. Many breeders will guarantee live arrival, but since they can't control how the animal will be kept, and there are so many things that can go wrong, few will make any guarantees after delivery.

As far as it being a 250g 2 year old animal, personally I would not have bought it in the first place.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Unless the breeder had a specific written guarantee you're probably out of luck and lucky to be getting even a partial refund. Many breeders will guarantee live arrival, but since they can't control how the animal will be kept, and there are so many things that can go wrong, few will make any guarantees after delivery.

As far as it being a 250g 2 year old animal, personally I would not have bought it in the first place.

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She didn't know. She was told a completely different size and when she got her she noticed how small she was and weighed her. She was also never handled and so my friend is convinced stress played a huge part in the death

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Five days is a long time for any breeder to even consider a refund, so your friend is extremely lucky she is getting half back. At 250g and 2 years that sounds like a sickly animal that shouldn't have been purchased in the first place. Proving that the animal had a preexisting condition before sale would be difficult, costly and time consuming.

If your friend wants to she can start a thread on the BOI portion of Faunaclassifieds to air complaints and receive feedback.

I would just accept the half back and never do business with that breeder again.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

As far as it being a 250g 2 year old animal, personally I would not have bought it in the first place.

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I feel for your friend, but I have to agree with this. I've got little ones less than 4 months old that size. Unfortunately, without some sort of health guarantee or similar from the seller/breeder there's little you can do. Is a necropsy planned? Beyond openly conversing with the seller and breeder, you could also post on the BOI and various FB inquiry groups. If this person is passing off unhealthy snakes, potential buyers should be warned.

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Originally Posted by gaitedappy

I would just accept the half back and never do business with that breeder again.

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This is probably her best option! It's sad but I'd take it as a learning experience and now she'll know not to buy an animal from someone like that. Saying one size, getting another and it being so underweight for supposedly being 2 are such big red flags.

Had to run to the store, but it looks like you got good advice. That's where I was going when I asked about a site with written guarantees. This just sounds iffy all the way around. Consider it a lesson learned. What I do with a reptile I'm not too knowledgeable on, is I treat it like buying a car. I bring a "mechanic" with me. (Someone who knows better). I've never been told I couldn't have someone more knowledgeable check the animal. The people I've bought from were glad I had a teacher instead of winging it. Maybe you can help your friend find a animal to replace the other one?

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Originally Posted by JoshSloane

Five days is a long time for any breeder to even consider a refund, so your friend is extremely lucky she is getting half back. At 250g and 2 years that sounds like a sickly animal that shouldn't have been purchased in the first place. Proving that the animal had a preexisting condition before sale would be difficult, costly and time consuming.

If your friend wants to she can start a thread on the BOI portion of Faunaclassifieds to air complaints and receive feedback.

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How is 5 days a long time for a breeder to consider a refund? I'd think it's short if anything. I could totally see getting a ball python, looking it over once and then trying to leave it alone in it's enclosure for at least a week to let it get acclimated. I kind of feel like it's a pretty low likelyhood that the buyer had any wrongdoing. I mean what could an owner do in 5 days that would be their fault and cause the death of an animal? I'd figure most thing would be visible by just seeing a picture of the body. If I sold a snake and it died within 5 days I'd probably ask for a picture(s) to ensure that physical harm didn't happen and that it was the snake I sold, and then issue a refund.

Of course though it doesn't matter what anyone else would or would not do, I'd say the best bet is to take what they'd give you and just move on. I'd agree with the post on BOI and that the snake shouldn't have been purchased. I know the buyer was misled, but if I was buying a snake and I got one that was vastly different weight, then I'd be talking to the seller asap.

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Originally Posted by SCWood

She didn't know. She was told a completely different size and when she got her she noticed how small she was and weighed her. She was also never handled and so my friend is convinced stress played a huge part in the death

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Just out of curiosity, why didn't she complain or try for a refund in the first place?

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Originally Posted by bks2100

How is 5 days a long time for a breeder to consider a refund? I'd think it's short if anything. I could totally see getting a ball python, looking it over once and then trying to leave it alone in it's enclosure for at least a week to let it get acclimated. I kind of feel like it's a pretty low likelyhood that the buyer had any wrongdoing. I mean what could an owner do in 5 days that would be their fault and cause the death of an animal? I'd figure most thing would be visible by just seeing a picture of the body. If I sold a snake and it died within 5 days I'd probably ask for a picture(s) to ensure that physical harm didn't happen and that it was the snake I sold, and then issue a refund.

Of course though it doesn't matter what anyone else would or would not do, I'd say the best bet is to take what they'd give you and just move on. I'd agree with the post on BOI and that the snake shouldn't have been purchased. I know the buyer was misled, but if I was buying a snake and I got one that was vastly different weight, then I'd be talking to the seller asap.



Just out of curiosity, why didn't she complain or try for a refund in the first place?

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Because she fell in love with her and thought she could help her. She didn't know she was too far gone

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In the breeding world, 5 days is an exceptionally long time. Most breeders I know only guarantee live arrival and that's it. Years back I used to offer a three day guarantee and most other breeders thought I was insane for doing so. The fact of the matter is that once the animal reaches its destination, the breeder has zero control over how the animal is handled, housed or treated. As we have seen over and over on these forums, rookie snake keepers can sometimes have outlandishly wrong ideas about how to properly care for and handle an animal.

That being said, I absolutely believe that breeders should be responsible for providing a healthy and thriving animal for purchase.

Your friend is SOL. Take half and learn from the experience. I'm not going to speculate who's fault it is.

Since your friend saw the animal in person and still moved forward with purchasing the animal, means either she was uneducated about how large the BPs should be at that age or just ignored the warning signs.

Kids, this is why you do research, research and research. Whether you do the research into the breeder you're buying from or the animal you're going to buy.

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In this situation it sounds like the seller may have sold a sick animal, and there should be warnings posted about them in the appropriate places. That being said, I agree that 5 days is a long time, especially with sensitive animals like reptiles. I think that your friend should have contacted the seller the moment they realized the wrong size of the animal. My earlier thought of accepting the half money back and never doing business with that seller agin still stands. I only now add what other have said about starting threads to warn others. Another note, I would not, for any reason accept a new animal from that seller, just the money back they offered.


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I'd let her know to always google the name of the breeder. I'm hesitant to buy from anyone that doesn't have reviews. Also always ask age and weight and it's eating habits before buying. I won a BP in an auction and found out afterwards that it was a year old and only 300g. Had I known that, I wouldn't have bought it. I would tell her to leave a review on Fauna BOI.

they can refuse to refund but stupid from a business point of view but if it was only 350g and 2 that's really really worrying anyway that's the weight of off my 8month old normal morph

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Originally Posted by Galaxygirl

I'd let her know to always google the name of the breeder. I'm hesitant to buy from anyone that doesn't have reviews. Also always ask age and weight and it's eating habits before buying. I won a BP in an auction and found out afterwards that it was a year old and only 300g. Had I known that, I wouldn't have bought it. I would tell her to leave a review on Fauna BOI.

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But if the animal was not as advertizes that is the breeders wrong and not a miscare from the buyer. Though the good thing to do was to talk to the breeder, it does not change that the snake could not have completely changed size from somwthing done on arrival.

I dont know how breeder in the herp community do it, but thats a one way sur way to get bad rep.

Im sad for the snake but as said above, take the money, and never go there again. Bext time theres a problem say it to the breeder. If then they dont take responsability, you might have something to go against them but right now you only have what you say. A necropsy is also an option (thats the first thought I had)

Yes, the breeder is definitely wrong for having incorrectly advertised the animal, as well as for having an underfed and likely malnourished animal that clearly wasn't fit for sale. However, the buyer needed to refuse the sale immediately when she first saw the animal in person. I know that she fell in love with her, but you cant keep the animal and get your money back at the same time.

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Originally Posted by JoshSloane

Yes, the breeder is definitely wrong for having incorrectly advertised the animal, as well as for having an underfed and likely malnourished animal that clearly wasn't fit for sale. However, the buyer needed to refuse the sale immediately when she first saw the animal in person. I know that she fell in love with her, but you cant keep the animal and get your money back at the same time.

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This is correct. The buyer had a chance to put eyes and hands on the animal before putting down any cash - if she has misgivings about the snake's condition she should have walked away then. It's very different when you pay for an animal that gets shipped to you and it was misrepresented.

I'm not surprised breeders don't give a guarantee past live arrival. On this site we've seen inexperienced keepers end up with sick or dead animals through ignorance or bad advice. Unregulated heat, too much or too little heat, improper use of insecticides or chemicals in the enclosure, unmonitored live feedings, lack of proper quarantine, etc. - the seller has no control so why should there be a guarantee?

totally agree you should know if a snake is fit or not and there should not be any type of refunds with buying any type of animal but in no way am i sticking up for the breeder as they should never have a reptile up for sale knowing it is unhealthy. that gives other breeders bad names and makes it hard for this industry to survive

Offering a guarantee past live arrival is very risky for any seller considering that once the animal is received you do no longer have control on husbandry. Over the years I have seen people cooking their snake, dropping something on their head, closing tubs and breaking the snake's name etc in just a few days after arrival.

I think a 50% refund is actually very fair most breeders would not issue any refund at all.

As for the size if true right now it's hearsay, it would indicate a poor feeder (which happens) and that falls back on the buyer to A/ Know what they are buying by asking the right questions and B/ Make a smart decision based on the information or lack there of provided by the breeder.



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Originally Posted by bcr229

The buyer had a chance to put eyes and hands on the animal before putting down any cash - if she has misgivings about the snake's condition she should have walked away then. It's very different when you pay for an animal that gets shipped to you and it was misrepresented.

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This right here is the biggest reason I've been so resistant to purchasing a snake I can't go and see in person. When it comes right down to it, even a picture can be misleading because of x, y, or z. That doesn't mean I won't ask questions and request photos prior to making arrangements to see the animal, but I feel much more comfortable about purchases when the option to see the animal in person is available.

Since she saw the snake and decided to buy it/keep it, then she made the decision to purchase it. 5 days is plenty of time for many things to kill a perfectly healthy animal.

If it really was 250g and 2 years old, that's really far off. But your friend would have to show proof that the snake was that size and that it was stated to be that old.

Not handling a ball python is generally not an issue as far as stress. They do quite well without handling, then getting handled, as long as your friend wasn't stressing the snake by handling it excessively right after moving it to a new cage from the breeder. Even then, it shouldn't die from being handled a lot, even if it was never handled prior.

Because your friend decided to buy/keep the snake after seeing it, I'm surprised the breeder offered anything back.

Wow that's not right at all and I recently rescued a year and a half old pastel that was 135 grams I fed it a pinky rat and it died 2 days later and I got blamed by the rescue that it was my fault because they had it for 6 months and it was fine and ate pinky rats

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Originally Posted by dylanjwicklund

Wow that's not right at all and I recently rescued a year and a half old pastel that was 135 grams I fed it a pinky rat and it died 2 days later and I got blamed by the rescue that it was my fault because they had it for 6 months and it was fine and ate pinky rats

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who was the rescue org. sounds like they need to learn something about the animals they are fostering or adopting out.

A local one near Vancouver bc and yea makes me wonder about all their other reptiles

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But I'm pretty sure they called them self the urban reptile society

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Originally Posted by SmoothScales

This right here is the biggest reason I've been so resistant to purchasing a snake I can't go and see in person. When it comes right down to it, even a picture can be misleading because of x, y, or z. That doesn't mean I won't ask questions and request photos prior to making arrangements to see the animal, but I feel much more comfortable about purchases when the option to see the animal in person is available.

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While there definitely are some bad apples out there, I have truly had some great experiences with various breeders around the country. I think it's most important to establish a conversation about the animal before any payments are made, and get all the information that you can. BOI on Faunaclassifieds is a good resource, as well as simply googling the name.

One thing that I highly recommend is to NOT have any animals shipped directly to your home, but rather to a FedEx or UPS facility instead. Once you receive the package, open it IN the store, not at home. This way if you open the box and the animal shipped does not match the description or expectations, you can refuse to accept the shipment, and not take the animal into your possession. This leaves no potential questions as to how the animal was treated or cared for while in your home.

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Originally Posted by JoshSloane

One thing that I highly recommend is to NOT have any animals shipped directly to your home, but rather to a FedEx or UPS facility instead. Once you receive the package, open it IN the store, not at home. This way if you open the box and the animal shipped does not match the description or expectations, you can refuse to accept the shipment, and not take the animal into your possession. This leaves no potential questions as to how the animal was treated or cared for while in your home.

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The one and only time I ever did this, the attendant freaked out because I was opening a box with a SNAKE :ohmygod: in it. I've decided since then that it wasn't worth the hassle and I've never had a problem with a snake shipped to my home.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

The one and only time I ever did this, the attendant freaked out because I was opening a box with a SNAKE :ohmygod: in it. I've decided since then that it's wasn't worth the hassle and I've never had a problem with a snake shipped to my home.

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Sometimes the employees will be hesitant, but mostly they are just interested. You don't have to pull the snake out and pass it around, usually just opening the box and taking a peak at the snake lets me know if it is the animal I ordered and if its healthy.

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Originally Posted by JoshSloane

Sometimes the employees will be hesitant, but mostly they are just interested. You don't have to pull the snake out and pass it around, usually just opening the box and taking a peak at the snake lets me know if it is the animal I ordered and if its healthy.

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I didn't even get the box all the way open and she started to panic. Just wasn't worth it to me.

Fear of snakes is one of the more common phobia's and while you or I may think that being scared of a ball python is silly and ridiculous, it's very real to the person experiencing the fear. I think people have a reasonable expectation to not be forced to face their worst fears in their own workplace.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

I didn't even get the box all the way open and she started to panic. Just wasn't worth it to me.

Fear of snakes is one of the more common phobia's and while you or I may think that being scared of a ball python is silly and ridiculous, it's very real to the person experiencing the fear. I think people have a reasonable expectation to not be forced to face their worst fears in their own workplace.

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I just take the box, step aside and take a look in. No one has to face any fears.

wouldn't have made any difference since she was already a little anxious handling a box marked 'Live Reptiles'

I feel pretty strong about this but I don't want to hijack this thread any further. If you want to start a new thread on this subject I'll be happy to join in.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

wouldn't have made any difference since she was already a little anxious handling a box marked 'Live Reptiles'

I feel pretty strong about this but I don't want to hijack this thread any further. If you want to start a new thread on this subject I'll be happy to join in.

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You can start a new thread if you want, this is probably my last input for this subject though.

Breeders rightfully protect their own financial and business interests with terms of sale and shipping policies. As buyers we have to be aware of this and prepared to protect ourselves in the event something accidentally or otherwise occurs that leaves us with a sick animal, or one unrepresentative of the intended purchase. The longer the animal is in the buyer's possession for, the less leverage there will be in contesting the charges. Additionally, I have read some live arrival guarantees that are actually void if the animal is shipped directly to a home, and not to a fedex facility.

It is pretty easy to go to your car, look the snake over quickly and check for any visual signs of illness before bringing the animal into your home. I don't always do this, but if the seller isn't widely known in the community it is best to take precautions.

Maybe things have changed, but back in day if you opened a box, that WAS considered accepting it.

Sure you could send it back, but you had to pay new shipping fees.

Last time I got something at the post office, opening it was acceptance. Had to pay to return it. Pretty sure its the same with fed ex. (maybe two months ago this was)

We are drifting away here the original question is

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Can a breeder refuse a refund?

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not bout opening packages at various ship center to facilitate easy return, while an interesting subject a new thread would be better suited. Thanks

Thank you for all of the answers! I understand everybody's points of view of the subject. I think my friend has some new insight and now she's going to be much more careful with purchases. For now, the seller told her to take her time to think it over and get back to her.

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After reading all of this over again.
An animal out of my control for 5 days to someone I don't know anything about?
Yeah she is lucky to be getting any type of offer for credit.
Yes you can kill a healthy animal in a couple days.
Also if it hadn't died, I an not sure I would want it in my QT rack either.
This is a case by case though.